Annual All-Lines Pass: could it ever work?

[Bald Rick]

Are we saying that it's the punctual trains that are busy? Or that it's the late trains that are even busier and are often overcrowded? Or something else?

Something else.

Busier trains become later on their journeys, mostly due to extended dwell times, but also due to slower acceleration (for certain types of train).

 

[Trainbike46]

There is a proven statistical link between the level of crowding on trains and their punctuality.





DB’s problems are multi-faceted, part of it is overcrowding, part of it is sweating the assets more to deal with the numbers (ie using the network more intensively, causing more wear and tear, and less time for maintenance), and part of it is they have less money due to the lower price tickets. A perfekt storm for them, which is now coming home to roost.

While these tickets (the €49 and previously the €9 tickets) clearly make things worse, DBs problems way predate the start of either, so they can't have been to blame.

a non-exhaustive list of issues that predate the above tickets that I'm aware of:
- A railway bridge that was hit by a ship and collapsed NINE years ago has not yet reopened due to the time (re)construction is taking (Friesenbrucke, collapsed december 2015)
- Cross-border ICE services requireing an unrealistic number of units in service, leading to frequent cancellations due to unit unavailabilit (now resolved due to new units)
- Significant staff shortages leading to cancellations (before covid, mostly on regional operators)
- A highly utilised and intertwined network leading to delays spreading across the network

Obviously, almost all of the above gets worse with overcrowding, but it is disingenuous to pretend that the german railways were doing well before covid and the 9/49 euro tickets

 

[A S Leib]

Cross-border ICE services requireing an unrealistic number of units in service, leading to frequent cancellations due to unit unavailabilit (now resolved due to new units)

Is that why there's mandatory reservations for, as far as I'm aware, all international services to / from Germany except Luxembourg – Koblenz and the local Aachen – Liège services during the summer peak, or would they likely be put in place anyway?

 

[ABB125]

Is that why there's mandatory reservations for, as far as I'm aware, all international services to / from Germany except Luxembourg – Koblenz and the local Aachen – Liège services during the summer peak, or would they likely be put in place anyway?

Those reservations were put in place for the football tournament, and the consequent large volume of international travellers

 

[Trainbike46]

Is that why there's mandatory reservations for, as far as I'm aware, all international services to / from Germany except Luxembourg – Koblenz and the local Aachen – Liège services during the summer peak, or would they likely be put in place anyway?

I think that's because demand exceeds capacity on most of those routes, but of course it is related, because if you're already planning in more units than you can realistically provide, there is no scope to increase capacity any further, whether by running more units or by running with double-length units.

Though the new ICE 3neo should help with both issues

Those reservations were put in place for the football tournament, and the consequent large volume of international travellers

Mandatory reservations on cross-border journeys were already a thing on many cross-border ICEs, including those to Denmark and the Netherlands before the football tournament, though I am sure it increased demand further!

 

[birchesgreen]

A weekend rover that could be used all year would suit me.

 

[A S Leib]

Could an alternative be to provide a pass with a set mileage limit, perhaps separating intercity and other mileages or excluding intercity services altogether? A non-digital pass like that could be difficult to keep track of though.

 

[JonathanH]

A weekend rover that could be used all year would suit me.

I'm sure it would, but what benefit does the railway derive from offering such a weekend rover?

Could an alternative be to provide a pass with a set mileage limit

Isn't the alternative just to stick with the current arrangements where passengers pay for each journey they take at a fare deemed appropriate for that journey with a number of regionally based travel tickets it someone needs to go to more than one place in the locality?

 

[MrJeeves]

There used to be, did there not, and annual season ticket "to any BR station" - which is pretty much what this suggestion is.

Does anyone know what it cost - and how that compares in present day terms with the comparative tickets being use above - when it was axed, and if any were ever actually sold?

According to my copy of NFM42, dated May - Sept 1989:



A rudimentary Bank of England inflation calculation puts the standard "All Line" season at about £16,700 and the first class one at £24,400. The Any BR station would be £16,050/£23,750.

Not too far off some of the quoted prices in here!

 

[zwk500]

A rudimentary Bank of England inflation calculation puts the standard "All Line" season at about £16,700 and the first class one at £24,400. The Any BR station would be £16,050/£23,750.

Not too far off some of the quoted prices in here!

And if you use the ONS's figure for rail fare inflation (513, indexed to 1987 = 100), it would be £32,000 or thereabouts for a yearly single today!

RPI: fares & other travel costs: rail fares (Jan 1987=100) - Office for National Statistics

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[Trainbike46]

I'm sure it would, but what benefit does the railway derive from offering such a weekend rover?

Some countries offer weekend-only and off-peak only passes to help spread demand more evenly across the day, e.g. the Netherlands has "Weekeinde Vrij" and "Dal Vrij" products

 

[bspahh]

I think an Annual All Line Rover with no restrictions would be too expensive to be attractive to many people. If you add restrictions for travel only off peak, then it would get people to commit to spending a big chunk of money, where they still might need to spend more for travel at peak hours.

I think a good promotional scheme for rail travel should:

1. Have a low barrier to entry, so people who don't use trains are encouraged to try them out, and have an incentive to use them more.
2. Discounts should be progressive without sharp thresholds where the price changes suddenly.
3. There should be gentle encouragement people to use lightly loaded services. A rover ticket doesn't do this. Peak/off peak tickets mean you get half empty peak services and rammed full off peak ones.
4. They should be easy to understand.

I think the German City+ scheme is good, where a long distance ticket includes local travel at either end. Its easy to understand and gives passengers flexibility on services which are probably better at handling overcrowding.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure it would, but what benefit does the railway derive from offering such a weekend rover?


Isn't the alternative just to stick with the current arrangements where passengers pay for each journey they take at a fare deemed appropriate for that journey with a number of regionally based travel tickets it someone needs to go to more than one place in the locality?

The railway doesn't exist to "derive benefit", it exists to serve the travelling public.

 

[signed]

Or have the same thing as SBB HalfFare+

You put a deposit, and get some amount of bonus back. If you travel under the deposit, you get the difference back, if you travel over the deposit amount you have the bonus (non-refundable). It's a way to both entice new Travellers and reward the biggest ones

 

[aavm]

It has to be a political thing.
And simple.
And have a daily version, not just a monthly version to encourage infrequent travellers
Maybe split by local/regional/inter-city trains, or by (very large) zones
Cancel HS2, and all trains could be free, even peak! Even I'd vote Labour.

 

[A S Leib]

Cancel HS2, and all trains could be free, even peak!

Absolutely no chance you'd have enough capacity without HS2.

I think the final estimates for London – Manchester pre-cancellation to Manchester were ~£100 bn; charging £1 per three miles driven would bring in that amount, assuming people didn't start driving less as a result.

 

[miklcct]

The products which I can see a market include:
- Annual / Monthly regional anytime zonal season tickets, i.e. the same concept with a London Travelcard, but expanded in scope. Useful for commuters who don't have a fixed place to work.

- Off-peak season tickets (valid after 09:30 weekdays and anytime weekend) - to encourage off-peak commuting and shift passenger loads off peak trains.

- Extra weekend validity on season tickets: to encourage part time commuters to buy a season ticket to use the train instead of driving their own cars for leisure. For example, all Travelcards, no matter the zonal validity, can be used in zones 1-9 on weekends without extra cost.

Some countries offer weekend-only and off-peak only passes to help spread demand more evenly across the day, e.g. the Netherlands has "Weekeinde Vrij" and "Dal Vrij" products

If there is a weekend-only Network & South East season ticket I'll get a great benefit from it.

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely the point that is not being expressed here is that on the BahnCard or similar - the calculation is that people will make journeys worth at or around €50 euro. That’s how every subscription model works - no-one at Netflix HQ values the entire content library at £8 a month - but it’s a price they feel they can get for the average that people might consume.

So the Commuter on the Ashford route is unlikely to pop to Wick every Tuesday to maximise use of their card, and therefore adding that journey to their subscription is irrelevant, since aside from a week or two of holidays where they will seek to maximise its use, it will be an unused bit of their subscription.

I do wonder given the forever promises of fares reform, and the Byzantine layers of complicated pricing and demand management which UK rail has suffered from for years, some variant of a subscription model which cuts through said layers may be simpler than trying to unpick the fares system, with all the winners and losers that would bring. Even if what is included in the package might largely be unused.

To cope with the regional differences, one wonders if two other ways of looking at this might be:

A Card which you get with season tickets over a given value (argue about that value) which gives you a carnet of “go anywhere” days inclusive, essentially following the rewards flight model of airlines, where people’s day to day travel is rewarded by a “free” holiday flight.

Some reform of the “family” group ticketing model, such as an extension of the “kids go free” scheme which might more challenge the comedy pricing for middle distance journeys which are usually much more affordable by car, so could probably be advertised as a green measure too. The issue here is of course we are using that pricing to manage demand on under resourced railways … mainly onto the M1, it seems.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

According to my copy of NFM42, dated May - Sept 1989:

View attachment 163176

A rudimentary Bank of England inflation calculation puts the standard "All Line" season at about £16,700 and the first class one at £24,400. The Any BR station would be £16,050/£23,750.

Not too far off some of the quoted prices in here!

That's really interesting, thank you - the only difference I can see between the two versions ( I never knew there were two versions, by the way ) apart from one only being available for annual use seems to be the availability of the domestic ferries on the that one?

Was 1989 the last year these were issued?

 

[MrJeeves]

the only difference I can see between the two versions ( I never knew there were two versions, by the way ) apart from one only being available for annual use seems to be the availability of the domestic ferries on the that one?

I believe that's the case, yes. I don't know about you, but unless I lived on one of the islands where those ferries ran, I'd probably not pay the extra £250 upfront...

Was 1989 the last year these were issued?

Given I was born in the early 2000s, I have no way of conclusively telling you.

According to another thread on here, it was still present in internal documentations up until at least 2009, but had been discontinued by that point according to ATOC, but someone else had reported seeing one "recently" in July of 2009, so it may well have been discontinued around 2008-09, with the last few ticket holders using them until their expiry then.

At some point, the ticket was available but not to the general public, and instead had to be specifically "applied for" to Rail Settlement Plan if someone wanted to enquire about purchasing one.

"Any Station" in NFM03

While nosing about (by putting an asterisk into the destination box), I've found some unusual "Any Station"s listed, such as ANY BR STATION or ANY MERSEYR STN. What are/were these used for?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[yorksrob]

Surely the point that is not being expressed here is that on the BahnCard or similar - the calculation is that people will make journeys worth at or around €50 euro. That’s how every subscription model works - no-one at Netflix HQ values the entire content library at £8 a month - but it’s a price they feel they can get for the average that people might consume.

So the Commuter on the Ashford route is unlikely to pop to Wick every Tuesday to maximise use of their card, and therefore adding that journey to their subscription is irrelevant, since aside from a week or two of holidays where they will seek to maximise its use, it will be an unused bit of their subscription.

I do wonder given the forever promises of fares reform, and the Byzantine layers of complicated pricing and demand management which UK rail has suffered from for years, some variant of a subscription model which cuts through said layers may be simpler than trying to unpick the fares system, with all the winners and losers that would bring. Even if what is included in the package might largely be unused.

To cope with the regional differences, one wonders if two other ways of looking at this might be:

A Card which you get with season tickets over a given value (argue about that value) which gives you a carnet of “go anywhere” days inclusive, essentially following the rewards flight model of airlines, where people’s day to day travel is rewarded by a “free” holiday flight.

Some reform of the “family” group ticketing model, such as an extension of the “kids go free” scheme which might more challenge the comedy pricing for middle distance journeys which are usually much more affordable by car, so could probably be advertised as a green measure too. The issue here is of course we are using that pricing to manage demand on under resourced railways … mainly onto the M1, it seems.

Whilst what you say makes sense, it doesn't happen because such a scheme would reduce the ability of the powers that be to fleece as much money out of passengers as possible.

 

[CyrusWuff]

All Lines Passes are still available, though now come in the form of a Smartcard. Holders tend to be railway adjacent (e.g. Railway Chaplains) who don't qualify for normal travel facilities.

 

[MrJeeves]

All Lines Passes are still available, though now come in the form of a Smartcard. Holders tend to be railway adjacent (e.g. Railway Chaplains) who don't qualify for normal travel facilities.

I assume that means it isn't simply something you can email RDG and ask to buy as a member of the public then :P

 

[CyrusWuff]

I assume that means it isn't simply something you can email RDG and ask to buy as a member of the public then :P

You can certainly ask, just expect to be told no.

I think Geoff and Vicki had them for All the Stations, rather than multiple All Line Rovers.

 

[yorksrob]

All Lines Passes are still available, though now come in the form of a Smartcard. Holders tend to be railway adjacent (e.g. Railway Chaplains) who don't qualify for normal travel facilities.

A pass that's not available to the general public doesn't really count in this context. Otherwise one might as well argue that priv fares are "available" even though the public has no access to them.

 

[A S Leib]

Four three-month global Interrail passes come to €3824 / £3252, although of course that's not an option for daily use for most people in GB.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

From today's Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-call-for-unlimited-climate-card-uk-rail-pass

Renationalising the railways does not go far enough – Labour should spur a rail renaissance by allowing people around the UK unlimited train travel for a flat fee, campaigners have said.

Under a “climate card” system, passengers could pay a simple subscription to gain access to train travel across all services. This could be effective if set at £49 a month, according to research published on Thursday, though travellers on fast long-distance trains and those on routes in and through London would need to pay a top-up to reflect the greater demand on those services.

(lots more in the full article and, no, I'm not going to break their copyright by copying and pasting the full text here )

 

[JonathanH]

How is this a 'rail renaissance'?

That implies that no one uses the railway. As the article points out, they would need to charge extra to use the popular parts of the network. There are better ways to encourage the use of spare capacity without overloading the bits that passengers are already using.

Any research of this nature just seems to be people who already use the railway hoping to use it more and pay less for it. That doesn't reduce pollution unless there is genuine and tangible modal shift.

 

[Starmill]

The real reason that none of this works properly for this country is because the capacity provided by our trains is pretty trivial on all but the busiest routes. Manchester - Sheffield, Leeds - Hull, Edinburgh - Perth, Wrexham - Chester, Salisbury - Southampton, Reading - Gatwick Airport, Antrim - Belfast... you name it, any part of the country nearly except for major routes to and from central London, all completely trivial in capacity terms, less than a modern segregated two-lane road, even one where every vehicle only carries one person. Note loads of those are competing with two and three lane grade-separated highways. And in a lot of cases above this is after train lengths have recently been extended. So they're trying to rely mainly on things like car parking being very costly or restricted availability, or a base of users who don't have car access. These just won't scale. We probably need around double our current capacity on all routes before we can consider if this is viable.

Germany and Austria started from a far, far higher base with S-Bahn and Regional Bahn services that actually deliver meaningful capacity around nearly all of their populated areas, and a much more poly-centric focus on expansion over recently years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2024 ==

That doesn't reduce pollution unless there is genuine and tangible modal shift.

The only way to do this in the context of public transport is by spending many tens of billions of pounds per year on new infrastructure. That money can realistically only come from the state. It's been made abundantly clear that's not coming, at least in the next five years.

 

[signed]

The only way to do this in the context of public transport is by spending many tens of billions of pounds per year on new infrastructure.

The lobby of the car in the UK seems too powerful to do pretty much anything