Anyone noticed anecdotally another uptick in passenger numbers

[yorksrob]

Another TOC seems to have a policy of declining all claims in the hope that passengers just give up rather than appeal.

Sounds remarkably like N******n R**l to me.

 

[Iskra]

Sounds remarkably like N******n R**l to me.

They’re just genuinely incompetent, it’s an operator that specialises in crossing hilly areas at speed that seems to have an unofficial policy of declining everything in the hope it deters claims and saves money.

 

[yorksrob]

They’re just genuinely incompetent, it’s an operator that specialises in crossing hilly areas at speed that seems to have an unofficial policy of declining everything in the hope it deters claims and saves money.

I wonder who that could be.

Perhaps I've been unlucky in that case !

 

[156421]

Sounds remarkably like N******n R**l to me.

To be fair, Northern does seem to pay out quite quickly unless it's something "off normal" like a rover/ranger/split ticketing. Still much slower than they take the money out of your account when you buy a ticket, of course.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, Northern does seem to pay out quite quickly unless it's something "off normal" like a rover/ranger/split ticketing. Still much slower than they take the money out of your account when you buy a ticket, of course.

I can only speak for myself, but I've put in two claims with them over the last year, and they've both been turned down on spurious grounds, so perhaps I'm cynical.

 

[Snow1964]

I have just done an analysis of the new ORR data published today (Jan-March), to see which is busiest, and excluding open access is Chiltern at 30 passenger km per vehicle km

Its in ORR data thread

ORR release quarterly passenger data

I'm particularly surprised that Avanti grew so much as they are a Long Distance operator From page 8: Avanti West Coast and Transpennine Express ran reduced timetables in the previous year, which caused a large increase in passenger kilometres in the latest quarter, compared with the previous...

www.railforums.co.uk

Data also shows one operator is about 48% above year earlier

 

[Bald Rick]

A number of TOC’s seem to be wising up to this and inserting generous amounts of recovery time into their schedules to avoid paying out.

Can you provide specific examples please.

 

[Iskra]

Can you provide specific examples please.

Highland Chieftain, Night Riviera, most Caledonian Sleeper services; this random XC service that has gone from 28L to probably an on time arrival:

Realtime Trains | 1S45 0927 Plymouth to Aberdeen | 13/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S45 0927 departure from Plymouth to Aberdeen on 13/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This GC service:

Realtime Trains | 1D81 1627 London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange | 13/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1D81 1627 departure from London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange on 13/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This LNER London-Aberdeen:

Realtime Trains | 1W20 1400 London Kings Cross to Aberdeen | 13/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1W20 1400 departure from London Kings Cross to Aberdeen on 13/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That’s just a very quick sweep, but I think I could spend all day finding examples if I was that way inclined (I’m not ).

 

[Bald Rick]

Highland Chieftain, Night Riviera, most Caledonian Sleeper services; this random XC service that has gone from 28L to probably an on time arrival:

Realtime Trains | 1S45 0927 Plymouth to Aberdeen | 13/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S45 0927 departure from Plymouth to Aberdeen on 13/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This GC service:

Realtime Trains | 1D81 1627 London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange | 13/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1D81 1627 departure from London Kings Cross to Bradford Interchange on 13/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This LNER London-Aberdeen:

Realtime Trains | 1W20 1400 London Kings Cross to Aberdeen | 13/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1W20 1400 departure from London Kings Cross to Aberdeen on 13/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That’s just a very quick sweep, but I think I could spend all day finding examples if I was that way inclined (I’m not ).

and how has this changed?

Theres not *that* much performance allowance in any of them, and none at all in the GC service (except the mandatory minute for all trains through the Welwyn 2 track section).

 

[Iskra]

and how has this changed?

Theres not *that* much perfromance allowance in any of them, and none at all in the GC service (except the mandatory minute for all trains through the Welwyn 2 track section).

Do the station dwell times not seem a tad excessive to you?

 

[Bald Rick]

Do the station dwell times not seem a tad excessive to you?

That’s about matching paths on busy parts of the network, not performance.

 

[Watershed]

Can you provide specific examples please.

TfW are one of the worst offenders, e.g. 4 minutes on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly here. Their non-stop trains are sometimes shown as being overtaken by stoppers!

MTR aren't much better on the Elizabeth line; they add 2 minutes onto the arrival time at stations like Shenfield where they know they don't need to compete, but not for journeys where the advertised journey time has to be competitive to maximise revenue, such as arriving into Heathrow. Funny, that...

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m not suggesting it doesnt happen, I was querying the assertion (not by you!) that operators were ‘wising up’ and ‘inserting generous amounts of revovery time to avoid paying out’, ie doing more of it.

As it happens I have the data on this on my screen right now. The amount of passenger differentials in the whole timetable has reduced, by more than 60%, over the past few years, ie TOCs have been doing quite the opposite and removing ‘padding’ in the timetable. Notably this is usually DfT funded TOCs; which helps to explain why Open Access, Elizabeth Line and TfW are some of the examples quoted above.

As an aside, the removal of this quantity of differentials has had a measurable affect on performance figures. Im not providing a view whether it is right or wrong, but it is one of the reasons that performance is worse than it was a few years ago.

 

[The exile]

Do the station dwell times not seem a tad excessive to you?

In the days when various continental railways were praised for their timekeeping (why can’t we be like that?) 5 - 10 minute stops for long-distance services at major nodes were the norm. “Padding” can also be viewed as timetabling for resilience!

 

[Iskra]

That’s about matching paths on busy parts of the network, not performance.

Officially perhaps, but it has the effect of extending journey times and getting delayed trains back on time conveniently towards the end of their journeys, so passengers are being slowed down; ‘pre-delayed,’ if you like, while TOC’s save money on delay repay payments.

 

[Iskra]

I’m not suggesting it doesnt happen, I was querying the assertion (not by you!) that operators were ‘wising up’ and ‘inserting generous amounts of revovery time to avoid paying out’, ie doing more of it.

As it happens I have the data on this on my screen right now. The amount of passenger differentials in the whole timetable has reduced, by more than 60%, over the past few years, ie TOCs have been doing quite the opposite and removing ‘padding’ in the timetable. Notably this is usually DfT funded TOCs; which helps to explain why Open Access, Elizabeth Line and TfW are some of the examples quoted above.

As an aside, the removal of this quantity of differentials has had a measurable affect on performance figures. Im not providing a view whether it is right or wrong, but it is one of the reasons that performance is worse than it was a few years ago.

Can you break it down by TOC? My gut feeling would be that TOC’s doing more frequent, shorter journeys have tightened up, whereas those doing infrequent long journeys have gone in the opposite direction, but are masked by the more frequent shorter journey stats.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed. I have claimed Delay Repay for every Avanti journey I have made in the last 3 weeks...

In my football away trips last season it had occured to me that as I was getting 110% delay repay on nearly every E & WCML journey It might actually be worth transferring the journeys i was making by long distance coach on to rail. this would have only applied to the return journey as I wouldnt want to miss kick off!

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Can you break it down by TOC? My gut feeling would be that TOC’s doing more frequent, shorter journeys have tightened up, whereas those doing infrequent long journeys have gone in the opposite direction, but are masked by the more frequent shorter journey stats.

I think it's been tightened up due to the performance of new trains, but it's still there, just locally to me it appears to take longer to get from Diss to Norwich than Norwich to Diss.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can you break it down by TOC? My gut feeling would be that TOC’s doing more frequent, shorter journeys have tightened up, whereas those doing infrequent long journeys have gone in the opposite direction, but are masked by the more frequent shorter journey stats.

Yes.

Number of DfT funded TOCs that have increased passenger differentials: 0

 

[The exile]

I think it's been tightened up due to the performance of new trains, but it's still there, just locally to me it appears to take longer to get from Diss to Norwich than Norwich to Diss.

Almost inevitable when contrasting a departure from a major terminus and and arrival.

 

[stuu]

Highland Chieftain, Night Riviera, most Caledonian Sleeper services; this random XC service that has gone from 28L to probably an on time arrival:

The XC services have always had some long dwells, they don't seem any different to what they were when I had the pleasure of using them in the past. Part of it is resilience but also they do crew changes and restock the buffet trolley etc, as well as pathing reasons. It's nothing new

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Yes.

Number of DfT funded TOCs that have increased passenger differentials: 0

Yes I think performance allowances have been backed into timetables for approximately 15 to 20 years now as I seem to remember in the early 2000s there was a bit of controversy over it.

 

[The exile]

“Charter minutes”….

 

[Mike395]

Anecdotally, I feel like leisure travel has taken another significant uptick recently. As just one example this 8 car EMR Connect service is full and standing (with 3&2 seating!) south of Luton, very rare even on peak summer weekends last year in my experience…

 

[Djgr]

Every Wirral line train into Liverpool on a Saturday is rammed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anecdotally, I feel like leisure travel has taken another significant uptick recently. As just one example this 8 car EMR Connect service is full and standing (with 3&2 seating!) south of Luton, very rare even on peak summer weekends last year in my experience…

Trooping the Colour today - a big draw of crowds.

 

[Mike395]

Trooping the Colour today - a big draw of crowds.

Ah I’d forgotten about that! Helps explain it.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Ah I’d forgotten about that! Helps explain it.

Just shows the necessity to have a high capacity railway in the UK, no other form of transport can move 5 or 6 hundred people into London at a time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just shows the necessity to have a high capacity railway in the UK, no other form of transport can move 5 or 6 hundred people into London at a time.

5-6 hundred thousand, and I’d agree with you.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

5-6 hundred thousand, and id abree with you.

Yes agreed, I was thinking per a train but agreed on a daily basis