Another container comes off train....

[Bodiddly]

Whilst I do agree something should be done about this to lower the risk of a collision further I have to ask

1) How many containers have come off in the last year?
2) How many containers were moved in the last year?
3) How many passenger services pass container freights in the last year
4) Wont somebody please think of the children

1) One is too much.
2) Couldn't possibly answer that, I assume millions but refer to answer 1
3) Just because there hasn't been a crash yet it doesn't mean it couldn't happen, refer to answer 1.
4) I am! That's the reason why we should always refer to answer 1!

 

[Aldaniti]

So its only by luck that there hasn't been a serious accident in how many years? And if there is one now then it is only because of profit driven companies compromising safety?

And I take it you are qualified and have carried out a full risk assessment on the containers and the wagons they are carried on to come to your conclusion then?


Im off to bury my qualified head in the sand.

Oh dear.

Plenty of well qualified people ignored lots of things that were wrong on the railway.... until 17th October 2000. The immediate and long term consequences are well documented.

 

[GB]

Only by luck has there not been a serious accident because of this. Even today, winds remain high and you can see Freightliner and Intermodal trains travelling at full line speed. As I say, profit before safety. Please feel free to dismiss or bury heads in sand, I just hope that nobody is killed if another comes off.

I will repeat the question clip asked. What makes you qualified to state there is a problem with all the FEA wagons?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh dear.

Plenty of well qualified people ignored lots of things that were wrong on the railway.... until 17th October 2000. The immediate and long term consequences are well documented.

Yes, and blame and accountability has come on along way since then also.

 

[Bodiddly]

For goodness sake! How qualified do you need to be to understand that a fast passenger train running straight into a strewn container is a disaster waiting to happen? A Container falling off a flatbed is totally preventable by locking it in position, the only argument, if you can call it that, is how it affects the industry as a whole. If it is cost prohibitive to walk the length of the train and lock each container in place, then a cost effective system of locking the containers on the whole train by using an electrical or air based locking system has to be found.
With a number of incidents being reported, the industry needs to look for a solution. If not, the RAIB will find them one which will most probably be more expensive in the long run.
I think we would all agree that we don't want to see someone losing their life because of a cost implication.

 

[ac6000cw]

I definitely don't put myself in the 'safety at any cost' category, but we are talking here about a real risk (as in containers have come off trains several times already) with a known solution (put pins in to secure them on wagon types known to be vulnerable to it).

If this happens again and luck runs out and a passenger train hits it at speed, the FOC concerned will get publicly (metaphorically) crucified - and locking down containers on all trains will become mandatory....

I assume that basic 'fitness to run' inspections are still required before a freight train departs the terminal (pipes, couplings, handbrakes, brake continuity test etc.) so is it really that much extra cost to put in some metal pins (on just the 'at risk' wagon types) when someone has inspect the train anyway ?

I know there are rules about doing it when wind speeds are above a certain level etc. but that requires judgement calls (and accurate wind speed forecasts along the whole route) - surely the simple thing would be to fit pins at all times on the 'at risk' wagons, no judgement calls and communications needed...

 

[edwin_m]

We have now established, thanks to GB, that all four incidents we know about are associated with one type of mounting on two very similar types of wagon. RAIB has already suggested that the previous risk mitigation of pinning containers down to those wagons when high winds are forecast is insufficient, so these wagons need to be modified or a more stringent working practice such as pinning them on every day should be introduced.

Oh dear.

Plenty of well qualified people ignored lots of things that were wrong on the railway.... until 17th October 2000. The immediate and long term consequences are well documented.

That was down to lack of understanding within Railtrack of the safety issues involved, by people whose qualifications may have been good but weren't of any assistance in allowing the people that mattered to do their jobs properly*. After the initial failure to repair the defect, there was a massive overreaction by Railtrack in assuming that all similar rails were also defective. This caused a good deal of disruption for passengers, and quite possibly extra casualties due to people going by road instead.

What you are proposing would lead to a similar knee-jerk reaction, a small but significant increase to the risk faced by staff at container depots, and probably a small but significant increase in risk to the general public because transporting containers by rail would get slower and/or more expensive and more of them would go by road.

*some did, but not the ones that mattered.

 

[lincolnshire]

Back in the days of British Rail and start of Freightliner ( part of BR ) didn,t there wagons have locking devices to stop containers falling off the trains?I can remember something about a blue light at the end of the wagon to say the clamps was working and in position. There must have been some sort of locking as the the guards accommodation was a caboose style thing (like a small container) placed on the back of the train. Don,t think the guard would have been impressed if it had been like these containers are now on fitted on a train.
Will we have to wait for another Selby crash, that all started with a land rover and car on a trailer and was not helped by a driving trailer at the front of the train and loco at the back pushing, not as much weight as the loco at the front to dislodge something off the track.
We will just have to wait and see how many more fall off before something happens once and for all.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back in the days of British Rail and start of Freightliner ( part of BR ) didn,t there wagons have locking devices to stop containers falling off the trains?I can remember something about a blue light at the end of the wagon to say the clamps was working and in position. There must have been some sort of locking as the the guards accommodation was a caboose style thing (like a small container) placed on the back of the train. Don,t think the guard would have been impressed if it had been like these containers are now on fitted on a train.
Will we have to wait for another Selby crash, that all started with a land rover and car on a trailer and was not helped by a driving trailer at the front of the train and loco at the back pushing, not as much weight as the loco at the front to dislodge something off the track.
We will just have to wait and see how many more fall off before something happens once and for all.

Much / sooner than later - the concept of the "twistlock" was invented and very simple and effective. Must have secured sever 000 boxes on flatwagosn with no issues.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

In the long term could they develop a method of locking them onto the wagons as they are put in place. Possibly using the same method used when they're loaded onto container ships

 

[Aldaniti]

For goodness sake! How qualified do you need to be to understand that a fast passenger train running straight into a strewn container is a disaster waiting to happen?

Quite. To paraphrase an old saying, one is an accident, two might have been avoidable, three is careless, four .....

Lets just hope that a fifth doesn't cause a more serious incident because if it does, the railway knew there was a problem and someone will be culpable. Very culpable.

 

[SPADTrap]

and someone will be culpable. Very culpable.

Who's that someone?

 

[tra1nsp0tter]

Do the wagons, that are supposed to hold the container on to the wagon, have a different type of spigot/container lock, compared to HGV Lorry trailers?

I ask because, I don't think that the containers blow off HGV's as often as they are on the freight trains.

& before anyone says anything about lorries blowing over etc, i am specifically talking about
Container transport.

 

[Zamracene749]

Road trailers are fitted with twistlocks. These are simple and take seconds to use, they push upwards then twist 90 degrees to toggle into the already provided locking holes in each corner of the box. They will allow a very small movement of the box but it could not be blown off, the vehicle would roll over before that happened.

See illustration (the flat plate with the oval hole is part of the container)

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...LPF6Th_ZZriY9mbxJCye6CF61cs0tNIPpNSazY9SBxXWi

I've worked on road trucks years ago and was amazed to hear that rail containers are allowed to simply sit on locating pins to ease the loading/unloading process!

 

[tra1nsp0tter]

Road trailers are fitted with twistlocks. These are simple and take seconds to use, they push upwards then twist 90 degrees to toggle into the already provided locking holes in each corner of the box. They will allow a very small movement of the box but it could not be blown off, the vehicle would roll over before that happened.

See illustration (the flat plate with the oval hole is part of the container)

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...LPF6Th_ZZriY9mbxJCye6CF61cs0tNIPpNSazY9SBxXWi

I've worked on road trucks years ago and was amazed to hear that rail containers are allowed to simply sit on locating pins to ease the loading/unloading process!

Thanks for explaining that beermaddavep, & you also just clarified what I thought, that the containers do not blow off lorries. Cheers

 

[edwin_m]

Trains are subject to much lower and more controlled accelerations as they never take tight corners or brake sharply and are involved in accidents very much less often than road vehicles.

I can find no figures on the rate of container losses on the roads, but TRL report PPR691 considers uneven container loadings on road and rail and has some useful statistics. The rate of overturning of container lorries on the UK network fell to about one per year in 2012, which is similar to the rate of loss of rail containers from wagons in recent years. The tonne-km of containers transported by road and rail is also about the same, so the accident rate is also similar.

However, the rate of container loss on rail is likely to fall to zero once the hinged spigot issue is finally dealt with, since there is no history of containers being lost from wagons with non-hinged spigots. The rate of lorry overturnings may fall further but is unlikely to be as rapid. These figures also support the idea that twistlocks are necessary on road vehicles but not on rail wagons, because a container loss requires less forces than an overturning so if lorries did not have twistlocks there would be a lot more container losses than there are overturnings.

 

[D60]

BR's Freightliner container service started, I think, in 1965.. and in the subsequent half century the railway has successfully moved countless numbers of containers up and down the network without them blowing off or becoming dislodged.. until these recently documented cases...

So what has changed..? Well, I don't suppose it's the wind.. ("wrong kind of wind", anyone..?)

Rather, it seems we've narrowed it down to one particular design of container flat... Is there also any suggestion of changes in operating procedures being an issue here..?

Well anyway, it all seems quite ludicrous that 4 such events have now happened, and basic safety on the railway is still being put at risk, very avoidably..! (As half a century of safe container transport by rail amply demonstrates..)

Sort it out, whichever regulatory body regulates in this field (no pun intended when containers are blowing off trains into farmers' fields..).. It ain't rocket salad..!

 

[Aldaniti]

Its a funny old world. Not long ago, Network Rail banned the use of steam locomotives on the Eastern Region because an operator, allegedly, wasn't operating as per instructions regarding fire risk safety. Now, we have a situation where multiple risks are being taken every day, each with the ability to cause an accident, arguably, of more consequence to that of fire hazzard, yet Network Rail continue to let these trains run during the daytime when most will pass numerous passenger trains, and at line speed. Someone at Network Rail is either taking a calculated risk with lives, or is very brave indeed.

 

[DarloRich]

Thanks for explaining that beermaddavep, & you also just clarified what I thought, that the containers do not blow off lorries. Cheers

Correct: Instead with a road vehicle the whole wagon blows over :roll:

BR's Freightliner container service started, I think, in 1965.. and in the subsequent half century the railway has successfully moved countless numbers of containers up and down the network without them blowing off or becoming dislodged.. until these recently documented cases...

So what has changed..? Well, I don't suppose it's the wind.. ("wrong kind of wind", anyone..?)

Rather, it seems we've narrowed it down to one particular design of container flat... Is there also any suggestion of changes in operating procedures being an issue here..?

Well anyway, it all seems quite ludicrous that 4 such events have now happened, and basic safety on the railway is still being put at risk, very avoidably..! (As half a century of safe container transport by rail amply demonstrates..)

Sort it out, whichever regulatory body regulates in this field (no pun intended when containers are blowing off trains into farmers' fields..).. It ain't rocket salad..!

Containers falling off trains isn't a new phenomenon you know.............

 

[jonty14]

So its only by luck that there hasn't been a serious accident in how many years? And if there is one now then it is only because of profit driven companies compromising safety?

And I take it you are qualified and have carried out a full risk assessment on the containers and the wagons they are carried on to come to your conclusion then?


Im off to bury my qualified head in the sand.

Profit does come before safety. Fact of life. Are you qualified to prove they are safe? Don't dig at peoples opinions.

 

[Clip]

For goodness sake! How qualified do you need to be to understand that a fast passenger train running straight into a strewn container is a disaster waiting to happen?

Has anybody denied this or is your OUTRAGE meter hitting red and going off the scale here?

Profit does come before safety. Fact of life. Are you qualified to prove they are safe? Don't dig at peoples opinions.

The railway we have is now one of the most safety conscious businesses in the country which has come about unfortunately through lessons being learned due to accidents, some that have come about by people not doing their job properly and some through those which have come about by something that has been overlooked.

I have not once said they are or are not safe - I haven't looked at them in enough detail. That is why my question to that poster was a pertinent one because unless they have looked and made a qualified report about the containers and wagons they are on then whatever they come out with is just hyperbole based on a few toppled containers in the last year.


Rational thinking and not even answering my 3 questions seems to have gone out the window here in favour of some Daily Mail-esq squealing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for explaining that beermaddavep, & you also just clarified what I thought, that the containers do not blow off lorries. Cheers

You are quite correct in that they don't, however you may not have seen the news today about lorries in particular
http://www.express.co.uk/pictures/g...jor-disruption/A-lorry-lies-on-its-side-52569

And so on and so forth. And everytime one of those falls over there is a high risk that the driver or his passenger may be killed as well as other road users - and they happen more often than containers off wagons so where is peoples outrage at these then?

 

[Benno]

Network Rail continue to let these trains run during the daytime when most will pass numerous passenger trains, and at line speed. Someone at Network Rail is either taking a calculated risk with lives, or is very brave indeed.

Not really, Network Rail, and the Met Office regularly update Toc / Foc controls with adverse weather warnings. Yesterday morning Network Rail issued a strong wind warning to all Freight Company Controls that specifically included the following wording:

"Any trains which include FEA(B) or FEA(E) vehicles conveying empty containers are required to adhere to a reduction in maximum speed to 60mph. If containers can be confirmed to have been mechanically locked to the wagons then normal speed can be authorised.

Forecast wind speeds in excess of 65mph will require trains conveying FEA(B) or FEA(E) wagons to not enter traffic without first having empty containers either removed from the train or mechanically locked to the wagons"

And before anyone asks, no I cannot link to an internal document.

 

[Aldaniti]

Not really, Network Rail, and the Met Office regularly update Toc / Foc controls with adverse weather warnings. Yesterday morning Network Rail issued a strong wind warning to all Freight Company Controls that specifically included the following wording:

"Any trains which include FEA(B) or FEA(E) vehicles conveying empty containers are required to adhere to a reduction in maximum speed to 60mph. If containers can be confirmed to have been mechanically locked to the wagons then normal speed can be authorised.

Forecast wind speeds in excess of 65mph will require trains conveying FEA(B) or FEA(E) wagons to not enter traffic without first having empty containers either removed from the train or mechanically locked to the wagons"

And before anyone asks, no I cannot link to an internal document.

Benno, I'm obliged to you for posting that. It's good to know that Network Rail acknowledge that there's a problem and hopefully a long term and universal solution can be arrived at soon.