Anytime Standard to Off-Peak First (zero fare excess issues)

[janb]

Here's an example that might have confused matters, though - the passenger presents with *the return half of an Anytime Return* and wishes to excess to 1st - then it's be a 1st Anytime as there's no way to know the outbound wasn't used at peak time, indeed it is almost certain that it would have been as why otherwise would it even have been purchased?

It would actually be a zero excess as well in the Preston - London example. First Class in one direction travelling back off peak would be SOS 175.50 + FSS £140 = £315.50 minus the £351 already paid.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46557.aspx

 

[AlterEgo]

If that was the case then why is vt’s understanding different to yours ??

VTWC are not known for being particularly competent with fare rules.

 

[Starmill]

prosecution suggestion was just plain ridiculous and insulting.

I agree it's insulting, but it's railway industry policy. They could be prosecuted. If these 'business travelers' had behaved in the same way on a GTR service, there is a very real chance of prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

VTWC are not known for being particularly competent with fare rules.

Has any other TOC ever done something quite so stupid as actually implementing evening peak restrictions (north of MKC) that were a breach of their franchise agreement and had to be rescinded?

 

[Hadders]

Being honest I’m looking for a reason to justify doing a zero fair excess, and then being able to argue it with my manger, if I say YORKIE told me to do they may not take me seriously.

@yorkie must be known in most TOC pricing departments as being extremely knowledgable on ticketing matters...

 

[gray1404]

In light of Yorkie's posts I would agree Virgin have made a mistake here by charging you. Please contact Virgin Trains to make a complaint. They really should be refunding you the incorrect excess paid. I am happy to help in any way I can in this matter but talking with you or drafting and letter or reviewing any replies and advising on further action (as will others on the forum).

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Hi again,

I’ve been back through the internal ticketing policy and it’s states any passenger wishing to upgrade from a sos on an off peak train to first class is to be upgraded to a FOS.

On our internal social media the points were made as above and the reply from management is that ‘knowledge base sets out the minimum standards for tocs to adhere to, some of the wording is ambiguous and often interpreted differently. As a toc we are allowed to
Issue our own clarity and direction.

The tm followed the policy set by the company.

In defence of the company what stops me from taking my anytime single to Euston booking office and asking for a zero fare excess to a fss, then boarding the 15.43 with the sos as far as Milton then at Milton joining in first class up to Preston ??? Anybody asks I broke my journey at Milton for a meeting and traveled up on the 14.43 !

Paul

 

[premier01]

I agree it's insulting, but it's railway industry policy. They could be prosecuted. If these 'business travelers' had behaved in the same way on a GTR service, there is a very real chance of prosecution.

It's quite clear though that VT policy allows customers to upgrade on board the train without prosecution or even penalty- just perhaps incorrcet excess charge in some cases!

 

[premier01]

Hi again,

I’ve been back through the internal ticketing policy and it’s states any passenger wishing to upgrade from a sos on an off peak train to first class is to be upgraded to a FOS.

On our internal social media the points were made as above and the reply from management is that ‘knowledge base sets out the minimum standards for tocs to adhere to, some of the wording is ambiguous and often interpreted differently. As a toc we are allowed to
Issue our own clarity and direction.

The tm followed the policy set by the company.

In defence of the company what stops me from taking my anytime single to Euston booking office and asking for a zero fare excess to a fss, then boarding the 15.43 with the sos as far as Milton then at Milton joining in first class up to Preston ??? Anybody asks I broke my journey at Milton for a meeting and traveled up on the 14.43 !

Paul

It's obvious you are siding with your employer, though appreciate balance of opinions on this forum keeps it interesting!

I think it is ridiculous for any TOC to make rules up as they go along to suit them, just as it is for a customer to do the same.

A TOC could apply for exceptions, such as XC charging £ 10 admin fee to excess Advance tickets to an Anytime ticket which is clear on the Ts & Cs plus guidleines published online.

Whether or not I should have been offered excess to FSS or FOS is one thing on board, but before boarding it is clear that I should have been offered the FSS upgrade, £0.00 or not.

Finally, in response to your point about what's to stop someone breaking journey at MKC-

- not sure you could break journey on a FSS?

- what service from MKC do you propose would be boarded later to use 1st? Presumably it would have to be an off-peak service where an FSS would be valid which would be several hours later. There doesn't appear to be an MKC-PRE FSS so wouldn't be valid to use 1st and an excess to FOS would be required.

- Even if this happened, hasn't the customer duly paid for a very expensive SOS so not exactly gaining by travelling peak time in Standard on the EUS to MKC sector?

- Even if this is a loophole, which I can't think it is, wouldn't it just be like someone reusing the outbound portion of a say York to Doncaster SOR having used both portions of the ticket but it hasn't been stamped? Illegal but could be done, that doesn't justify the TOC refusing to sell a SOR on the grounds that the customer may attempt to re-use the outward portion An extreme example but lots more examples like this!


Sure folk with a lot more knowledge can add more to these points but that's my understanding.

What I can't understand is why some folk, including the TM, appear to think this would be financially gaining or cheating the system.

If anything I am down £ 35.50 as have parted with £ 175.50 when I could have just bought an FSS for £ 140! Unfortunately, plans were open based on work commitments so I had to purchase SOS.

So my 'choice' not to avail of a peak time service but no gain here other than losing 15 mins time at Paddington and paying over £ 100 more than could have done but clearly no direct loss to VT other than cost of 2 mins spent issuing excess and the paper ticket cost!

Fortunately usually travel on pre-bought 1st Advance so not a regular occurrence for me but know this has certainty been an interesting experience so far, though not surprising given the confusion that reigns being the topic of most of the conversations on this forum!

 

[premier01]

In light of Yorkie's posts I would agree Virgin have made a mistake here by charging you. Please contact Virgin Trains to make a complaint. They really should be refunding you the incorrect excess paid. I am happy to help in any way I can in this matter but talking with you or drafting and letter or reviewing any replies and advising on further action (as will others on the forum).

Thank you for the offer of further advice, most helpful @gray1404

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Hi premier01

Im not blindly siding with my employer I’m relaying policy. All the posts so far seem to say that you Should have been alowed to upgrade to the fss at the station and using common sense be allowed to do the same on board.

I have it in black and white that if you go to a vt ticket office and ask for a fss they will ask you to refund the sos first.

The examples of why you should be able do a zero fare to first because you can change a sor into a sss although is interesting wont hold any weight in getting your money back.

Put simply vt believe you are purchasing an additional first class experience onto the ticket. In my opinion this will be the argument you will face, quoting any of the advice above will not help, the company will refer to the guidelines and say our policy is to refund the single before travel and purchase the fss.

If you find a way to challenge the above then you have recourse for a refund. Get the policy in an email and take it to passenger focus and challenge it.

Paul

 

[premier01]

Hi premier01

Im not blindly siding with my employer I’m relaying policy. All the posts so far seem to say that you Should have been alowed to upgrade to the fss at the station and using common sense be allowed to do the same on board.

I have it in black and white that if you go to a vt ticket office and ask for a fss they will ask you to refund the sos first.

The examples of why you should be able do a zero fare to first because you can change a sor into a sss although is interesting wont hold any weight in getting your money back.

Put simply vt believe you are purchasing an additional first class experience onto the ticket. In my opinion this will be the argument you will face, quoting any of the advice above will not help, the company will refer to the guidelines and say our policy is to refund the single before travel and purchase the fss.

If you find a way to challenge the above then you have recourse for a refund. Get the policy in an email and take it to passenger focus and challenge it.

Paul

OK, it doesn't matter to me whether you were siding with them or not, as your insight into the policy is interesting.

I am surprised that many folk have thought to challenge this for them to make such a thing of it, but guess out lf the millions of travellers using VT it must come up quite a lot.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

OK, it doesn't matter to me whether you were siding with them or not, as your insight into the policy is interesting.

I am surprised that many folk have thought to challenge this for them to make such a thing of it, but guess out lf the millions of travellers using VT it must come up quite a lot.

I only point that out because personally it seems unfair to pay more for a fare than is required ! It’s the cornerstone of discression, is this person paying less than they should be ??

It probably hasn’t came up before as the fss to Preston is a new fare so before the only fare to excess to was the FOS.

Interestingly the fare was brought in my opinion to offer a reasonable excess to passengers with svr who couldn’t get a seat. The 19.30 was until a two years ago full in both std and 1st but now rarely gets more than 30 in 1st class.

As much as these forums are full of knowledgable people who can run rings round me even on a good day they are weighted to solve people’s problems by their very nature, no train company will change policy and lose money because it’s customer friendly.

From my limited experience of the railway we have stopped running a service and stated running a business.


Paul

 

[Bletchleyite]

Put simply vt believe you are purchasing an additional first class experience onto the ticket. In my opinion this will be the argument you will face, quoting any of the advice above will not help, the company will refer to the guidelines and say our policy is to refund the single before travel and purchase the fss

Which of course results in VT getting less money than the excess!

 

[CyrusWuff]

Which of course results in VT getting less money than the excess!

Or (slightly) more money than the excess if the original ticket wasn't bought from VT, as they'll get the commission for selling the new ticket as well as what's due to them through ORCATS/LENNON. It also potentially leaves the passenger out of pocket to the tune of the cost of the SOS (less Admin Fee) for up to four weeks.

Regardless, Condition 15.3 of the NRCoT is clear that an upgrade to First Class purchased before boarding the train is the difference between the price paid and the appropriate First Class fare for the journey, and by insisting on refunding the SOS in such a situation where an FSS is the appropriate fare, VT are in breach of the NRCoT and quite possibly the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn't however purchased before boarding (though that was because of GWR refusing to issue a zero fare excess).

 

[yorkie]

...no train company will change policy and lose money because it’s customer friendly....

See post above by CyrusWuff; Virgin have history of breaching the NRCoC & TSA (and it was members of this forum who uncovered their illegal MKC restrictions) and only recently Virgin EC were caught incorrectly refusing to accept inter-available fares between Sunderland & Newcastle.

Virgin have also been caught denying customers their rights to use two or more tickets for one journey, both on the West Coast and East Coast.

Furthermore, barrier staff at London Euston in particular have been caught acting unlawfully on numerous occasions (I am aware of loads of incidents, and for every incident I am aware of there must be many more!)

The image portrayed by Virgin can be quite the opposite of the reality.

They really ought to heed the advice given by experts here, as they clearly lack experts internally and they lack sufficient safeguards to ensure that their customers are not mistreated.

It wasn't however purchased before boarding (though that was because of GWR refusing to issue a zero fare excess).

CyrusWuff was responding to post #41 which contains an allegation that VT are breaching the NRCoT by insisting on issuing a refund & new ticket instead of an excess fare.

 

[gray1404]

So my question to the OP now, what are you going to do about this? Are you going to challenge this to Virgin Trains? As a starting point you could apply for a refund maybe on your Standard Anytime ticket?

 

[Haywain]

So my question to the OP now, what are you going to do about this? Are you going to challenge this to Virgin Trains? As a starting point you could apply for a refund maybe on your Standard Anytime ticket?

But that ticket was used, so there is no entitlement to a refund.

 

[185]

The ticket office could have issued you the excess for £0.10 which would have solved the problem, although perhaps they've been instructed not to do this

On my retail course for conductors, balancing it down to 10p - wrong as it may be, we were actually told this was the (correct) company procedure to avoid generating a ZF. Also, the ZF is there solely to be issued in relation to TIR / Evasion.

Whilst no refund is due under delay repay rules, there is certainly quite a reasonable customer service complaint.

 

[Jonfun]

I have to admit, I'd never heard of a Standard Anytime being excessable to a First Off-Peak. I assumed upgrading to the appropriate ticket (ie Anytime First for a Standard Anytime or Off Peak First for Standard Off-peak etc) was standard across the industry, it definitely isn't just a VT thing - What happens on the ground may differ of course but that would be discretionary.

 

[yorkie]

I have to admit, I'd never heard of a Standard Anytime being excessable to a First Off-Peak. I assumed upgrading to the appropriate ticket (ie Anytime First for a Standard Anytime or Off Peak First for Standard Off-peak etc) was standard across the industry, it definitely isn't just a VT thing - What happens on the ground may differ of course but that would be discretionary.

Do you know what "appropriate fare" means in this context? From your post above, it appears not.

 

[premier01]

I have to admit, I'd never heard of a Standard Anytime being excessable to a First Off-Peak. I assumed upgrading to the appropriate ticket (ie Anytime First for a Standard Anytime or Off Peak First for Standard Off-peak etc) was standard across the industry, it definitely isn't just a VT thing - What happens on the ground may differ of course but that would be discretionary.

It seems to be about the definition of 'appropriate'.

Can anyone post the relevant extract from the internal retail guidance notes that help define 'appropriate'?

There must surely be something in this differentiating appropriate v full for different situations?

I have been offered excesses from Anytime to Off-Peak on several occasions in the case of route changes and upgrades, but these have all been where the excess is greater than £ 0.00, varying from nominal to significant amounts.

So it seems to be this zero excess situation that encourages the thinking that the customer is getting something free or playing the system, whereas if the excess was £ 14, TOCs seem more than happy to oblige and this 'like for like' rule mysteriouslybis forgotten about.

 

[premier01]

So my question to the OP now, what are you going to do about this? Are you going to challenge this to Virgin Trains? As a starting point you could apply for a refund maybe on your Standard Anytime ticket?

As mentioned the original SOS ticket has been used- excessed (incorrectly) and stamped by the TM.

I have submitted an online complaint openly outlining the steps I took and experience I had and this has been automatically acknowledged, so we'll see what happens!

 

[yorkie]

See this post regarding change of route excess, which is also to the appropriate fare, which includes an example.

 

[CyrusWuff]

From KnowledgeBase:

Reference to 'appropriate fare' means the cheapest (my emphasis) Single or Return ticket available for immediate travel on the chosen service.

In the case of an excess from Standard to First Class with a normal walk up ticket, there's no distinction between upgrading before boarding or once on board, regardless of whether there was an "opportunity to buy".

 

[janb]

Finally in work so able to look at the page of the iKB CyrusWuff just quoted as my memory was it was clear and indeed it is. In bold at the top of the page is the definition of "appropriate fare". Virgin are taking the proverbial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On my retail course for conductors, balancing it down to 10p - wrong as it may be, we were actually told this was the (correct) company procedure to avoid generating a ZF. Also, the ZF is there solely to be issued in relation to TIR / Evasion.

It really isn't - that's confiscation with the issue of a replacement for zero fare, not a zero fare excess.

It's for changing a ticket into another ticket where the the target ticket is cheaper than the original one, the most common use for which being changing a ticket routed +LONDON into, say, one routed Kensington Olympia. This didn't used to be important, because before TOCs were into PFing and prosecuting all over the place it'd just be "it's the same fare/it's cheaper, don't worry about it". Now even the most lenient of TOCs are absolute on fares (e.g. LM PFing people for overtravelling where the fare is the same, as evidenced on one of those daytime TV shows made with LM's full involvement, the one with Dom whatshisname), it is essential that it is possible to change your ticket to the correct fare for what you intend to do.

I don't understand why there is such an institutional issue with this. If giving out excesses for free is that much of an issue, why don't ATOC/RDG just set a minimum excess fare of £1.00 or something?

 

[yorkie]

... If giving out excesses for free is that much of an issue...

it's only an issue for some TOCs, and is only an issue because they choose for it to be so.

 

[AlterEgo]

On our internal social media the points were made as above and the reply from management is that ‘knowledge base sets out the minimum standards for tocs to adhere to, some of the wording is ambiguous and often interpreted differently. As a toc we are allowed to
Issue our own clarity and direction.

I see not much has changed with VTWC since I was there about five years ago...