Anytime Standard to Off-Peak First (zero fare excess issues)

[Bletchleyite]

it's only an issue for some TOCs, and is only an issue because they choose for it to be so.

Quite.

To make it clear, it is a management issue - staff are acting with the best of intentions based on incorrect training wilfully given with management blessing.

By the way, this seems to be the same "nothing for nothing" TOC who used to offer free Weekend First to Anytime ticket holders!

 

[CyrusWuff]

By the way, this seems to be the same "nothing for nothing" TOC who used to offer free Weekend First to Anytime ticket holders!

If KnowledgeBase is to be believed, they still do.

 

[premier01]

See this post regarding change of route excess, which is also to the appropriate fare, which includes an example.

Thanks Yorkie, it is a shame the example provided isn't in the context of exvessing standard to 1st tickets

 

[premier01]

Finally in work so able to look at the page of the iKB CyrusWuff just quoted as my memory was it was clear and indeed it is. In bold at the top of the page is the definition of "appropriate fare". Virgin are taking the proverbial.

Would you be able to post an extract from what you have found today?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If KnowledgeBase is to be believed, they still do.

I thought it was but there is no longer any reference to it on their website.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I thought it was but there is no longer any reference to it on their website.

As long as space and resources allow

 

[infobleep]

Whilst I appreciate this isn't a railway ticket, when I buy software on Google's Play store, even if it costs £0.00, I am issued with a receipt. I realise it is automated but they still do it because a VAT receipt can still be issued if its £0.00.

I agree with the people saying the zero excess fare was correct and should have been issued.

In hindsight would it have been possible to get a written note from the ticket clerk at Paddington? Would they give out such a thing?

 

[james-martin]

Very interesting discussion...

What should I expect from a ticket office if I wish to Upgrade a SHF-1072 London Terminals SOR to First class southbound (with railcard discount)? I was advised at the ticket office that I'd be best buying on board. I'd prefer to get it all sorted before leaving the station however.

I guess the root question is whether a return ticket can be upgraded only one way (ie outbound). My initial impression of http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx was that a one way upgrade was possible but from this Thread I'm not so sure now!

Thoughts greatly appreciated!

James.

 

[Haywain]

Very interesting discussion...

What should I expect from a ticket office if I wish to Upgrade a SHF-1072 London Terminals SOR to First class southbound (with railcard discount)? I was advised at the ticket office that I'd be best buying on board. I'd prefer to get it all sorted before leaving the station however.

I guess the root question is whether a return ticket can be upgraded only one way (ie outbound). My initial impression of http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx was that a one way upgrade was possible but from this Thread I'm not so sure now!

Thoughts greatly appreciated!

James.

A standard class return ticket, such as you hold, can be upgraded to first class in one direction only. It can be done before travelling or on the train, although in the latter case it would be wise to know how much is involved as people are often surprised when they are told by the guard!

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Very interesting discussion...

What should I expect from a ticket office if I wish to Upgrade a SHF-1072 London Terminals SOR to First class southbound (with railcard discount)? I was advised at the ticket office that I'd be best buying on board. I'd prefer to get it all sorted before leaving the station however.

I guess the root question is whether a return ticket can be upgraded only one way (ie outbound). My initial impression of http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx was that a one way upgrade was possible but from this Thread I'm not so sure now!

Thoughts greatly appreciated!

James.

The issue in this thread is about excessing Sor into a FSR for the return journey.

As the fsr is cheaper than the sor a zero fare should be issued but Vt policy is to refund return portion and purchase new fss.

 

[Starmill]

As the fsr is cheaper than the sor a zero fare should be issued but Vt policy is to refund return portion and purchase new fss.

How do they refund only part of a ticket?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Bare in mind the appropriate fare is for both ways, so traveling peak one way and off peak return you would have a peak STD single and an off peak 1st single.

 

[Haywain]

How do they refund only part of a ticket?

For an unused return portion, by refunding the difference between the return fare and the relevant single fare. After the admin fee has been applied there may not be anything to refund but in the case of an SOR there usually is.

 

[infobleep]

For an unused return portion, by refunding the difference between the return fare and the relevant single fare. After the admin fee has been applied there may not be anything to refund but in the case of an SOR there usually is.

I didn't think admin fees applied to the excessing of tickets.

 

[Starmill]

I didn't think admin fees applied to the excessing of tickets.

No, exactly. And how would the train manager be able to refund it anyway?

 

[Haywain]

I didn't think admin fees applied to the excessing of tickets.

It doesn't, but that wasn't the question.

No, exactly. And how would the train manager be able to refund it anyway?

He wouldn't, but you didn't specify the guard issuing a refund.

 

[AlterEgo]

What a mess the system is. For God's sake, it's a train ticket.

 

[Starmill]

He wouldn't, but you didn't specify the guard issuing a refund

It was in response to a post about the actions of a guard. The post was quoted correctly.

I'm not sure what else you could have thought I meant I'm afraid.

 

[Haywain]

It was in response to a post about the actions of a guard. The post was quoted correctly.

Here's the entire post that you were quoting from. No mention of a guard.

The issue in this thread is about excessing Sor into a FSR for the return journey.

As the fsr is cheaper than the sor a zero fare should be issued but Vt policy is to refund return portion and purchase new fss.

 

[Starmill]

Is it good to split hairs? The reference to upgrading onboard is one above that. This whole thread is fundamentally about onboard upgrades. I'm not sure what other conclusions anyone could come to from reading the thread.

 

[Haywain]

Is it good to split hairs? The reference to upgrading onboard is one above that. This whole thread is fundamentally about onboard upgrades. I'm not sure what other conclusions anyone could come to from reading the thread.

It isn't, so I don't know why you are doing so. Thread subjects drift, and the previous post had referred simply to zero fares and VT policy, having noted that the thread was about excessing "Sor into a FSR for the return journey". No mention there of guards.

I won't continue this any further.

 

[premier01]

Hi all... have just noticed the post has had some further replies following a request for some advice on another standard to 1st excess- this time EMT.

As the OP I thought I would post an update to my online customer complaint.

It took 7 weeks for VT to respond which they say breaches the SLA.

They were apologetic for breaching the SLA due to unprecedented volumes of enquiries following the major disruptions in December.

They didn't comment on the specific case unfortunately, so there is no 'case law' type response to share.

I guess VT would have played the 'upgrade to full fare only' policy but can't be sure.

I am confident a zero excess should have been issued and I would have pushed further had that been the response.

However I was offered 2 x travel vouchers for 1st class return anywhere on the VT network.

So Mrs. Premier01 and I enjoyed a return trip from Preston to London on a peak time 1st service there and off-peak return, so redeeming 1 week before travel that worked out to be £ 625 or so value so happy days!

The VT on-board experince and staff were great as usual, shame corporate VT insist on making their own rules up on the excess policy etc

Any further experiences or examples would be great to hear about on here, not had cause to try it out since as have been able to avail of 1st advance or FOR depending on work projects.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi all... have just noticed the post has had some further replies following a request for some advice on another standard to 1st excess- this time EMT.

As the OP I thought I would post an update to my online customer complaint.

It took 7 weeks for VT to respond which they say breaches the SLA.

They were apologetic for breaching the SLA due to unprecedented volumes of enquiries following the major disruptions in December.

They didn't comment on the specific case unfortunately, so there is no 'case law' type response to share.

I guess VT would have played the 'upgrade to full fare only' policy but can't be sure.

I am confident a zero excess should have been issued and I would have pushed further had that been the response.

However I was offered 2 x travel vouchers for 1st class return anywhere on the VT network.

So Mrs. Premier01 and I enjoyed a return trip from Preston to London on a peak time 1st service there and off-peak return, so redeeming 1 week before travel that worked out to be £ 625 or so value so happy days!

The VT on-board experince and staff were great as usual, shame corporate VT insist on making their own rules up on the excess policy etc

Any further experiences or examples would be great to hear about on here, not had cause to try it out since as have been able to avail of 1st advance or FOR depending on work projects.

I should get myself into VTWC excess problems more often!

 

[premier01]

Just done an excess from a Standard Advance to Off-Peak 1st at a VT ticket office without problem.

£ 10 charge but think that is correct?

Advisor seemed knowledgeable and friendly.

Asked what he would do if the standard advance was a Standard Anytime.

Says would excess to 1st Anytime

Was very clear that's what they had been trained to do.

Don't hold out much hope for next time genuinley need to do this.

Any recent experiences or further thoughts?

Seems very clear that an 'appropriate fare' could be off-peak.

Have done this a few times without issue where excess is say £ 15 but zero fare excess seems to be what causes issue with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Zero fare excesses have been a problem since BR days because there is a (false) assumption that staff doing them are on the fiddle.

 

[ainsworth74]

Seems very clear that an 'appropriate fare' could be off-peak.

Most assuredly. The following internal guidance is given regarding excessing from Standard to First:

General Principles

The Excess fare to charge is the difference between the price of the ticket held and the price of the cheapest ticket(s) available for immediate travel on the chosen service.

The cheapest available ticket(s) suitable for the journey being made may vary, depending on the specific train, time of day or day of week on which customers wish to travel. The cheapest ticket could be an Anytime, OffPeak or Super Off-Peak ticket. It will never be an Advance ticket.

The difference to be paid is the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel. If that's an Off-Peak ticket then the Off-Peak should be issued.

 

[premier01]

Most assuredly. The following internal guidance is given regarding excessing from Standard to First:



The difference to be paid is the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest ticket available for immediate travel. If that's an Off-Peak ticket then the Off-Peak should be issued.

Thanks for the reply! This is exactly the extract that I've seen before and was trying to locate!

You will note from the discussions that VT internal policy is to only offer an excess to an anytime fare if an anytime ticket is already held, backed up by what the VT advisor said today also.

What grounds do VT have to insist their policy is followed?

Can they choose to implement their own rules and get away with it?

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for the reply! This is exactly the extract that I've seen before and was trying to locate!

You will note from the discussions that VT internal policy is to only offer an excess to an anytime fare if an anytime ticket is already held, backed up by what the VT advisor said today also.

What grounds do VT have to insist their policy is followed?

Can they choose to implement their own rules and get away with it?

VT are not allowed to make up their own rules that less favourable to the passenger.

 

[Haywain]

In any event, if you are starting with a Standard Anytime ticket, then refund and rebook is always an option if it proves cheaper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any event, if you are starting with a Standard Anytime ticket, then refund and rebook is always an option if it proves cheaper.

This is true - a zero fare excess is unlikely to be the best option here as the First Class Off Peak is likely to be more than £10 cheaper. Only works for excessing in both directions, though, and doesn't work for the niche case of an employer buying an employee an Anytime Return but the employee wanting to travel First Class.