are speed limits treated as targets

[Sly Old Fox]

evidently not from my train this morning. Our driver was consistently driving well under the limit, on green signals, and managed to lose a chunk of time and delay thousands of passnegers (on our train and thise behind) as a result.

Reported for investigation, obviously.

Some drivers are scared of driving and shouldn’t be doing it. If you’re too nervous to drive the train at line speed you shouldn’t be anywhere near the front of a train. I once arrived into a terminus platform where the driver had to take power three times along the platform to reach the buffer stops, as their approach was way way too slow.

Accelerating for longer and braking later when running late are all part of the dark arts of train driving, and should be used when appropriate. Please note that ‘later’ doesn’t equal ‘too late’.

 

[bahnause]

I assume on "congested" line even if the train is running early it should still be run as fast as (legally, safely and smoothly) possible generally to "get out of the way" of other stuff? Am particularly thinking about freight on lines that alternate between dual line and passing loops?

IE if a DB Cargo train is booked to arrive in the Down Loop at Claypole at 15:50, it's 15:25, and it's just passed Grantham it isn't going to make friends and influence people by sauntering there at 30mph.

Our goal is to be as close to the planned path as possible. It is the most efficient way to drive. Every passenger train gets an optimised speed profile, that is calculated two hours before departure. This is the "long term" plan. An early train on a busy line is not any better than a late train. Another system is used for (more or less) automated short term conflict resolution. This adaptive control sends live data onto the drivers iPad containing speed recommendations. The goal is to avoid trains having to stop at a red signal.

Due to the less predictable nature of (international) freight trains, the solution with the optimised speed profile wouldn't work. They are quite often not even close to the planned path. We use a different approach. As the network has a very high level of automation and all the signal boxes are connected in a network and operated from control centres, the entire timetable of a late/early train is rescheduled right to the end. This new timetable is also transmitted to the iPad. Every change to the timetable by the signaller is forwarded in this way, as are any adjustments to the route (diversions). The timetable becomes dynamic. Short-term planning with adaptive control works in the same way as for passenger trains.

 

[FD99]

Yes. Limits are targets. But not in the sense a car driver would consider it.

When a route is planned, it’s planned using the line speed and the traction capabilities. Usually performed by an experienced driver for the timing runs. They target the maximum speeds and brake accordingly. Everything is done with safety in mind and time is allotted for various reasons. So yes, if my line speed is 90mph, I’m targeting 90mph and then holding.

Driving on the road you have to pander to the weakest people. The skillset for car drivers is very, very broad. Therefore speeds are limited to what is perceived to be in everyone’s wheelhouse.

On the railway, we are all taught to a certain standard that means we’re all in a much narrower skillset that is of much higher quality than Jeff that’s had 6 lessons and has passed his car test with 14 minors.

We need to get to the target speeds to keep time. And to help other services keep time too. So you’re damn right it’s a target.

Do we have to always be on target?? No, no we don’t. Things change and everything is dynamic. Do we go 100%, 100% of the time? No. This would be lunacy. But the simple answer to your simple question is yes.

 

[Bald Rick]

It doesn’t matter if you know the King of England himself. I guarantee Thameslink won’t be telling their drivers to brake later for stations.

Oh I wasn’t suggesting that in general, although I do know of some drivers who have been advised of the usual braking points for stations having been observed braking far too early.

But I think a driver driving with a sawtooth profile, never getting above 80 on a unit than can do 100 with clear signals, no TSRs, already running late and losing a load more time and delaying other trains does need a conversation to see whats going on.

 

[LowLevel]

Not so much a train that's left origin early as a result of a conscious decision or specific request, but rather one that's been allowed to run early en-route on a more spontaneous basis. I used to try and keep freight moving as a signaller if I knew that I could get it at least to the next available regulating point.

On reflection, this only really works in the context that I was thinking of when I wrote that, in our case where we're the fastest trains on the route approaching a major junction. A bit different in the Claypole example, where a RT freight booked into the loop could have a late-running express (that should've been well in front) rapidly bearing down behind.

Sounds like a very similar approach. I don't routinely drive below linespeed other than where it drops as a result of coasting. The only exception really is coming off the Pennines where there's often little point powering up to linespeed as the gradient will soon get you there anyway. We've one job where you stop at Chinley and then have so much time in hand that you can just trundle away up to about 30mph on half power, and then shut off and you'll hit the magic 70mph right at the bottom of the hill if you've judged it right, all without losing time.

(My absolute favourite remains the regular early morning ECS opportunity to coast for 31 miles, at speeds as low as 20mph in places, all the way from Edale to Eccles!)

Funnily enough I was on 1R50 recently and the Hazel Grove signaller achieved an absolutely beautiful bit of signalling - I noticed we were running on greens through Disley Tunnel and through the junction rather than being stopped on the chord to let the Buxton go through first. The Bobby judged it to the second, had us through first as we were slightly early, the Buxton left Woodsmoor just as I saw all the signals ping to green from the back cab and we somehow managed to get into Stockport nearly 10 minutes early

As far as drivers go ours I think make a pretty good all round effort in terms of being where they need to be at the right time.

 

[BrummieBobby]

I guess this is an example of where misinterpretation has become supposed fact. Probably started as “don’t ever anticipate a signal clearing”, then “drive on the basis that approach controlled signals don’t exist”, and eventually becoming “approach controlled signals don’t exist”.

The first of those three things doesn’t really equal the other two.

Conversely, I always try and avoid stopping trains at a signal that clears on approach.

"It clears on approach that one"
"It clears on approach that one"
"It always comes off on approach that one"

Until the one day that it is held for a conflicting movement.

 

[LowLevel]

Oh I wasn’t suggesting that in general, although I do know of some drivers who have been advised of the usual braking points for stations having been observed braking far too early.

But I think a driver driving with a sawtooth profile, never getting above 80 on a unit than can do 100 with clear signals, no TSRs, already running late and losing a load more time and delaying other trains does need a conversation to see whats going on.

We have one particular driver who has been a dawdler since day 1 - they've been reported no end of times for constantly losing time in running (being their guard is extremely frustrating because they'll lose you time to the point of losing your path, with the attendant missed connections and phone calls from control about mounting sub threshold delays which for some years I just reply to their surprise with "send it to the driver") but despite this they actually seem surprised on doing things like changing ends with them and will say "I've no idea how we've lost time!".

The professional thing to do as someone who actually likes them as a person would be to say "you're already 5 minutes late and you were dawdling along at 51 in a 60 for 10 miles" but the polite British part of me can't bring myself to do so

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Oh I wasn’t suggesting that in general, although I do know of some drivers who have been advised of the usual braking points for stations having been observed braking far too early.

But I think a driver driving with a sawtooth profile, never getting above 80 on a unit than can do 100 with clear signals, no TSRs, already running late and losing a load more time and delaying other trains does need a conversation to see whats going on.

Correct, that should happen. It won’t though. The way the modern railway is, that driver is more likely to be praised for driving defensively and minimising the risk if cautionary signals were encountered.

Some parts of the railway would be delighted not to run trains, there’s no risk at all then!

 

[The Planner]

Yes. Limits are targets. But not in the sense a car driver would consider it.

When a route is planned, it’s planned using the line speed and the traction capabilities. Usually performed by an experienced driver for the timing runs. They target the maximum speeds and brake accordingly. Everything is done with safety in mind and time is allotted for various reasons. So yes, if my line speed is 90mph, I’m targeting 90mph and then holding.

Not quite, timing runs may take place, but not always, and they are only done to validate the running times NR produce if something is awry.

 

[12LDA28C]

There's not much point driving a train at line speed if there's a load of recovery time built into the sectional running times and you can coast at a lower speed and still maintain punctuality. Any TOC that has DAS fitted to their trains will expect their drivers to follow the DAS advice and drive their train accordingly.

 

[Western Lord]

We have one particular driver who has been a dawdler since day 1 - they've been reported no end of times for constantly losing time in running (being their guard is extremely frustrating because they'll lose you time to the point of losing your path, with the attendant missed connections and phone calls from control about mounting sub threshold delays which for some years I just reply to their surprise with "send it to the driver") but despite this they actually seem surprised on doing things like changing ends with them and will say "I've no idea how we've lost time!".

The professional thing to do as someone who actually likes them as a person would be to say "you're already 5 minutes late and you were dawdling along at 51 in a 60 for 10 miles" but the polite British part of me can't bring myself to do so

I was about to question whether there were train drivers who are the equivalent of road drivers who insist on driving along a 60 mph road at 40 in perfect conditions, maybe there are.
I am reminded of something written over fifty years ago by the late Cecil J. Allen who was recording times on a train in Scotland that was losing time to the extent that at the terminus he went forward to ask the driver if there was a problem with the locomotive. The reply was " I dinnae care what the timetable says, 75 an hour is quite fast enough for any train to go".

 

[Trains1]

Funnily enough I was on 1R50 recently and the Hazel Grove signaller achieved an absolutely beautiful bit of signalling - I noticed we were running on greens through Disley Tunnel and through the junction rather than being stopped on the chord to let the Buxton go through first. The Bobby judged it to the second, had us through first as we were slightly early, the Buxton left Woodsmoor just as I saw all the signals ping to green from the back cab and we somehow managed to get into Stockport nearly 10 minutes early

As far as drivers go ours I think make a pretty good all round effort in terms of being where they need to be at the right time.

don't suppose you happen to know the speed limit on the between MAC and SOT?

 

[manmikey]

evidently not from my train this morning. Our driver was consistently driving well under the limit, on green signals, and managed to lose a chunk of time and delay thousands of passengers (on our train and those behind) as a result.

Reported for investigation, obviously.

It is entirely possible to be following a slower train but leaving enough headway for the signals to be green, we are taught not to "chase signals" if your 100mph train is following a 75mph freight on a 100mph line then you reduce your speed to drop back enough to be on green signals and match the speed of whatever you are following. In most cases your route knowledge will let you know what's ahead of you and when it will be out of your way.
Hanging on the yellow and red signals of a moving train Infront of you is not best practice.

 

[The Planner]

There's not much point driving a train at line speed if there's a load of recovery time built into the sectional running times and you can coast at a lower speed and still maintain punctuality. Any TOC that has DAS fitted to their trains will expect their drivers to follow the DAS advice and drive their train accordingly.

SRTs shouldn't have slack in them, it will inherently be there to an extent due to rounding to ½ minutes, but they shouldn't be way out. DAS is only good if the timetable behind it is good.

 

[Starmill]

Do they reward drivers for driving efficiently, for example? I’ve never heard of that happening.

They used to do it that way in France! The so-called "coal payment" (prime charbon). Of course not something I've ever heard of as being a norm in Great Britain.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

SRTs shouldn't have slack in them, it will inherently be there to an extent due to rounding to ½ minutes, but they shouldn't be way out. DAS is only good if the timetable behind it is good.

It's probably more the case that the SRTs in certain areas are unsuitable, but which nobody has the resources to correct for such a small gain? Changes to differential speed limits, raised max permissible speeds, changes to traction types, different modes of electro-diesels, loco hauled with loads that are known to be slightly wrong, lots of this stuff seems to have cropped up in the past few years and understandably not really a priority to fix tiny things when they sort of work.

 

[jfollows]

don't suppose you happen to know the speed limit on the between MAC and SOT?

Macclesfield and Stoke-on-Trent?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

In https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...(North) Sectional Appendix September 2024.pdf if so

 

[Lurcheroo]

SRTs shouldn't have slack in them, it will inherently be there to an extent due to rounding to ½ minutes, but they shouldn't be way out. DAS is only good if the timetable behind it is good.

Some of ours are atrocious. from a main stop(Harlech) which you’re quite likely to leave on time from as it’s a booked passing point and there is a level crossing from crews to operate so there is always a bit of waiting time you get 6 minutes to the next which is a request stop (Llandanwg). I get up to half the line speed and let it coast, if we don’t stop, I’ll still be 30 seconds early through it. Crawling again to Pensarn and Llanbedr (both requests) and then your chasing your tail through the next 3 request stops into Barmouth.
There was talk that they’re going to re-time it all but they may wait for the 197’s.

 

[Starmill]

Our goal is to be as close to the planned path as possible. It is the most efficient way to drive. Every passenger train gets an optimised speed profile, that is calculated two hours before departure. This is the "long term" plan. An early train on a busy line is not any better than a late train. Another system is used for (more or less) automated short term conflict resolution. This adaptive control sends live data onto the drivers iPad containing speed recommendations. The goal is to avoid trains having to stop at a red signal.

Due to the less predictable nature of (international) freight trains, the solution with the optimised speed profile wouldn't work. They are quite often not even close to the planned path. We use a different approach. As the network has a very high level of automation and all the signal boxes are connected in a network and operated from control centres, the entire timetable of a late/early train is rescheduled right to the end. This new timetable is also transmitted to the iPad. Every change to the timetable by the signaller is forwarded in this way, as are any adjustments to the route (diversions). The timetable becomes dynamic. Short-term planning with adaptive control works in the same way as for passenger trains.

How fascinating!! Thank you.

I've always thought that it must be an odd experience as a continental driver to experience as a passenger on a British train the "limousine" stop; not actually like a rubber-tyred vehicle, just so smoothly brought to a stop that if you closed your eyes you wouldn't even know for sure at what point the train had definitely stopped. Of course the schedule often doesn't allow for quite that level of finesse and that's as it should be, but as Tomnick pointed out it's clear some British drivers pride themselves in their stopping ride quality when they are on time.

 

[Acey]

"Do they reward drivers for driving efficiently, for example? I’ve never heard of that happening."
I did get awarded a "coasting award mug " on the SE some years ago,( think it was when Connex were the TOC )

 

[hexagon789]

don't suppose you happen to know the speed limit on the between MAC and SOT?

It varies a fair amount but the absolute maximums are:

110 PS - Permissible Speed, the ordinary base limit
115 MU - Multiple Unit, certain classes of MU may run at this speed
125 EPS - Enhanced Permissible Speed, these are the 'tilt' speeds which Class 390 Pendolinos (and tilt-enabled 221s) can travel at.

 

[The Planner]

Some of ours are atrocious. from a main stop(Harlech) which you’re quite likely to leave on time from as it’s a booked passing point and there is a level crossing from crews to operate so there is always a bit of waiting time you get 6 minutes to the next which is a request stop (Llandanwg). I get up to half the line speed and let it coast, if we don’t stop, I’ll still be 30 seconds early through it. Crawling again to Pensarn and Llanbedr (both requests) and then your chasing your tail through the next 3 request stops into Barmouth.
There was talk that they’re going to re-time it all but they may wait for the 197’s.

Slack SRTs are just as difficult to alter as short ones, more so on lines like that as its a free performance buffer that isn't really harming anyone. Robbing Peter to pay Paul there sounds like the answer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

It's probably more the case that the SRTs in certain areas are unsuitable, but which nobody has the resources to correct for such a small gain? Changes to differential speed limits,

SRTs will get changed if there is a defined benefit that a speed limit is being changed for.

raised max permissible speeds,

As above

changes to traction types

Depends if its a complete change to all services, if not, then the existing SRTs tend to stay.

, different modes of electro-diesels,

Should be timed as what they run under.

loco hauled with loads that are known to be slightly wrong,

As above with the traction types. The faster units tend to get padded to allow random unit generators. Freight will always be the max tonnage bid by the FOC, so its always going to run early if lighter loaded.

 

[Bald Rick]

Correct, that should happen. It won’t though. The way the modern railway is, that driver is more likely to be praised for driving defensively and minimising the risk if cautionary signals were encountered.

I have examples like that were a train that lost 7 minutes on a busy metro railway (not Thameslink) - called it in, tapes were pulled, and I was told by management it was being driven to an exemplary standard. I invited the mangaer concerned to opine on his view of a) what a high perfromjng railway looked like, and b) the driving standard of the vast majority of other drivers who keep to time on the same section, and how that compared to ‘exemplary’

There's not much point driving a train at line speed if there's a load of recovery time built into the sectional running times and you can coast at a lower speed and still maintain punctuality.

There is, if you have a train following you, either directly behind or through a conflicting junction. If you are late, so will the train be behind

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2024 ==

It is entirely possible to be following a slower train but leaving enough headway for the signals to be green, we are taught not to "chase signals" if your 100mph train is following a 75mph freight on a 100mph line then you reduce your speed to drop back enough to be on green signals and match the speed of whatever you are following. In most cases your route knowledge will let you know what's ahead of you and when it will be out of your way.
Hanging on the yellow and red signals of a moving train Infront of you is not best practice.

Entirely possible, yes, although that relies on knowing what you are following, which many drivers won’t know.

In my example, the driver had at least 6 green signals in front of them the whole time, and there was no obvous reason for not travelling at or close to linespeed, as the infrastructure and unit was in full working order. (I’ve checked).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Slightly related, but what about a driver who has been off for some time or had previously had a "one-under" and had just returned to work. Would he not be more cautious at first...? Just asking

 

[FD99]

Slightly related, but what about a driver who has been off for some time or had previously had a "one-under" and had just returned to work. Would he not be more cautious at first...? Just asking

Yes. But not to the extent of losing minutes at a time. If you’re off for a long time you have a phased return to work where you would go out with another driver or instructor and go over your routes again. By the time you go out on your own you should be back to standard. You may take it easy at first but if you lose more than 2 minutes because of confidence, I’d suggest that driver simply isn’t ready to be back at work.

 

[bramling]

SRTs shouldn't have slack in them, it will inherently be there to an extent due to rounding to ½ minutes, but they shouldn't be way out. DAS is only good if the timetable behind it is good.

Presumably though you can have slack if, for example, the journey is timed for 75 mph traction, but in practice the stock & line are 100 mph? Or for that matter as an example the timings are for something like a class 317, but the actual stock is something more powerful like a 387?

 

[jfollows]

Presumably though you can have slack if, for example, the journey is timed for 75 mph traction, but in practice the stock & line are 100 mph? Or for that matter as an example the timings are for something like a class 317, but the actual stock is something more powerful like a 387?

For example, when Liverpool-Manchester was electrified, the services remained timed as DMUs for quite a long time after.

 

[bramling]

How fascinating!! Thank you.

I've always thought that it must be an odd experience as a continental driver to experience as a passenger on a British train the "limousine" stop; not actually like a rubber-tyred vehicle, just so smoothly brought to a stop that if you closed your eyes you wouldn't even know for sure at what point the train had definitely stopped. Of course the schedule often doesn't allow for quite that level of finesse and that's as it should be, but as Tomnick pointed out it's clear some British drivers pride themselves in their stopping ride quality when they are on time.

It’s possible to stop smoothly without losing time. Even on the ultimate metro which is LU, a top-class driver will throw the handle into off & release a second or two before the final stop, which makes it imperceptible. Likewise with braking it isn’t about how heavily the train brakes, but keeping a constant rate from start to finish, and avoiding sudden changes in brake rate.

In my experience LNER drivers are often notably good at this.

(I should add that I’m not saying others aren’t, just that I tend to use LNER more so it’s something I’ve noticed).

 

[12LDA28C]

Slightly related, but what about a driver who has been off for some time or had previously had a "one-under" and had just returned to work. Would he not be more cautious at first...? Just asking

If that driver was losing time and delaying their train they would be required to fill out a delay slip or similar. 'Being more cautious' would most likely not be accepted as a valid reason for losing time.

 

[TreacleMiller]

I have examples like that were a train that lost 7 minutes on a busy metro railway (not Thameslink) - called it in, tapes were pulled, and I was told by management it was being driven to an exemplary standard. I invited the mangaer concerned to opine on his view of a) what a high perfromjng railway looked like, and b) the driving standard of the vast majority of other drivers who keep to time on the same section, and how that compared to ‘exemplary’

Popular in the mess room then? Do you drive?

There is no reward for arriving early, or even on time.

There is usually tea and busicuits for making an error.

You might dislike the current culture. The current culture would likely have meant people would still be walking around alive today that are not.

 

[12LDA28C]

Our goal is to be as close to the planned path as possible. It is the most efficient way to drive. Every passenger train gets an optimised speed profile, that is calculated two hours before departure. This is the "long term" plan. An early train on a busy line is not any better than a late train. Another system is used for (more or less) automated short term conflict resolution. This adaptive control sends live data onto the drivers iPad containing speed recommendations. The goal is to avoid trains having to stop at a red signal.

A slightly more basic version of this principle is the basis for the DAS (Driver Advisory System). The goal is also to avoid trains having to stop at red signals as well as trains being operated more efficiently and in the case of diesel traction, using less fuel. This often results in trains proceeding at well below line speed in order to maintain the required spacing between trains with live information being transmitted direct to the DAS display so that drivers can adapt their driving technique accordingly.