Apt

[zn1]

APT-P was a success as a pre-production series we have had for many years its successor in traffic albeit without the tilt packs fitted in the Inter city 225 squadron, as for it ever running in anger again, never say never, The Belle project is a classic example of this, as is the tornado.

APT-P were the final testbeds of the technology, it was way ahead of its time and its a testament to the years of work done at DY RTC that we have tiliting trains.

how much to get it to mainline standards ? You would have to ask the APT restoration Teams at Shildon and crewe, but if i was to put a cost on return you wouldnt get much change out of £2million quid, it would need a full C1 repair, the only places that could do that would be wolverton and derby now i would guess Plus all OTMR TPWS, etc
as for failures - open their bonnets and u can attach to anything with buffers, twin air & loco screw !!

To travel on an APT-P ? well it would pay for itself
purely my opinions

 

[Lampshade]

I went to see it at Crewe on Monday, aside from the superficial cosmetic restoration it's in a pretty grim condition

I do like the idea of having an Inter-City Grill though

 

[Yew]

I would say the best route would be restoring it as a static display (including the interior). Then looking at getting it running when 225's are withdrawn (maybe even loco hauled by a 91 with an apt bodyshell? To reduce mechanical restoration costs, and to increase passenger capacity. And use the apt driving car as a dvt?)

Chances are it would be impossible to get full tilt on it, but maybe the mk4's could be modified, then some joint on the 91 to let it push it, having all the driving happening from the dvt.

 

[Wyvern]

Cheaper to rebuild from scratch using the original diagrams?

If there's anything wrong with the electronics it used transistors and logic chips that aren't available any more.

That's where the Pendolino scored - the availability of fast microprocessor logic. Also track/train radio comms for the balises that the Resesarch Dept was only just developing.
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Then there is the fact that the design didn't actually work properly in the first place. Hydraulic lines freezing from memory. Modify it, and you have the equally challenging alternative of type approval for the mainline network.

That was the conventional air brakes
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Mk4s don't have articulated bogies though like the non driven APT cars though.

If its APT-P doesnt it have conventional bogies?

Afterthought: If its APT-E you also have the problem of resurrecting the Rover gas turbines.

 

[Yew]

What power rating are those rover turbines, and could they be replaced by a pantograph if it's cheaper?

 

[sprinterguy]

What power rating are those rover turbines, and could they be replaced by a pantograph if it's cheaper?

It has eight turbines rated at 298hp each. Converting the APT-E to electric operation? hock: The mind boggles. I think it'd be nigh on impossible and prohibtively expensive.

 

[Yew]

Ahh, I'm guessing it uses a similar system to a hst? Where it is electric, but a different flavour than ohle electric so would be impractical.


What is that value in mw? It might be possible to restore it, we have had old Ruston TA's running since the 60's still in service. At full load for 50 years apart from a few servicing periods

 

[sprinterguy]

What is that value in mw? It might be possible to restore it, we have had old Ruston TA's running since the 60's still in service. At full load for 50 years apart from a few servicing periods

222kW per turbine, so a total of 1.78MW for the whole four coach formation.

 

[Wyvern]

Oh dear. It is in a state isn't it!

That looks like the centre power car of APT_P

Is that all there is?

 

[jrhilton]

Oh dear. It is in a state isn't it!

That looks like the centre power car of APT_P

Is that all there is?

Another picture here, agan not looking good:

http://www.the-siding.co.uk/extras/pages/APTpcar.htm

 

[Wyvern]

http://www.the-siding.co.uk/extras/pages/APTpcar.htm

(The link doesnt seem to work every time)

Jeez. Even the lamp post is looking a bit sick.

That's really upset me.

And HSFV1 - though I should be grateful that it still exists at all given the disgraceful lack of interest by the NRM.

But of course it wasn't LNER.

 

[es373]

Hydro kinetic braking. Apparently it was much better than rheo at high speed.

 

[Wyvern]

qué? ..

 

[es373]

Qué pasa

 

[sprinterguy]

Oh dear. It is in a state isn't it!

That looks like the centre power car of APT_P

Is that all there is?

That's one of the two APT-P power cars still extant, specifically 49006, the one owned by the NRM and recently shifted to the Electric Railway Museum near Coventry (where that CCTV image originates from) for restoration, so hopefully it should get better! The other power car (49002) is, of course, still at Crewe Heritage Centre as part of the complete APT-P rake.

 

[zn1]

wouldnt it be nice to have the british designed types of high speed train in one place one day....one day a pendy will be preserved and it will have to take its place in the hall of fame as it owes its life to the brains of derby ! just a line of poking noses and history - it would be one hell of a pic and it would need one hell of a long yard (willesden would do )

apte
252/253/254
370/0
IC225
390/0 !! all under one roof !!


but then that would be britain ****ting a miracle in preservation

 

[Rugd1022]

Willesden / Wembley will probably be shut by then...!

 

[Schnellzug]

Afterthought: If its APT-E you also have the problem of resurrecting the Rover gas turbines.

That shouldn't be impossible; one of the prototype Leyland gas trubine trucks, which i think use the same engine, has recently been returned to running order.

 

[t_star2001uk]

Are the turbines still on board though or were they removed at the end of the test period????

 

[WillPS]

That's one of the two APT-P power cars still extant, specifically 49006, the one owned by the NRM and recently shifted to the Electric Railway Museum near Coventry (where that CCTV image originates from) for restoration, so hopefully it should get better! The other power car (49002) is, of course, still at Crewe Heritage Centre as part of the complete APT-P rake.

Why was a a PowerCar on it's own even preserved? It's not really better than nothing...

...unless it becomes a spare for the working set, if that ever happens.

 

[sprinterguy]

Why was a a PowerCar on it's own even preserved? It's not really better than nothing...

...unless it becomes a spare for the working set, if that ever happens.

I'm not at all sure. Presumably the NRM thought that the technology contained within the power cars was more historically significant than the passenger trailers (Though I don't really understand that logic, as surely the most significant feature of APT is its' ability to tilt).

 

[ACE1888]

My initials are A.P.T
Just thought I'd share that with you all...

 

[mallard]

Why was a a PowerCar on it's own even preserved? It's not really better than nothing...

...unless it becomes a spare for the working set, if that ever happens.

A full APT trainset had two powercars, both in the middle of the train. The original intention was to be more like the HST with powercars at the ends, but BR didn't like the idea of running a HV line along the length of the train or running with two pantographs up.

I'm not sure why they didn't then just put both powercars at one end though, maybe because that would have required two different powercar designs? One with a cab and one without... Although even then they could have just had two "cabbed" powercars back-to-back at one end of the train...?

 

[Wyvern]

. . .. . The original intention was to be more like the HST with powercars at the ends, but BR didn't like the idea of running a HV line along the length of the train . . . . . ..

Against the rules I believe.

I

'm not sure why they didn't then just put both powercars at one end though, maybe because that would have required two different powercar designs? One with a cab and one without... Although even then they could have just had two "cabbed" powercars back-to-back at one end of the train...?

At the time they were wary about propelling.

 

[boing_uk]

Ignoring for the moment the significant-amount-of-money question and assuming certification for the original APT-P trailers was granted...

Would it be possible to build new trailers for the surviving APT-P to the original design specifications and would they be covered by grandfather rights - seeing as they are simply a replication of the other trailer vehicles?

The reason I ponder this is that obviously Tornado has set a bit of a precedent in that it is an entirely new build improvement of an old design. Could the same argument be used for the trailers?

Judging by the costs of the Class 180, at £5.5M per trainset (or about £1M per coach) you would be looking at about £2.5-3M per trailer given all the gubbinry that would be needed for a much more complex trailer and of course inflation since the Class 180 was introduced.

 

[Lampshade]

Ignoring for the moment the significant-amount-of-money question and assuming certification for the original APT-P trailers was granted...

Would it be possible to build new trailers for the surviving APT-P to the original design specifications and would they be covered by grandfather rights - seeing as they are simply a replication of the other trailer vehicles?

The reason I ponder this is that obviously Tornado has set a bit of a precedent in that it is an entirely new build improvement of an old design. Could the same argument be used for the trailers?

Judging by the costs of the Class 180, at £5.5M per trainset (or about £1M per coach) you would be looking at about £2.5-3M per trailer given all the gubbinry that would be needed for a much more complex trailer and of course inflation since the Class 180 was introduced.

Yes I suppose it may be possible if you ignore the money issue, and the fact that the original plans are probably long gone and the fact that most of the original team and drivers are now dead.

Personally I'd love to see APT-P run again but it'll never happen

 

[boing_uk]

Yes I suppose it may be possible if you ignore the money issue, and the fact that the original plans are probably long gone and the fact that most of the original team and drivers are now dead.

The same could be said perhaps for Tornado...

 

[ole man]

I know one that is still alive

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes I suppose it may be possible if you ignore the money issue, and the fact that the original plans are probably long gone and the fact that most of the original team and drivers are now dead.

1980 wasn't that long ago! In fact one of the fellas who drove the APT-P on its' high speed test runs over Beattock still works for DB Schenker, driving 325s on the WCML and 90s on the Caledonian Sleepers up to Carstairs.

 

[Wyvern]

Yes I suppose it may be possible if you ignore the money issue, and the fact that the original plans are probably long gone and the fact that most of the original team and drivers are now dead.

Personally I'd love to see APT-P run again but it'll never happen

The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated

I still see familiar names cropping up on various websites from time to time.

Much of the Research Division's paperwork passed to Serco and is held by their Railway Documentation and Drawing Services. Some have been abstracted and posted on http://www.agrri.org.uk/BR_Research.htm the Advisory Group for Rail Research and Innovation