APT workings

[Yorkshireman16]

Hi i am looking for times/dates ect of any APT,s that worked in service i understand they only worked for a short time around 1985 could anyone point me in the right direction thank you i/a

 

[Sun Chariot]

APT-P entered revenue service end of 1981, running between Glasgow Central and London Euston on 7-, 8- and 9-Dec.

The night of 7/8-Dec, much of the country was under snow. The temperature aggravated existing problems, and 8-Dec's turn caused its hydrokinetic brake fluid to freeze.
9-Dec's southbound working was curtailed at Crewe, for the same reason.
APT was then withdrawn from revenue earning service, 9-Dec 1981 until mid 1982.

Revenue earning services ran intermittently latter 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985; this website has a photo of a London to Glasgow turn dated 22-Aug 1984.

The Faces & Formations of the Class 370 APT-P (Advanced Passenger Train)

Non passenger testing continued through 1985 and aborted at the beginning of 1986.

I photographed one of the sets dumped at Crewe Works, May 1986.

 

[jfollows]

For example, 1S86 in the 14/5/84 to 12/5/85 working timetable attached.

Compare with 1H71 today which is booked 5 minutes quicker to Stafford.

The improvement is not surprising - being able to pass Rugby at 125mph today for example is a significant improvement over the APT’s speed at the time.

 

[ThirteenArches]

But don't forget the rebuilding of the WCML in the 2000s for 150mph running that never happened.

 

[Sun Chariot]

But don't forget the rebuilding of the WCML in the 2000s for 150mph running that never happened.

Do you have a source for that? The work - to my knowledge - was to enable more parts of the line to be raised to 125mph and thus reduce overall journey times and increase capacity.

 

[hexagon789]

Do you have a source for that? The work - to my knowledge - was to enable more parts of the line to be raised to 125mph and thus reduce overall journey times and increase capacity.

Originally Euston to Crewe was to be upgraded to permit 140mph, but not 150.

 

[ThirteenArches]

Either of them, I'll stand corrected - but it still makes APT look good on the old Blue Electric lines.

 

[Magdalia]

The night of 7/8-Dec, much of the country was under snow. The temperature aggravated existing problems, and 8-Dec's turn caused its hydrokinetic brake fluid to freeze.
9-Dec's southbound working was curtailed at Crewe, for the same reason.
APT was then withdrawn from revenue earning service

The APT was on the front cover of Private Eye on 18 December 1981, with a speech bubble coming out of the cab saying: "welcome aboard the APT stopping for repairs at Penrith, Crewe, Glasgow, Penrith, Crewe..."

 

[Sun Chariot]

Hello @Yorkshireman16 did you get all the info you wanted?

 

[Halwynd]

I only managed to travel by APT once.. it was Summer 1984 one mid-afternoon and I don't think it was in timetabled passenger service at the time, but don't quote me. I was waiting at Preston for the Glasgow - Cardiff Principality which had sat down at Penrith. BR announced a Preston - Crewe relief which appeared in the form of an APT. As a young enthusiast I'd only ever seen it passing stations at speed, so I was made up to say the least. By Leyland we were going like a scalded cat and although only a short journey it remains a railway memory which gives me a big smile.

Edit, just checked and The Principality was only introduced in May 1984, and as @jfollows shows above, the APT was back in the working timetable from that month. But was it in the public timetable? I don't know.

 

[Helvellyn]

I only managed to travel by APT once.. it was Summer 1984 one mid-afternoon and I don't think it was in timetabled passenger service at the time, but don't quote me. I was waiting at Preston for the Glasgow - Cardiff Principality which had sat down at Penrith. BR announced a Preston - Crewe relief which appeared in the form of an APT. As a young enthusiast I'd only ever seen it passing stations at speed, so I was made up to say the least. By Leyland we were going like a scalded cat and although only a short journey it remains a railway memory which gives me a big smile.

Edit, just checked and The Principality was only introduced in May 1984, and as @jfollows shows above, the APT was back in the working timetable from that month. But was it in the public timetable? I don't know.

Never heard of The Principality before, and don't recall any services to South Wales from Scotland via the WCML so it can't have lasted more than a year or so.

 

[The exile]

Never heard of The Principality before, and don't recall any services to South Wales from Scotland via the WCML so it can't have lasted more than a year or so.

Was still running in the 86-87 t/table (07.30ish off Cardiff)

 

[WesternLancer]

I only managed to travel by APT once.. it was Summer 1984 one mid-afternoon and I don't think it was in timetabled passenger service at the time, but don't quote me. I was waiting at Preston for the Glasgow - Cardiff Principality which had sat down at Penrith. BR announced a Preston - Crewe relief which appeared in the form of an APT. As a young enthusiast I'd only ever seen it passing stations at speed, so I was made up to say the least. By Leyland we were going like a scalded cat and although only a short journey it remains a railway memory which gives me a big smile.

Edit, just checked and The Principality was only introduced in May 1984, and as @jfollows shows above, the APT was back in the working timetable from that month. But was it in the public timetable? I don't know.

APT probably wasn’t in the public timetable at that time. But I traveled on it on 24 August 1984.

I think that was a relief. Vey impressive.

 

[jfollows]

Edit, just checked and The Principality was only introduced in May 1984, and as @jfollows shows above, the APT was back in the working timetable from that month. But was it in the public timetable? I don't know.

The timetable extract shows NA meaning “not advertised”

 

[Halwynd]

Never heard of The Principality before, and don't recall any services to South Wales from Scotland via the WCML so it can't have lasted more than a year or so.

The Principality ran from May 1984 to May 1987. It departed Scotland in two portions, 12:45 from Glasgow and 12:40 from Edinburgh, joined at Carstairs, arriving Cardiff at around 20:00. In the other direction it departed Cardiff, as @The exile' says, at 07:35, again split at Carstairs.

The northbound service was diagrammed for 2x50 Cardiff to Birmingham and at first was named The Principality too, but I think in the last year it was re-named The Caledonian. The southbound service was The Principality throughout.

There's a couple of window labels on Flickr for the northbound service showing the branding:

principality

Explore alistair.p37025's 37715 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Carriage Label: Glasgow Central "The Caledonian"

British Railways late 1980s / early 1990s Carriage label BR21717/55 NT64 Cardiff Central to Glasgow Central "The Caledonian" I fund my Flickr membership, scanner and software myself. So, if you like my pictures please consider buying me a coffee! www.buymeacoffee.com/seanl © Sean Lancastle...

www.flickr.com

The timetable extract shows NA meaning “not advertised”

Thanks for that.

 

[jfollows]

"Principality" no longer named in 1985/6, public timetable pages attached.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Principality ran from May 1984 to May 1987. It departed Scotland in two portions, 12:45 from Glasgow and 12:40 from Edinburgh, joined at Carstairs, arriving Cardiff at around 20:00. In the other direction it departed Cardiff, as @The exile' says, at 07:35, again split at Carstairs.

The northbound service was diagrammed for 2x50 Cardiff to Birmingham and at first was named The Principality too, but I think in the last year it was re-named The Caledonian. The southbound service was The Principality throughout.

There's a couple of window labels on Flickr for the northbound service showing the branding:

principality

Explore alistair.p37025's 37715 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Carriage Label: Glasgow Central "The Caledonian"

British Railways late 1980s / early 1990s Carriage label BR21717/55 NT64 Cardiff Central to Glasgow Central "The Caledonian" I fund my Flickr membership, scanner and software myself. So, if you like my pictures please consider buying me a coffee! www.buymeacoffee.com/seanl © Sean Lancastle...

www.flickr.com

Thanks for that.

Thanks for the info. I was aware of the various 'Scot' sufficed named CrossCountry services that ran to/from Glasgow and Edinburgh/Aberdeen but I guess the one to South Wales wasn't successful enough if it went by May 1987.

 

[Halwynd]

"Principality" no longer named in 1985/6, public timetable pages attached.

The plot thickens...

I've just dug out a copy of The Railway Magazine book on titled trains and it says as follows:

This train was unusual in that it ran through three different countries - Scotland, England and Wales.

Launched by British Rail's Cross Country sector in the 1980s, it started its journey in two portions, leaving Edinburgh at 12:40 and Glasgow at 12:45, combining usually at Carlisle. It then called at Preston, Crewe, Birmingham, Bristol Parkway and Newport, arriving in the capital of the Principality of Wales at 19:53 (sometimes continuing to Swansea).

Although it had a northbound equivalent, that train carried a different name ('The Caledonian').

The Principality was in service as a titled train from 1984/5 to 1987.

I *think* there's a number of errors in all of that:

1. I'm not aware that the portions were timetabled to join/split at Carlisle, it was always Carstairs.
2. The calling points are not entirely accurate.
3. The northbound service was definitely named The Principality for TT year 1984/5.

Additionally, did Cross Country as a sector exist in 1984 - I thought at that time everything was just InterCity? Also, I don't ever recall it continuing to Swansea but perhaps my memory is fading...

Appreciate you uploading the timetable pages - thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2025 ==

Thanks for the info. I was aware of the various 'Scot' sufficed named CrossCountry services that ran to/from Glasgow and Edinburgh/Aberdeen but I guess the one to South Wales wasn't successful enough if it went by May 1987.

Very welcome. I remember it was usually quite a busy train between Scotland and Crewe, perhaps Birmingham too, but perhaps less busy south of Birmingham.

 

[Morayshire]

The APT was on the front cover of Private Eye on 18 December 1981, with a speech bubble coming out of the cab saying: "welcome aboard the APT stopping for repairs at Penrith, Crewe, Glasgow, Penrith, Crewe..."

Private Eye No. 522 - Probably the Finest Advanced Passenger Train of All Time
Funnily enough, the Railway Archive has a copy of that cover - link is above

 

[Magdalia]

Private Eye No. 522 - Probably the Finest Advanced Passenger Train of All Time
Funnily enough, the Railway Archive has a copy of that cover - link is above

I got to spend a happy hour looking at all my 1980s Private Eyes to find it!

The bit I'm puzzled about is the Andre Previn* "Probably the finest Passenger Train of All Time" quote. A quick search suggests that it is a reference to an advert for the Ferguson Videostar "The best video value of all time", that featured Previn, mixed up with the Carlsberg "Probably the best lager in the world" slogan.

* for Eric Morecambe, Andy Preview.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

APT-P entered revenue service end of 1981, running between Glasgow Central and London Euston on 7-, 8- and 9-Dec.

The night of 7/8-Dec, much of the country was under snow. The temperature aggravated existing problems, and 8-Dec's turn caused its hydrokinetic brake fluid to freeze.
9-Dec's southbound working was curtailed at Crewe, for the same reason.
APT was then withdrawn from revenue earning service, 9-Dec 1981 until mid 1982.

Revenue earning services ran intermittently latter 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985; this website has a photo of a London to Glasgow turn dated 22-Aug 1984.

The Faces & Formations of the Class 370 APT-P (Advanced Passenger Train)

Non passenger testing continued through 1985 and aborted at the beginning of 1986.

I photographed one of the sets dumped at Crewe Works, May 1986.

Recall seeing APTs just North of the junctions for Morecambe on a family holiday in Spring 1986- I would only have been 4 years old at that point, but was already obsessed with trains. It rained almost every day but myself and my older brother loved being able to watch both the APTs and electric loco-hauled services from the front window of our tent. It was definitely 1986 as our mother was pregnant with my little brother at the time- he was born in August of that year. Presumably the movements we witnessed would have been among the very final runs of the sets, no idea if they were in service though.

 

[03_179]

Sorry to Hijack the thread but it's linked.
I think it was early 80swhenthere was a run from Glasgow to Euston.
At Euston I was able to get in the cab and the then director/board member Cyril Beasdale was there.
Anyone else know the date units numbers and if poss the headcode?

 

[Bald Rick]

I remember my Dad taking me out to Watford to see it come through - probably in that wonderful summer of ‘84. Although we didn’t have a working timetable (didn’t even know of such a thing), he knew it left Euston at 1630. I said we needed to be there for 1640. He reckoned 1645. I was right!

 

[BeijingDave]

For example, 1S86 in the 14/5/84 to 12/5/85 working timetable attached.

Compare with 1H71 today which is booked 5 minutes quicker to Stafford.

The improvement is not surprising - being able to pass Rugby at 125mph today for example is a significant improvement over the APT’s speed at the time.

A surprise to me that it made calls at Stafford and Crewe.

Remember seeing it whizz through Warrington Bank Quay as a youth around this time. Distinctly remember someone telling me it only had a Preston call en route.

 

[WesternLancer]

A surprise to me that it made calls at Stafford and Crewe.

Remember seeing it whizz through Warrington Bank Quay as a youth around this time. Distinctly remember someone telling me it only had a Preston call en route.

In 84 when I took it I’m pretty sure it was non stop Euston to Preston. Where we got off.

I think my image of material from the trip including my £1 ticket (family railcard child price then) has uploaded separately.

 

[jfollows]

In 84 when I took it I’m pretty sure it was non stop Euston to Preston. Where we got off.

I think my image of material from the trip including my £1 ticket (family railcard child price then) has uploaded separately.

I'm sure you're right; I thought it would be interesting to post the working timetable extract but this was probably more theoretical than reality, the situation with the APT was highly fluid at the time and what actually ended up working and when was often totally different I'm sure. I didn't go on it myself although I could have done - I guess I thought that at some point it would become normal and I was wrong in that.

The up WTT working was even worse - 1M25 08:02 Glasgow to Euston, arrived at Crewe 11:09.5, departed 11:16.5, then called at Rugby 12:05-12:14.5, Euston 13:19, with 16 minutes' engineering "box" time and 4 minutes' pathing time in the schedule. It was during the period the WCML was being maintained during the day, between morning and evening peaks, so a run on the slow lines for part of the journey was factored in with the extra time allowance. But even with the same allowance a regular service needed 2h3m for the Crewe-London non-stop run, reduced to 1h55 in the morning peak.

Anyway, I have the timetable in my collection so I think it's interesting to post the extract.

 

[trebor79]

APT-P entered revenue service end of 1981, running between Glasgow Central and London Euston on 7-, 8- and 9-Dec.

The night of 7/8-Dec, much of the country was under snow. The temperature aggravated existing problems, and 8-Dec's turn caused its hydrokinetic brake fluid to freeze.

This isn't quite correct. It was the standard air brake lines that froze, not the hydrokinetic system. Being prototype there were no air driers and the pipework was sub-optimal with low points where water could collect and freeze.

 

[Sun Chariot]

This isn't quite correct. It was the standard air brake lines that froze, not the hydrokinetic system. Being prototype there were no air driers and the pipework was sub-optimal with low points where water could collect and freeze.

Thanks for the clarification. The APT web source I used is, l guess, incorrect.

 

[trebor79]

Thanks for the clarification. The APT web source I used is, l guess, incorrect.

It's a common urban myth.

 

[Sun Chariot]

@Halwynd and @WesternLancer I am rather envious that you both travelled in one.
During 1984 and 1985 I regularly saw it from my school and - sometimes at lunchtime - passing my local WCML station.
My O Level learning, I am sure, took second fiddle to the APT.