Apt

[ole man]

Dont know if there has been a previous discussion on this, but has anybody tried to restore the Apt to working order? I know the one in crewe looks like its in good condition, how much would it cost and would it be feasible.

I for one would be intrested in a Apt railtour,and i think it would get a lot of intrest.The tilting technology has vastly improved since its heyday so surely it must be possible,would be better than watching it rot away in crewe :roll:

 

[sprinterguy]

The APT-P train at Crewe underwent a cosmetic restoration in 2003, funded by Virgin I believe, but this did not extend to the electrics and mechanics of the beast, which given the woe begone condition the exterior had ended up in before its' restoration are probably in pretty poor condition.

The other, NRM owned, APT-P power car (49006) has recently been moved to the Electric Railway Museum near Coventry from Locomotion at Shildon for restoration. I don't know how extensive this restoration is intended to be; the vehicle is in a very dilapidated condition on the outside at least and I'm not sure its' move will have improved its' fortunes as the Electric Railway Museum does not have any covered accomodation at the moment as far as I am aware, where at least it was under cover protected from the elements, for the first time in several years, when it was at Shildon.

As for an APT railtour, it is something I would absolutely love to see. However, I don't think that with the number of passenger vehicles remaining that such a tour would be able to cover its' operating costs unless extortionate prices were charged.

 

[WillPS]

The difficulty would be in testing it. There's not much (any?) overhead electrified preserved track, let alone any TASS stuff to test the tilt.

 

[ainsworth74]

The difficulty would be in testing it. There's not much (any?) overhead electrified preserved track, let alone any TASS stuff to test the tilt.

Might be able to get some time on the Old Dalby track to do the testing, also I thought one of the things about the APT was that it didn't need TASS (or an 80s equivalent) for its tilt equipment as it was all controlled on board with nothing track side.

 

[ole man]

Surely it could be tested anywhere with ole,after all new built emu's and electric traction have to be tested, melton mowbray test track has live ole which the pendolino's used, you could use the wcml like the new 379's and 390's there must be paths available.

It was used a restaurant so are the seats still inside? Also you don't have to activate the tilt system on apt,just getting it started would be great.
To all, instead of buying old diesels and electrics to which there hundreds out there,invest some of your money into a worthy cause,it would sell out every railtour.

 

[sprinterguy]

It was used a restaurant so are the seats still inside?

At least some of the carriages still retain their seating (Intercity 80?), it's possible that all of them do.

 

[ChrisCooper]

APT didn't need TASS to tilt, it used it's onboard sensors, and it remained it gauge when fully tilted.

I think the complexity and the short length of surviving train would be the biggest problems when it comes to preservation. AC Loco Group oviously have the skills to restore electric locos to running order (so far everything they run has been pretty much straight from service, but they are trying to restore one of the early locos to running condition), but they can haul conventional coaches. With the ATP you would have to put a lot of time and money into getting and keeping not only the traction side working, but the tilt, the air-con, the doors, the bogies and all that. Other than tilt that's the same as any preserved train, but at least conventional coaching stock has plenty of oppertunity to earn money, the APT would not. Isolating tilt would make things easier and cheaper, but still it would be expensive. I think there is as much chance of seeing either ATP running again as seeing Concord flying again.

 

[RyanB]

If enough money was invested, then I don't see why the APT could run again, the question is how much money would be required to restore even one? Each set was 14 cars long, so to fit with existing platforms there would have to be some cars taken out the sets. But if people were serious about getting one up and running again and making a railtour every once in a while, there would likely be many who would love to take a trip on one, I'm fascinated by this train and would love to have the opportunity to ride it.

 

[talltim]

isn't Apt something different to APT?

 

[ainsworth74]

Each set was 14 cars long, so to fit with existing platforms there would have to be some cars taken out the sets.

That isn't going to be an issue as there are only 7 surviving cars 2x DTS 2x NDM 2x TBF and 1x TRSB.

 

[ChrisCooper]

That isn't going to be an issue as there are only 7 surviving cars 2x DTS 2x NDM 2x TBF and 1x TRSB.

and there we see a big problem. 5 passenger carrying coaches, of which only 3 are standard class (and those being DTSs and a TRSB won't have the best capacity anyway). It's not going to get a lot of passengers on, so that means fares have to be high to break even which means less wanting to travel which means trips are less viable which means less income to cover upkeep. There is also the issue of one surviving buffet, so providing a 1st class meal service would be interesting. Perhaps the TBF at the none buffet end could be converted to standard class.

Restore a loco and you can haul lots of coaches and get lots of bums on seats. The lack of capacity is a problem for unit preservation in general (probably one reason there are no mainline preserved units). Running a railtour has a lot of fixed costs regardless of the capacity of the train, paths, planning, crew etc, so it's best to get as many passengers on as possible, hence why tours are typically very long formations.

 

[Lampshade]

isn't Apt something different to APT?

Well I suppose it's a very apt discussion

 

[ChrisCooper]

isn't Apt something different to APT?

Apt is a word, meaning inclined (as in they are apt to do this). Technically the thread is about that as if we are being pedantic, as some are apt to be, initials should be capitalised.

I don't think APT stands for anything other than Advanced Passenger Train from a railway viewpoint. ATP is the similar one, Automatic Train Protection.

 

[western Champion]

And suppose someone could throw enough money at it to make it a runner, there would be massive problems from Network Rail with route clearence and electrical interference issues. A lot has changed infrastructure wise since the APT last ran. Knowing how reliable it was in service if it did suffer problems and caused delays to scheduled TOCs could the operator afford it.

 

[ole man]

And suppose someone could throw enough money at it to make it a runner, there would be massive problems from Network Rail with route clearence and electrical interference issues. A lot has changed infrastructure wise since the APT last ran. Knowing how reliable it was in service if it did suffer problems and caused delays to scheduled TOCs could the operator afford it.

Not a lot has changed to the infrastructure,the ole is still the same,the track is well...still track if not better,platforms have not been altered from APT days,i cant see what infrastructure problems would get in its way.
Using infrastructure as an excuse is a poor one,the only problem would be money, which if i had i would look seriously into what needs doing.
Who currently owns APT i know its at crewe hertige, sitting there looking at its predessor's going past everyday,its looks so much nicer than the italian pile of crap going up and down the wcml

 

[WillPS]

APT didn't need TASS to tilt, it used it's onboard sensors, and it remained it gauge when fully tilted.

I think the complexity and the short length of surviving train would be the biggest problems when it comes to preservation. AC Loco Group oviously have the skills to restore electric locos to running order (so far everything they run has been pretty much straight from service, but they are trying to restore one of the early locos to running condition), but they can haul conventional coaches. With the ATP you would have to put a lot of time and money into getting and keeping not only the traction side working, but the tilt, the air-con, the doors, the bogies and all that. Other than tilt that's the same as any preserved train, but at least conventional coaching stock has plenty of oppertunity to earn money, the APT would not. Isolating tilt would make things easier and cheaper, but still it would be expensive. I think there is as much chance of seeing either ATP running again as seeing Concord flying again.

Of course - I'm a div, my bad!!

 

[E&W Lucas]

Heart talking - I want to see it run!

Head moment - very probably impossible.

I'm not sure how much parts commonality it has with other rolling stock, eg Mk IV coaches, but if there isn't any, sourcing spares will be the biggest problem. The more technically advanced the loco/ coach, the harder it is to use an alternative. If it's not been kept "live", expect problems with coach wiring/ electronics.

Then there is the fact that the design didn't actually work properly in the first place. Hydraulic lines freezing from memory. Modify it, and you have the equally challenging alternative of type approval for the mainline network.

Cost wise - you can loose several tens of thousands of pounds into a Mk 1 coach, which is a pretty straightforward piece of engineering. The cost of restoring this set is going to be astronomical. Start at a million, and keep going!

 

[90019]

its looks so much nicer than the italian pile of crap going up and down the wcml

The one descended from the APT and assembled in Birmingham...

Tbh, I just can't see it happening, it would require a rediculous amount of money to get it going again, and then you'd have to charge astronomical prices for a railtour with it because of the lack of capacity in the coaches that are still around.

 

[route:oxford]

Cheaper to rebuild from scratch using the original diagrams?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Then there is the fact that the design didn't actually work properly in the first place. Hydraulic lines freezing from memory. Modify it, and you have the equally challenging alternative of type approval for the mainline network.

I don't think that would be a big problem. They got it working in the end, and it was able to run reliably at 125mph, which is the fastest it could run without cab signalling. The freezing hydralics was the hydrokinetic brakes, which were designed to allow it to stop from high speeds with 100mph signal spacing, but it managed to run at 125mph without (afterall it had rheostatic on the powercars and disks on the trailers). I think the tilt was sorted in the end, but I think that would cost a lot to get working again and keep working, especially due to the lack of parts (the system is quite different to what is on the 390s and 221s, despite those being developed from it).

I still think it's the lack of coaches that is the killer, plus the fact it's still a lot of train to store and maintain when it's not going to get a great deal of use. As the Vulcan group have found, along with many other restoration groups, getting something running is expensive, keeping something running is just as expensive if not more so.

 

[Trog]

Might be able to get some time on the Old Dalby track to do the testing, also I thought one of the things about the APT was that it didn't need TASS (or an 80s equivalent) for its tilt equipment as it was all controlled on board with nothing track side.

There used to be plywood encased transponders all over the WCML for use by the APT, they may have been more to do with speed than tilt. But what ever they were there are very few left now, I only know of one between Euston and Crewe.

 

[WillPS]

There used to be plywood encased transponders all over the WCML for use by the APT, they may have been more to do with speed than tilt. But what ever they were there are very few left now, I only know of one between Euston and Crewe.

Probably the things which triggered the dynamic "Max. Speed" indicator on the dash, which allowed the train to pass beyond 125mph. Something we are still waiting for outside HS1.

 

[Trog]

You could be right there as they usually had a speed value on them, see 125 above.

They were often used to plug holes in the ED fleet once the APT project was cancelled, which is where a lot of them disappeared to. As the S&T could be funny about you using troughing lids, and estate agent signs were hard to find out in the countryside.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I don't think that would be a big problem. They got it working in the end, and it was able to run reliably at 125mph, which is the fastest it could run without cab signalling. The freezing hydralics was the hydrokinetic brakes, which were designed to allow it to stop from high speeds with 100mph signal spacing, but it managed to run at 125mph without (afterall it had rheostatic on the powercars and disks on the trailers). I think the tilt was sorted in the end, but I think that would cost a lot to get working again and keep working, especially due to the lack of parts (the system is quite different to what is on the 390s and 221s, despite those being developed from it).

I still think it's the lack of coaches that is the killer, plus the fact it's still a lot of train to store and maintain when it's not going to get a great deal of use. As the Vulcan group have found, along with many other restoration groups, getting something running is expensive, keeping something running is just as expensive if not more so.

Wasn't it a bit like the Leader? They got the thing working to some extent, but nothing like what it was designed for?

Weren't there ride issues as well - pax feeling seasick? Not bashing the things - they're an icon of my childhood, which I was fortunate enough to see on shed and in action. Just not sure that they ever reached a standard that would allow them to grace the network again.

Does anyone know what the assistance arrangements for them were? Was it a meccano adapter coupling like a HST?

 

[mallard]

(probably one reason there are no mainline preserved units)

Apart from the Hastings DEMU. I think at least one of the preserved 141s is mainline certified too. Also, the Brighton Belle project...

In fact, I think the Brighton Belle and Tornado have shown that the "impossible" can be done in preservation. However, I doubt the APT will be restored any time soon, the best chance may well come when the IC225s are withdrawn in maybe 20 years time. Since the 91s are practically APT-P powercars with cabs (so a good source of parts) and the Mk4s are similar enough that they could be inserted into the APT to provide extra trailers (albeit sans tilt) then it might actually have a chance.

 

[Barrett M95]

Mk4s don't have articulated bogies though like the non driven APT cars though.

 

[Schnellzug]

isn't Apt something different to APT?

Maybe it's meant to be about preserving an APTIS machine.


Anyway, never mind this electric thing, I'd love to see APT-E running again. I doubt that it would ever be economical, mind, bearing in mind the number of seats & the cost of fuel. Nevertheless, doesn't everybody think it'd be fun?

 

[mallard]

Mk4s don't have articulated bogies though like the non driven APT cars though.

You could still insert them between the original trailers and the NDMs.

 

[driver9000]

The C-APT system used the transponders to give speed values to the driver. Changes in speed were accompanied by an alarm which needed to be acknowledged or the brakes applied. It was the display that gave the driver authority to exceed the conventional line speed, if the train didn't recieve a signal from the transponders the screen went blank, the alarm sounded and the train had to return to the normal linespeed. I have some instructions on its use somewhere along with a list of the sections of the WCML that didn't have transponders should anyone be interested in seeing them I'll attempt to upload them.

 

[Flying Snail]

Wasn't it a bit like the Leader? They got the thing working to some extent, but nothing like what it was designed for?

They were prototype sets for a proposed fleet to completely replace the WC IC Loco-Hauled sets. I believe the later plan was for the power units to be the driving car/s rather than centre units as on the P. It would be speculation to say if the P units would have remained in service if the production fleet had happened.

Weren't there ride issues as well - pax feeling seasick? Not bashing the things - they're an icon of my childhood, which I was fortunate enough to see on shed and in action. Just not sure that they ever reached a standard that would allow them to grace the network again.

The travel sickness issue was caused by two things. The original specification was for the tilt action to completely counteract the lateral forces created by cornering. This was achieved but it was later realised that by doing so it made people more suceptible to travel sickness. This is due to the brain being confused by visual inputs of movement conflicting with the inner ear which is fooled into registering no movement by the tilt system.

The second issue was that the main problem with travel sickness was widely publicised by a bunch of journalists that BR had invited along to sample the train and subsequently plied with free booze. The effects of alcohol greatly enhanced the sickness and the journos took great pleasure in rubbishing BR and their new train leaving a public impression of the APT being an abject failure that it never overturned.

The first issue was solved by adjusting the tilt to not 100% counteract lateral movement which considerably reduces the problem. The second issue was solved by not inviting the aforementioned pieces of crap on to the train again.

It could be said that the ability to cause travel sickness was a confirmation of the success of the tilt mechanism.

All the major technical issues were sorted by the time the project was cancelled and the incredibly stupid PR based decision to scrap most of the stock was taken.

By that point the units had been running for several years alongside the regular trains with no fanfare and reasonable reliability.


I have no doubt that if a full unit in as withdrawn condition could be magiced up today it would have no difficulty whatsoever deputising for a pendo on a 2011 WC diagram.


Failing someone extremely wealthy popping up with a passion for AC traction (or me winning the euromillions) I cannot see how APT-P could ever turn a wheel in anger again. Just restoring the existing cars to running order would be very costly never mind all the additions and modifications needed to pass current requirements to allow it run as it should on the mainline.