Another Cross Country nightmare

[DarloRich]

It’s not really a company in the sense you seem to think it is; at least, not one with freedom of action or the ability to make decisions. It’s more an arm of government, conveniently (and cunningly, some might say!) disguised as a private company in order to deflect any adverse PR. Which seems to be working!

I know it is within the gift of the government to sort out. They should do so this evening. That and appoint me as supreme leader of cross country. I will do it for 250k a year and a free first class pass for life

I too have seen and travelled on grossly overcrowded trains (not just on XC)

XC are the worst of the lot by a long chalk. It isn't some special event or activity creating problems but a fleet of trains ( and seemingly management/operational principles) that are unfit for the required service.

but the solution is not to disadvantage some passengers for not really much benefit, but to improve the service offered

I would love the service to be improved but until such time as it is I want those 16 seats. It is 16 extra people sat down. Passengers should not be sitting on the floor. Passengers should not be crammed in next to a toilet for hours. We should ALL be ashamed by that. I honestly don't understand why people seek to defend such a situation! It is wrong.

I would still not want first class to be removed as it provides an option for a more comfortable journey, which I sometimes pay for on services I know will be especially busy.

I can't afford to pay for a non discounted first class ticket. I have a mortgage, bills and obligations to meet. Many, i would go as far as saying the majority, of XC customers are in the same boat. I am sure one can use seat frog (?) and get a great deal. Never seems to be one when I look mind..................

I have been on many services where first class has been fully occupied, and even some instances where first class passengers, who have paid for first class, have not been able to get a first class seat.

I hope they got the free refreshments!

If its just that you have to stand in standard, but not in an unsafe way, then you could pay for first class.

the point is you shouldn't HAVE to do that to get a seat. That's all I want: a seat. That doesn't seem like an unrealistic request. Things shouldn't be so bad that you have to pay extra to sit down and if it is we certainly shouldn't be seeking to defend such nonsense!

My view remains that until such time as XC can offer a proper service to all passengers they should remove first class and get people who are standing into those seats. It might only be 16 seats but it is 16 more people seated!

If there is enough capacity than one carriage of first class seems fair. That works on a a 9 car Avanti train. It would work on a 9 car XC train IMO. Sadly, that is perfect world stuff. At present the real world we live in means that on a 4 car train there just isnt the capacity to justify first and it should go. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that.

It's totally accepted that XC have a capacity problem, but it doesn't exist on every train on every part of every route at all times of every day.

A fair point: However I don't think 10 am on a monday morning on the NE edge of the XC network can be considered peak. What about noon on a Sunday? This wasn't the core Sheffield > Bristol XC network and it was still rammed! I assumed, perhaps naively, it would be ok capacity wise at such an extremity. It wasn't!

 

[Snow1964]

XC First class pricing is so high those passengers are likely subsidising everyone else onboard!

If you use the approximate basis that a standard class coach has 50% more seats, then the old BR idea that first class should be about 1.5 times the standard fare then neither class is on average subsidising the other.

Except Seatfrog will usually offer a much cheaper price and a significant number of first passengers are taking advantage, as were both the person opposite me and myself on a recent journey. But Seatfrogging may need a thread of its own.

If Seatfrog can do it, have to question why XC ticket pricing algorithms aren't able to do the same, why allow a third party to do it, if end up utilising same number of first class seats

Devils advocate, if you are sick of standing and First is empty then maybe it is time to pay the extra?

XC is supposed to be a long distance operator, standing was historically only for journeys upto 20 minutes. Have to question why XC is serving stations under 20 minutes apart and not leaving local journeys to other operators (except at fringes of network where demand is likely to be lower). If XC provided sufficient capacity wouldn't be regular standing.

Removing First would add a few seats but likely increase everyone else's fares AND see passengers (like me who pay for First so I can work) shift modes. Not sure it's the answer.

Correct, shouldn't be removing it, should be sorting out lack of capacity in standard instead, (converting or downgrading the remaining First class coach is just a bad bodge, not a way to encourage premium business.

I certainly don't agree with the idea of removing First Class on the Voyagers.
What I do question however is how busy is First Class in general at Weekends?
I realise it could vary route by route on Cross Country but my suggestion would be to offer Weekend First Upgrades at Weekends and Bank Holidays on routes where First Class isn't well utilised

Again have to question XC pricing algorithm that doesn't manage to offer prices at weekend that fill both classes proportionally. Shouldn't need weekend upgrades if they had adjusted prices and sold sensible proportions of First and Standard (to fill both classes) in their 12 weeks of ticket sales.

On services where first class usually has high occupancy I agree on fewer discounted advance fares. But if a service usually has spare seats in first class there is no reason not to offer them at a reduced price through advances, seatfrog...

Another comment that is also highlighting that the fault is in the XC pricing algorithm, failing to adjust prices to sell tickets with a First/standard split, that is reflective of the proportions of each class available

 

[VT 390]

I hope they got the free refreshments!

Catering was suspended between Birmingham and Bristol, where the service mostly emptied out.

the point is you shouldn't HAVE to do that to get a seat. That's all I want: a seat. That doesn't seem like an unrealistic request. Things shouldn't be so bad that you have to pay extra to sit down and if it is we certainly shouldn't be seeking to defend such nonsense!

My view remains that until such time as XC can offer a proper service to all passengers they should remove first class and get people who are standing into those seats. It might only be 16 seats but it is 16 more people seated!

I do agree you should not have to pay for first class to get a seat and I am not defending short Cross Country trains, which do need to be lengthened.

You do have the free option of making a seat reservation to get a seat. In all cases I have experienced where people have been unable to physically get to their reserved seats first class has been effectively declassified anyway.
However, with a standard class ticket you are paying to travel NOT for a seat, I am sure everyone who has to stand on ANY operator wants a seat but you can not always get one.
I accept Cross Country is a long distance operator where standing is more unpleasant than shorter local journeys but the extreme Cross Country overcrowding is usually on short flows such as Leeds to Sheffield and Birmingham to Coventry.

 

[DarloRich]

but the extreme Cross Country overcrowding is usually on short flows such as Leeds to Sheffield and Birmingham to Coventry.

that is absolutely NOT my experience. I have stood from Birmingham to Darlington many times. Mainly on a friday but still. I stood from Darlington to Doncaster this morning. I bailed out at Doncaster. I gave up there and got a different train and route home. It wasn't pleasant on XC.

However, with a standard class ticket you are paying to travel NOT for a seat,

That doesn't wash with people having to stand and paying handsomely for the pleasure. That is a really poor excuse.

I am sure everyone who has to stand on ANY operator wants a seat but you can not always get one.

ok - i would like a fair chance of getting a seat on the train I have paid for. That doesn't seem unrealistic - do you agree?

 

[VT 390]

That doesn't wash with people having to stand and paying handsomely for the pleasure. That is a really poor excuse.

Whether you think it is a poor excuse or not it is a fact of travelling by rail on National Rail services that in standard you are not paying for a seat.
With Cross Country I agree you should be able to get a seat in most cases, however until more stock arrives (either new build or cascaded old stock) it will not be possible to always get a seat and having first class (usually) guarantees a seat or at least compensation if not.

Now I do not think this is the situation we should be in with Cross Country, however it is and until more capacity is provided downgrading the existing service even more is not an appropriate solution.

ok - i would like a fair chance of getting a seat on the train I have paid for. That doesn't seem unrealistic - do you agree?

It would be completely unrealistic to expect a seat on many services. I would love a seat on every service I get but some services will always be far busier than is realistic to expect capacity for.
For example for everyone to get a seat on peak time services across most of London would require stupidly long trains.
Its part of travelling on public rail services that it will not always be possible to get a seat.


To clarify, I do completely agree the current cross country capacity situation needs addressing, but I am also being realistic about what is an is not possible with the current limitations.
I can in no way see the small capacity gains of removing first class to be more beneficial than the issues it would cause, including reducing revenue.

 

[Falcon1200]

Have to question why XC is serving stations under 20 minutes apart and not leaving local journeys to other operators (except at fringes of network where demand is likely to be lower).

Because people are joining at stations not that far apart for long distance journeys! Eg Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington and Coventry which are all less than 30 minutes apart.

 

[Killingworth]

My first memories of independent rail travel must be from the very early 1960s between York and Newcastle. Trains of corridor stock possibly 12 to 14 carriages long. Many would be standing in the corridors, some soldiers in uniform returning from Aden, Cyprus and other present and former colonies sitting on kit bags on rheir way to barracks at Catterick or Barnard Castle.

I learned that if I walked to the front of the train I might even get a compartment to myself.

That doesn't work with a XC train because those empty carriages may be locked out of use, and there's no walking through the train to get to them in a 2 unit train if they are available.

If travelling with my parents they paid £1 (later £2) for a guaranteed reserved seat. Maybe XC should try that, but I'd expect that would attract a storm too when squatters needed to be evicted!

 

[DarloRich]

To clarify, I do completely agree the current cross country capacity situation needs addressing, but I am also being realistic about what is an is not possible with the current limitations.

If you are going to defend first class provision give me an alternative. How do we get more people into seats? Not in 10 years but tomorrow. My view is take out first class. What could we do differently?

I can in no way see the small capacity gains of removing first class to be more beneficial than the issues it would cause, including reducing revenue.

I bet those sitting on the floor are paying more! My friend was on Sunday when she stood from Coventry to Sheffield on a full price non discounted ticket.

It would be completely unrealistic to expect a seat on many services.

I don't say that, I said i wanted a fair chance of getting a seat. Those 16 extra seats we could get by taking out FC improve those odds a touch.

downgrading the existing service even more is not an appropriate solution.

it isn't a downgrade for the majority! That's the point. I focus on the majority rather than the privileged minority. I understand why you want to keep FC. The reasons are obvious and understandable. Do you get why FC annoys me and, I suspect, others when the trains are so small?

Give me an alternative solution. Why cant everyone win a little?

 

[sh24]

Beyond sorting the staffing issues that prevent double sets running in service, I guess the other option is to increase standard fares to suppress demand. Or make all of the trains reservation mandatory so there is no scope for standing?

 

[DarloRich]

Beyond sorting the staffing issues that prevent double sets running in service,

that seems like an obvious "win" for all!

 

[VT 390]

If you are going to defend first class provision give me an alternative. How do we get more people into seats? Not in 10 years but tomorrow. My view is take out first class. What could we do differently?


I bet those sitting on the floor are paying more! My friend was on Sunday when she stood from Coventry to Sheffield on a full price non discounted ticket.

There will be passengers in both standard and first on cheaper and more expensive fares.

I don't say that, I said i wanted a fair chance of getting a seat. Those 16 extra seats we could get by taking out FC improve those odds a touch.

It would be a fair chance of getting a seat if you made a seat reservation. I appreciate for late notice journeys this is not always possible but if you are making a longer journey for which standing will be more of an issue most people would plan at least the day before.

it isn't a downgrade for the majority! That's the point. I focus on the majority rather than the privileged minority. I understand why you want to keep FC. The reasons are obvious and understandable. Do you get why FC annoys me and, I suspect, others when the trains are so small?

I do understand why you are against first class with the current situation, I just don't see removing it as bringing as big a benefit as you are suggesting when all factors are considered.

While some first class users may be in the privileged minority, I would strongly disagree this is always the case.
I know someone who finds standard class overwhelming and to enclosed, so the wider first class seats and more personal space are essential for them to be able to travel.
If first class were removed many passengers would still be standing but with the disadvantage there would be no way to avoid it as there is now, on most services, with first class.

Give me an alternative solution. Why cant everyone win a little?

A solution for you if you really want to (understandably) avoid Cross Country would be to use other operators services. In most cases this is possible even if it means either more changes or a longer route.

The solution for Cross Country is to get additional rolling stock, however this is not likely in sufficient quantities nay time soon. Also, if revenue were reduced (through no first class fares) there would be even less incentive to provide upgrades.

 

[DarloRich]

A solution for you if you really want to (understandably) avoid Cross Country would be to use other operators services.

I have had my reminder about XC and i wont be using them again if i can avoid it. I might just buy a car and not bother with the train at all. If i think that what do people without an interest in railways think? How many chances do they give the industry?

I do understand why you are against first class with the current situation, I just don't see removing it as bringing as big a benefit as you are suggesting when all factors are considered.

I see it as bringing 16 extra seats per train that folk can use to avoid sitting on the floor. It would bring those passengers a massive benefit! What factors am I missing?

The solution for Cross Country is to get additional rolling stock, however this is not likely in sufficient quantities nay time soon. Also, if revenue were reduced (through no first class fares) there would be even less incentive to provide upgrades.

my view is that revenue would be higher without first class due to not selling so many discounted first class fares!

I would strongly disagree this is always the case.

Anyone in first class is privileged. The privilege might be a railcard but that is still privilege as it gives you discounted access to a club the majority cant afford. With that privilege you get a seat and don't have to stand next to the toiler or sit on the floor.

The rest of us are crammed in the back with the lucky few getting a seat. I have had a enough of it.

 

[Killingworth]

The solution for Cross Country is to get additional rolling stock, however this is not likely in sufficient quantities nay time soon. Also, if revenue were reduced (through no first class fares) there would be even less incentive to provide upgupgrades.

Isn't that what they're trying to do with the Avanti cast offs?

What annoys me that is that 6 5 car units are currently out of service when they could be earning for owners Beacon and providing seats for us. And there seens to be no urgency to make a simple decision to lease them to XC.

It's all financial. It costs Beacon minimal sums to keep the units in the hope they'll be able to find a new lessor. There are no hints of any other apart from XC. Haggling time. That's complicated because running more trains is likely to add to XC's costs without attracting enough extra income to cover them.

But that's compounded by XC's lack of ataff to man the units they already have. Industrial relations issues on manning need resolving before recruiting more.

It's not a satisfactory state of affairs to explain to long suffering standing passengers, often for long distances.

It is, of course, possible that a more relaxed travelling experience would attract enough extra custom and income to pay for them.

 

[Tetragon213]

Isn't that what they're trying to do with the Avanti cast offs?

What annoys me that is that 6 5 car units are currently out of service when they could be earning for owners Beacon and providing seats for us. And there seens to be no urgency to make a simple decision to lease them to XC.

It's all financial. It costs Beacon minimal sums to keep the units in the hope they'll be able to find a new lessor. There are no hints of any other apart from XC. Haggling time. That's complicated because running more trains is likely to add to XC's costs without attracting enough extra income to cover them.

But that's compounded by XC's lack of ataff to man the units they already have. Industrial relations issues on manning need resolving before recruiting more.

It's not a satisfactory state of affairs to explain to long suffering standing passengers, often for long distances.

It is, of course, possible that a more relaxed travelling experience would attract enough extra custom and income to pay for them.

Ideally, they should get all the 220s/221s they can, and start forming them into longer "single" units to at least make an effort in reducing the impact of crew shortages.

Also, consider getting whatever rolling stock they can get their hands on, and put it to use. Class 67s and Mk4s with DVTs work well enough for TfW, and there isn't exactly a shortage of any of them (iirc there are something on the order of 150-ish Mk4s in storage? Meanwhile Wiki lists about 5 Class 67s, and 9 more DVTs in storage).

 

[sprinterguy]

(iirc there are something on the order of 150-ish Mk4s in storage? Meanwhile Wiki lists about 5 Class 67s, and 9 more DVTs in storage).

Pre-December '25 there weren't any mark 4s in store (excluding one rake on lease to TfW): The reduction in length of the LNER mark 4 rakes to seven carriages at that point released around sixteen vehicles - Two of which have been bought for preservation.

Class 67s with mark 4s would also be quite unable to match Voyager timings and haven't garnered a reputation for reliability and availability with TfW.

 

[VT 390]

Isn't that what they're trying to do with the Avanti cast offs?.

It is true cross country have got some of the ex Avanti class 221 however the really should have got all the ex Avanti units, including the 2 used by Grand Central.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is true cross country have got some of the ex Avanti class 221 however the really should have got all the ex Avanti units, including the 2 used by Grand Central.

Grand Central have absolutely no need for those Voyagers when they have ten Adelantes and could very well make use of four more languishing in Ely. Their same two routes were serviced with three HSTs and five Adelantes until 2018.

It will be a farce if the DfT don't sign off on the eight 221s that CrossCountry don't already have. As the MD herself recently told Modern Railways, if they got them, they could do away with booked single four car Voyager formations altogether.

One thing I have noticed is five carriage 221s seem to be the standard for Manchester - Bournemouth/Bristol, with the four carriage 220s more common both singly and in pairs on Edinburgh - Plymouth. I note which Voyagers I get for over 100 miles, and until I move to Worcester next week, I've had to commute from Manchester to Oxford and Reading several times each week. I've had two 220s, one of which was in a 220+221 formation, and about seventeen or eighteen 221s.

Several days I've also checked RTT under "All day" and found everything 5 cars on Bournemouth except an early morning northbound 4 car.

Obviously this is great for the NE SW route when the 220s are doubles, of course, but less so when the second portion is closed or non-existent. At least on Manchesters the 5-221s are a happy medium, not quite an 8 car, but not a 4 car either.

 

[irish_rail]

Today between Birmingham and Exeter just one voyager pairing, everything else full and standing 4 and the odd 5 car sets. Is there more sets out of use than normal? Where on earth are the pairs being used? One single train of decent length all day isn't acceptable.

 

[VT 390]

Today between Birmingham and Exeter just one voyager pairing, everything else full and standing 4 and the odd 5 car sets. Is there more sets out of use than normal? Where on earth are the pairs being used? One single train of decent length all day isn't acceptable.

Could the planned closure today between York and Leeds be affecting the class 220/221 sets out today and which services are planned for double Voyagers as there are no Cross County services at all today between Leeds and Newcastle.

 

[Hairyspotter]

Today between Birmingham and Exeter just one voyager pairing, everything else full and standing 4 and the odd 5 car sets. Is there more sets out of use than normal? Where on earth are the pairs being used? One single train of decent length all day isn't acceptable.

They're likely one set short after an incident in the week, but the single sets may also be a result of insufficient staff to run as doubles.

 

[irish_rail]

Could the planned closure today between York and Leeds be affecting the class 220/221 sets out today and which services are planned for double Voyagers as there are no Cross County services at all today between Leeds and Newcastle.

You'd think without having to run trains between Exeter and Plymouth and Leeds and Newcastle that there would be MORE Voyagers available to double up. I wonder how many Manchester to Bournemouths where doubles (if any) today?

 

[Killingworth]

You'd think without having to run trains between Exeter and Plymouth and Leeds and Newcastle that there would be MORE Voyagers available to double up. I wonder how many Manchester to Bournemouths where doubles (if any) today?

Not helped this weekend by all XC trains having to reverse at Sheffield to go via Barrow Hill due to bridge replacement work beside Dore & Totley Junction.

 

[irish_rail]

Looking at Realtime trains, the Reading to Manchester route had a handful of double sets and lots of 5 cars, few 4 cars. So why the 4s being concentrated on the NE to SW I wonder?

 

[VT 390]

You'd think without having to run trains between Exeter and Plymouth and Leeds and Newcastle that there would be MORE Voyagers available to double up.

I was thinking the Voyagers that start from Edinburgh Craigentinny in the morning would not be worked south of Newcastle, from what I can see a lot of the double Edinburgh to Plymouth sets are on services starting at Edinburgh in the morning.
I am not saying they could not/should not have made alternative arrangements to allow for more double sets to work to Exeter but this may be a factor in the reasoning for unit allocations on Sunday.

 

[irish_rail]

I was thinking the Voyagers that start from Edinburgh Craigentinny in the morning would not be worked south of Newcastle, from what I can see a lot of the double Edinburgh to Plymouth sets are on services starting at Edinburgh in the morning.
I am not saying they could not/should not have made alternative arrangements to allow for more double sets to work to Exeter but this may be a factor in the reasoning for unit allocations on Sunday.

I'm sure you are correct. I'd just hope that after 20 years of Voyager operations that XC controllers would be able to do a better job of getting the right units to end at the right depot. Letting loads of sets get stuck in Edinburgh for the weekend is a waste of stock, and a few early morning short forms first thing this morning out of Edinburgh really wouldn't have been the end of the world.

 

[185143]

I'm approaching Macclesfield on the 17:45 from Bournemouth-Manchester. Went for a Seatfrog upgrade and was winning at £11 for a good few hours, but some bar steward outbid me with 2 seconds to go.

The busiest part of the journey was between Birmingham International and New Street. I've had this table to myself the whole way, the table opposite has largely had a single occupant on it too (a few different people, mind). This has genuinely been a really pleasant journey and for £21.60, excellent value too.

Just one complaint. No catering has been provided AT ALL. With no warning on XC's journey check either. I had one bottle of Pepsi Max which I finished at Coventry and didn't bring any food, so I'll be quite glad to reach Manchester. Maybe with hindsight I should have known better than to rely on a trolley service, but without any indication it would be unavailable I'm quite within my rights to do so. It's a longer journey than London-Edinburgh and you'd certainly expect catering there. Wouldn't even dawn on me to check if it was available or not for that journey. The TM leaving Bournemouth was pretty apologetic and fully agreed it wasn't good enough, but obviously there was nothing he could do about it.

Knowing how empty Standard has been and with the lack of catering, I'd be pretty annoyed if I'd won that upgrade!

 

[WillC]

Another LDS-SOU trip and worse than ever. Train down was 4 instead of 9 coaches, no reservations, stood to Coventry. Split journey back at Bristol, got a train from BPW on Saturday afternoon which was fine to BHM, where I changed. It was very much not fine after that.
I think there may have been a cancellation, plus a football game, but another under-formed 4 coach unit turned up. Standing room only doesn't begin to describe the horror. It was a sardine job, no one could move, and dropping a phone etc would have been a gymnastic job to retrieve. A young kid was between my legs sheltering. No one could get to the toilet let alone whatever refreshments may have existed. It was extremely hot and the air was fetid. I am able-bodied and struggled to cope, wedged against a door in the vestibule. A lady in a wheelchair was very distressed by the experience. The journey cost me £168.

How can this be acceptable? How is it OK to provide 1/2 a train? How can a TOC deliver such a bad service, where people genuinely suffer physically and mentally, with no redress? The train was ~20 mins late so no ability to claim money back there. But the time isn't the issue. It was a disgusting experience for everyone, including the guard judging by her comments after Sheffield.

I'm sick of XC, and the general apathy - we just put up with it, because we know complaining gets us nowhere. I hope they lose their franchise as soon as possible. I'd also like compensation for the appalling experience, and have made a formal complaint. I just don't expect it to go anywhere.

Next time it's LNER via London.

 

[dk1]

As has been said many times they will not lose their franchise and nothing much would change if they did.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really need a consolidated hate thread for XC. No, they won't lose their franchise and nearly all the issues they have are outwith their control and imposed by political choices.

 

[WillC]

Whatever the root cause something has to change. It’s indefensible. At the very least tickets should be refunded.