Another Northern Fail

[Nym]

Remember though that ToCs are NOT ALLOWED to order rolling stock without DfT approval!
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All the more reason for the North to follow Scotland and tear itself away from the schackels of Westminster.

And do what exactly? Charge them for all the coal, elecricity, food, logistics services, low level office worker services, water, processed gas, and various other natural re <snip> hang on a minute...

If the North, Wales, and West country declare independance and cut off, basically the NSE area, who claim (by thatcherism) that they'd be the richest country in the world, yet use the whole of the UK's resources to do so, and charge them to use our electriciy, our chemicals and our food resources. We'd be rich

 

[PR1Berske]

All the more reason for the North to follow Scotland and tear itself away from the schackels of Westminster.

An independent Northern Republic would have all the infrastructure it needs to survive. Sign me up.

 

[Nym]

An independent Northern Republic would have all the infrastructure it needs to survive. Sign me up.

'Greater London' would not

 

[WestCoast]

I just want Northern Rail to be stripped of their franchise, is that too much ask

...and replaced with who?? First? Arriva? I'm sure they will be much better...:roll:

I use them every day and yes many of the trains are not up to the standards of other TOCs, but that's the unequal rolling stock programme in this country for you!

 

[Harlesden]

The OP does not appear to be aware of the fact that packed rush hour trains are a fact of life in every part of the country - and in many cities of the world.
How is this a "fail"?
Does he/she really expect no fare rise at all? That is living in dreamland. Not only are TOC employees entitled to expect an annual rise in pay but the cost of subsidiary services provided to the TOC by third parties also rises fairly regularly.
If there were 1-2 extra trains provided during the rush hour, what would they do after the rush hour when they were not needed? What would the train crews do after their special rush hour duties to make up their hours to a full shift?
As for longer trains, buying new stock is not a TOC decision. It has to be authorized by government and so no TOC can be held in any way responsible for an alleged. shortage of rolling stock

 

[WestCoast]

Does he/she really expect no fare rise at all? That is living in dreamland. Not only are TOC employees entitled to expect an annual rise in pay but the cost of subsidiary services provided to the TOC by third parties also rises fairly regularly.

I'd certainly be happy if I paid West Yorkshire PTE fares! They are considerably lower in many cases than fares on other parts of the Northern network. It's not like there are major income differences either...

 

[trentside]

As I think most of the comments in this thread say, what a ridiculous article.

I use Northern fairly often myself and I'm grateful that the company won the franchise from the disastrous Northern Spirit / Arriva Trains Northern. Those people calling for them to be stripped of their franchise should remember what came before (in Yorkshire and the North East, anyway!).

 

[PR1Berske]

As I think most of the comments in this thread say, what a ridiculous article.

I use Northern fairly often myself and I'm grateful that the company won the franchise from the disastrous Northern Spirit / Arriva Trains Northern. Those people calling for them to be stripped of their franchise should remember what came before (in Yorkshire and the North East, anyway!).

I remember the days before Northern Rail, First North Western especially, and on every possible comparable factor, I would choose someone else over Northern.

There is an "attitude" or...."atmosphere" with Northern Rail which has always bothered me.

 

[WestCoast]

There is an "attitude" or...."atmosphere" with Northern Rail which has always bothered me.

What would that be?

This is my experience for a North West perspective. Aside from rolling stock issues, I've found most of their onboard and station staff amiable, maintaining a visible presence. They have solved the issue of lack of Ticket-On-Departure at major stations recently and they tend to keep the larger stations in a more pleasant state than Virgin do (there are exceptions of course). They are fairly lenient on ticketing (this can be a good or a bad thing) - people running late will be sold a ticket onboard and there are no squabbles about advance tickets e.t.c.

Punctuality depends on the line, as with many TOCs.

First North Western was split between Arriva Trains Wales, First TPE and Northern. First TPE's peak services (and at some off-peak times as well) between Preston and Manchester are often RAMMED to the gills, making the 'atmosphere' pretty rubbish. Yes, they have modern trains, but that doesn't make them the better TOC (quite the opposite I tend to think).

 

[gobuddygo]

Not only are TOC employees entitled to expect an annual rise in pay

Why exactly? I work for a company that made $5.5 BILLION profit last year my pay rise 2%. first one for 5 years.

I use Northern every day the new policy this year seems to be that if the train is running late (at least twice a week) the guard hides away in the rear cab and wont even announce station arrivals, let alone apologise or explain the late running, this happened once again this morning.

 

[Schnellzug]

W
First North Western was split between Arriva Trains Wales, First TPE and Northern. First TPE's peak services (and at some off-peak times as well) between Preston and Manchester are often RAMMED to the gills, making the 'atmosphere' pretty rubbish. Yes, they have modern trains, but that doesn't make them the better TOC (quite the opposite I tend to think).

but is that their fault, or the DfT's?

 

[trentside]

There is an "attitude" or...."atmosphere" with Northern Rail which has always bothered me.

What sort of "attitude or atmosphere" do you mean?

If it's about the staff, I have never had a problem with Northern's staff. I find them very approachable and helpful, they actually seem to want to work for the passenger and be flexible, instead of viewing each and every passenger as a potential fare evader. That's my opinion anyway, obviously there will no doubt be exceptions.

 

[WestCoast]

but is that their fault, or the DfT's?

The latter of course. I was just responding to the notion of the "atmosphere" being poor on Northern in comparison to other TOCs operating in the area! My defintion of "atmosphere" on regional routes tends to be whether I can sit down or have to stand crammed in the corner...

 

[driver9000]

I remember the days before Northern Rail, First North Western especially, and on every possible comparable factor, I would choose someone else over Northern.

There is an "attitude" or...."atmosphere" with Northern Rail which has always bothered me.

I think it should be remembered that with the exception of the 150s and a handful of MerseyRail sponsored 142s FNW undertook no vehicle refurbishments (I know 142s gained First seat covers) The 153 and 156s were still carrying Regional Railways interiors when Northern inherited them. The 158s still had BR interiors too and in many cases the fleet was still wearing North Western Trains livery. I for one was glad to see the back of First and Arriva. Regardless of who won the franchise it was still a no investment franchise so I doubt things would be different if First had retained it - we'd still be running about in the same fleet.

What is the attitude or atmosphere you're bothered by?

 

[tbtc]

the article and the OP of the thread are just Northern bashing for Northern bashings sake. Those lines have actually had more new services and trains than many other lines. I do have sympathy but their are worse off lines in West Yorkshire

Good point. Bradford has benefitted twice from the recent reshuffle of stock - firstly with the cascaded 322s replacing some DMU duties on the "Shipley" services (meaning longer trains for Bradford), secondly with the DMUs "spare" (as a result of the 322s) being used on the Calderdale services through Bradford.

I agree that the Calderdale lines seem to be one of the busiest Northern routes, and aren't getting the money thrown at them in electrification that some others are, but at least they've had some improvements, compared to plenty of other lines in Yorkshire/Lancashire which saw no benefit in recent times.

Not sure I understand this as bashing, rather drawing our attention to an article and explaining how the OP feels about government spending?

I'd suggest that "Another Northern Fail" (and quoting comments about fallen trees etc) sounds like bashing the TOC, rather than a sensible discussion regarding the sustainability of investment in local railways...

If Northern hadn't been given the franchise in 2004 this thread would be about the firm who did

This is a philisophical point - but the Bradford paper seem to be blaming Northern for a fallen tree. Hmm, if a tree falls in a forest and there's nobody to hear it, is it the fault of Serco? (if I were from Bradford I'd be more worried about how Serco have treated local schools...)

I'd certainly be happy if I paid West Yorkshire PTE fares! They are considerably lower in many cases than fares on other parts of the Northern network. It's not like there are major income differences either...

I would too - complaints about "an extra 20p per journey"? I bet there are plenty people using Northern services (outside West Yorkshire) who would be delighted with such tiny rises!

 

[142094]

We all know that the franchise was let on a 0% growth basis (although some use this to argue that Northern or any of the other bids should not have signed up to this). Also, demand is very hard to judge which is why we are in this situation. IMO the West Yorkshire area has done quite well with the amount of extra capacity they've been given recently, especially when compared to some of the services up here - we were given an extra 142 to put on Hexham - Newcastle service in the morning but this has been taken off due to issues with drivers walking down the track at Hexham.

However, what is frustrating is that Northern is getting bits and bobs from cascades and what is really needed is wholescale investment in new rolling stock. One large order, which could include new stock for other TOCs at the same time, to either replace or strengthen some of the older units we have now, would be beneficial - if the money can be found.

 

[87015]

However, what is frustrating is that Northern is getting bits and bobs from cascades and what is really needed is wholescale investment in new rolling stock. One large order, which could include new stock for other TOCs at the same time, to either replace or strengthen some of the older units we have now, would be beneficial - if the money can be found.

Northern gets a £339m subsidy so its hardly cut off by the DfT and given nothing. It made tidy pre-tax profits of £40m last year, £30m the year before...

 

[142094]

Northern made pre-tax profits of £40m last year, £30m the year before... With that sort of money walking out the system and a subsidy of £339m already from the government how would the DfT get a return on throwing more money at Northern?

£40m wouldn't get you far in terms of new stock. Also, it has to go through the DfT first so no suprise there that nothing is happening.

Don't get me wrong, IMO the current privatised system hasn't worked, but I feel that Northern do a good job with what they've got. It could be a lot worse - and I can remember the days of Arriva Trains Northern, and BR before that.

 

[Pumbaa]

Northern gets a £339m subsidy so its hardly cut off by the DfT and given nothing. It made tidy pre-tax profits of £40m last year, £30m the year before...

We can go one better surely? Orders from up high telling the clogs in York to pull their weight and chip into the Abellio coffers are now the order of the day, passengers come somewhere near the bottom of the pile, just above staff.

Passenger revenue and subsidy both fell, staff costs increased, yet they managed a 30% increase in profit.

That penny scrimping comes from somewhere...!

Which reminds me, have they closed the Manchester control desk yet? That was due to move to York by January but I haven't heard anything back from it.

 

[142094]

Which reminds me, have they closed the Manchester control desk yet? That was due to move to York by January but I haven't heard anything back from it.

Not sure - at work we used to get two different payments from Northern's payrolls - one from York and one from Manchester, although not sure if anything has changed yet.

 

[Chapeltom]

A non-story as per usual. The Metro area is blessed with electrification, we on the West side see very few electric Northern units.

Here's a few points from me, some stating the obvious.
Northern have little control over the stock they get
Fares in the Metro area are low compared to the rest of the country
Northern are generally a very reliable TOC even with their ageing fleet
If we had someone else in charge, little would change.

Although from what I've noticed travelling fairly regularly is that guards seem to be frustrated themselves when people complain and say "We can't do anything, its not our fault, its management's fault". I don't think the majority of passengers have much idea how the railways work in this country and when someone refers to it as British Rail or says "Bring back British Rail" then well... make of that what you will...

 

[tbtc]

The Metro area is blessed with electrification, we on the West side see very few electric Northern units

Are there more Northern EMUs on the east or west side?

And where is the majority of new electrification taking place in the rest of the decade?

 

[Bellwater]

And do what exactly? Charge them for all the coal, elecricity, food, logistics services, low level office worker services, water, processed gas, and various other natural re <snip> hang on a minute...

If the North, Wales, and West country declare independance and cut off, basically the NSE area, who claim (by thatcherism) that they'd be the richest country in the world, yet use the whole of the UK's resources to do so, and charge them to use our electriciy, our chemicals and our food resources. We'd be rich

Cracking idea!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

A non-story as per usual. The Metro area is blessed with electrification, we on the West side see very few electric Northern units.

Here's a few points from me, some stating the obvious.
Northern have little control over the stock they get
Fares in the Metro area are low compared to the rest of the country
Northern are generally a very reliable TOC even with their ageing fleet
If we had someone else in charge, little would change.

Although from what I've noticed travelling fairly regularly is that guards seem to be frustrated themselves when people complain and say "We can't do anything, its not our fault, its management's fault". I don't think the majority of passengers have much idea how the railways work in this country and when someone refers to it as British Rail or says "Bring back British Rail" then well... make of that what you will...

Of course we get frustrated, the majority of us love our job and do our best for the passengers, we want to do the best that we can (even if we do have bad/off days like everyone else), yes we blame the managers, who then blame their managers, who then blame the directors, who blame the managing director who then blames everyone else..normal company

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are there more Northern EMUs on the east or west side?......And where is the majority of new electrification taking place in the rest of the decade?

Instead of recreating the Wars of the Roses ad nauseum, why do we in "Northernland" not show a united front now until the end of the franchise and see how much common ground we have. The policy of "divide and rule" achieves absolutely nothing and is "music to the ears" of those who foster this self-defeating chain of thought.

 

[northwichcat]

'The Problem is Northern gets hand me downs from other companies'

Posted from a Northern 156 with 'East Midlands Trains' on the side.

Northern got older 150s to replace those 156s!

Northern did create a lot of publicity about extra seats in December and obviously many services didn't get strengthened and some of those that did get short formed whenever units are available.
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I remember the days before Northern Rail, First North Western especially, and on every possible comparable factor, I would choose someone else over Northern.

There is an "attitude" or...."atmosphere" with Northern Rail which has always bothered me.

FNW may have introduced 175s to replace slam door stock and refurbished the 150s properly but they did have a high level of cancellations and delays. The only consolation was that ATN were even worse.

 

[Anvil1984]

Of course we get frustrated, the majority of us love our job and do our best for the passengers, we want to do the best that we can (even if we do have bad/off days like everyone else), yes we blame the managers, who then blame their managers, who then blame the directors, who blame the managing director who then blames everyone else..normal company

I dont blame management, its usually maintainence (if my train is knackered like this morning straight off depot), diagramming department (if train is diagrammed for something ridiculously small), DFT (for being DfT). management (for fare increases even though its not probably their fault, but passengers seem to blame me).... Oh poopy I blame them for something>

Northern is one of 3 / 4 franchises which is fighting for any scraps that come around to the lack of DMU investment except in Birmingham. Yes TPE got 185s but that order was interfered with and the units are still way too small for what they wanted purpose. It just seems that the only reason that electrificaion is coming around is because the South / Birmingham keeps finding more cast offs to send up North / Souh West. But hey if i diminishes he Pacer numbers....

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Tim Calow, chairman of the Aire Valley Rail User Group (AVRUG) said one of the major problems facing commuters is Northern’s “ageing” fleet of trains.

The new trains it secured in December were diesels previously used in London and Birmingham, which were built in the mid to late 1980s. Five “new” electric trains used on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines were sent south from Scotland, he said.

So what is the "problem" with ageing trains? Just introducing new trains will not in itself increase capacity, the 322s he dismisses will have as much capacity as any new built electric unit sent to replace them and from general observation there seem to be no more reliability issues with pacers/150s et al. than with more modern units.

 

[142094]

So what is the "problem" with ageing trains? Just introducing new trains will not in itself increase capacity, the 322s he dismisses will have as much capacity as any new built electric unit sent to replace them and from general observation there seem to be no more reliability issues with pacers/150s et al. than with more modern units.

Normal complaints about train services are overcrowding, cost of tickets and turning up on time. I'm sure if you ask, most passengers would rather have this worked on first before new stock is added to address the other problems.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Normal complaints about train services are overcrowding, cost of tickets and turning up on time. I'm sure if you ask, most passengers would rather have this worked on first before new stock is added to address the other problems.

Yep and i have to agree. Especially for commuting you want A-B not in someones armpit and on time with value for money fare.