Annual All-Lines Pass: could it ever work?

[30907]

I'd like a daily off peak all lines, including bus, tube ferry and tram at a reasonable price.

That would have to be set at the level of an offpeak (day) return to somewhere far away from London to avoid too much abstraction....

Something that would actually make it cheaper than driving for a couple or family.

....but that means more like £50 for a car-load (100m return plus parking).
Trying more local offpeak day tickets nationwide (instead of in slightly random areas as now) might be a more realistic aim.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I agree with the members who have recommended an off peak regional all lines pass - this could still work for the vast majority of journeys people make, without hurting intercity revenue too much (people would, of course, be able to use their tickets up to the boundary on IC journeys and then pay from then on).
I'd suggest it should be monthly and cost somewhere around £50 a month, usage restricted to after 9.30am Mon-Fri.

 

[zwk500]

Apologies if I've missed anything, especially from the OP, but what is the purpose of such a ticket? I think the pricing and validity (time and geographic) would vary considerably between a ticket aimed to produce more revenue within the railway and a ticket aimed to foster travel as a means to economic activity through leisure trips.

At the moment this ticket seems mainly to appeal to bashers.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Open-ended question really - I was talking to a friend last weekend who lives in Switzerland and he was extolling their annual pass, saying it really encourages them to minimise car usage.

Personally (as someone who works from home) I’d find a £50 per month offpeak ticket useful, both for simple journeys to the nearby city and as an alternative to car based leisure trips at weekends. But mostly I was just intrigued to find what other people would appreciate and how plausible they thought it might be.

More broadly I think it's an interesting question in the context of a nationalised railway. Does a nationalised railway have more "social purpose" than a privatised one? Would incentives like this, with potentially large social benefit, be considered more favourably by a nationalised railway? Or is GBR simply a matter of running the exact same railway to the exact same spec, just more efficiently?

 

[JonathanH]

Does a nationalised railway have more "social purpose" than a privatised one?

Even if it does, it doesn't achieve that social purpose by offering unlimited travel below the market rate. There are plenty of other ways of demonstrating social purpose.

Or is GBR simply a matter of running the exact same railway to the exact same spec, just more efficiently?

Yes. Under either approach, the ultimate point is that the Treasury is the organisation paying for the railway.

At the moment this ticket seems mainly to appeal to bashers.

Therein lies the problem. The market price would need to be based on people making a large number of journeys, not a few odd journeys a month.

 

[yorksrob]

A fifty pound per month ticket would be useful, however I'm concerned about the regional aspect. I'm based in Yorkshire however I travel quite a bit to Cumbria, Lancashire and the Peak district, so artificial boundaries would be a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2024 ==

Even if it does, it doesn't achieve that social purpose by offering unlimited travel below the market rate. There are plenty of other ways of demonstrating social purpose.

This over-commercialisation is the problem with the railway in this country.

Cost is the main driver for most passengers, so if you want to demonstrate social value, you deal with that,

 

[Bald Rick]

some of the prices quoted on this thread - for an all line pass are just ridiculous !

 

[Mcr Warrior]

some of the prices quoted on this thread - for an all line pass are just ridiculous !

Ridiculously cheap or ridiculously expensive?!

 

[JonathanH]

Ridiculously cheap or ridiculously expensive?!

Ridiculously cheap. Regional area rangers, valid only off peak for one day are pushing £30 already. To imagine you could buy something that gave you 30 of those, for a much bigger area, for £50 is frankly a nonsense. Even £500 for a month would be too cheap.

Does someone want to indicate how they would use such a ticket, and why they consider that would be a viable ticket for the railway to offer, indicating why they should be paying the railway less, for more travel.

 

[yorksrob]

Regional rangers are usually pretty useless for most journeys people actually want to make.

A lot of them are good in theory, however if one has to actually get there using the train, you're stuck with poor value for money.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ridiculously cheap. Regional area rangers, valid only off peak for one day are pushing £30 already. To imagine you could buy something that gave you 30 of those, for a much bigger area, for £50 is frankly a nonsense. Even £500 for a month would be too cheap.

Does someone want to indicate how they would use such a ticket, and why they consider that would be a viable ticket for the railway to offer, indicating why they should be paying the railway less, for more travel.

Quite. That an all lines pass - presumably available on any train - would be half the price of a one way journey from London to Edinburgh available on a semi flexible basis on a Saturday a month away, is comical.

The railway would lose scores of millions in revenue, and suffer severe overcrowding to the point that punctuality would be decimtaed and customer experience destroyed.

 

[yorksrob]

The railway would lose scores of millions in revenue, and suffer severe overcrowding to the point that punctuality would be decimtaed and customer experience destroyed.

Has this actually happenned in any of the countries that have adopted such fares ?

 

[ABB125]

Has this actually happenned in any of the countries that have adopted such fares ?

Well, Austria suffers from severe overcrowding on long-distance services in the summer...

Having said that, annual passes for reasonable prices seem to "work fine" in other countries, so why not the UK? I suspect that the very high fixed costs of British railways is probably the place to start

 

[yorksrob]

Well, Austria suffers from severe overcrowding on long-distance services in the summer...

Having said that, annual passes for reasonable prices seem to "work fine" in other countries, so why not the UK? I suspect that the very high fixed costs of British railways is probably the place to start

But from what you're saying, the sky doesn't seem to have fallen in on Austrias railway.

We would presumably have to have much higher fixed costs than the other countries with such passes, for this to be the cause. If so, someone needs to get to the bottom of why.

I vaguely recall McNulty looking at costs, but I don't recall whether he compared with other railway systems.

 

[JamesT]

But from what you're saying, the sky doesn't seem to have fallen in on Austrias railway.

We would presumably have to have much higher fixed costs than the other countries with such passes, for this to be the cause. If so, someone needs to get to the bottom of why.

I vaguely recall McNulty looking at costs, but I don't recall whether he compared with other railway systems.

Just looking at the start of the summary, he says comparisons were made with France, Netherlands, Sweden, and Switzerland. McNulty claims GB Rail costs would need to be reduced by 40% to get to their level.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has this actually happenned in any of the countries that have adopted such fares ?

See Germany.

 

[A S Leib]

For example, it may be impossible to travel from London to Edinburgh using non intercity services and even if it is possible, it would be very time consuming that only the most hardy traveller would endure.

LNR from Euston to Crewe, Northern to Carlisle via the Calder Valley and Settle, ScotRail via Dumfries and Glasgow? The last bit would probably be quicker by bus from Carlisle and, speaking of buses, what's the impact of the £2 bus fare cap been? Would it be better to offer annual bus passes valid on every currently participating route for, say, £100 / month* instead?

* Assuming outside London (hopper fare) and any equivalents, most commuters take two buses per working day and no others, working out at ~£90 per month.

 

[yorksrob]

Just looking at the start of the summary, he says comparisons were made with France, Netherlands, Sweden, and Switzerland. McNulty claims GB Rail costs would need to be reduced by 40% to get to their level.

That's a fairly big percentage. On the face of it, the types of services we run don't seem to that different to those in Germany/Austria/The Netherlands. (I don't include France because of its hollowed out regional railway).

See Germany.

I heard some anecdotal evidence on hear of overcrowding at the start of the fares reform - particularly during the 9 Euro scheme.

I've not heard anything to suggest that the 49 Euro scheme has caused long term persistent overcrowding.

It seems that whilst the powers that be have an interest in saying that the sky will fall in without a poor value fares system, this simply isn't borne out by evidence from the continent.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've not heard anything to suggest that the 49 Euro scheme has caused long term persistent overcrowding.

It seems that whilst the powers that be have an interest in saying that the sky will fall in without a poor value fares system, this simply isn't borne out by evidence from the continent.

Have you been recently? Or read the news about Db perfromance? Its gone downhill very quickly.

 

[signed]

Or read the news about Db perfromance?

Is anything of the downfall of DB performance been due to overcrowding? I don't think

 

[yorksrob]

Have you been recently? Or read the news about Db perfromance? Its gone downhill very quickly.

Oh, I've read a lot about DB's performance - however going by the very knowledgeable people on here, this problem pre-dates the introduction of the pass by a couple of years. And whilst to a limited extent related, performance in terms of punctuality is not the same as overcrowding.

This sounds more like someone deflecting from the question because there simply isn't the evidence that these fares products have caused the sort of catastrophic crowding in Europe that we get warnings of.

 

[Dr Day]

Comparison with Europe needs to reflect differences in how we typically live and where we live relative to where we work. In my experience the UK has a much stronger ‘buy the nicest house you can afford and put up with a lengthy rail commute’ culture rather than a ‘find somewhere convenient walkable or a short bus/tram/metro ride for work and be prepared to rent a decent apartment’.
Hence transport finances in much of the country are more affected by the medium/long distance heavy rail commuter, whose fares cannot be undermined without losing the railway industry even more money.

 

[yorksrob]

Comparison with Europe needs to reflect differences in how we typically live and where we live relative to where we work. In my experience the UK has a much stronger ‘buy the nicest house you can afford and put up with a lengthy rail commute’ culture rather than a ‘find somewhere convenient walkable or a short bus/tram/metro ride for work and be prepared to rent a decent apartment’.
Hence transport finances in much of the country are more affected by the medium/long distance heavy rail commuter, whose fares cannot be undermined without losing the railway industry even more money.

Is that not just a function that this country is less prepared to subsidise the railway system we need than other countries ?

People are already showing that they're more prepared to shop around for their work journeys than before the pandemic. Perhaps the country has decided that the high cost commuter model isn't what it wants (or was ever, given that the traditional season ticket always carried a hefty discount).

 

[JonathanH]

People are already showing that they're more prepared to shop around for their work journeys than before the pandemic. Perhaps the country has decided that the high cost commuter model isn't what it wants (or was ever, given that the traditional season ticket always carried a hefty discount).

There is a gigantic leap between doing something about a 'high cost commuter model' and allowing people to have complete freedom to travel around the country at will after 0930 for a peppercorn monthly cost.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Wherever it has been introduced, the pass has been a political decision.

DB didn't introduce the Deutschlandticket because they wanted to boost regional travel in some kind of turbocharged Network Card/NSE Day promo exercise. Rather, the German government mandated it after a proposal by one of the coalition partners, the Greens. The ticket was and is funded jointly by federal and state governments.

So bleating about the notion with "but the Treasury" is missing the point. If you want to argue against the railway deciding to offer a cheap ticket out of the goodness of its own heart then saying "whoops our trains are overcrowded" then fill your boots, but that's a strawman because it's not what's happened elsewhere.

The UK Government made a political decision to offer, and fund, £2 bus fares - which could also be considered an unthinkable revenue cut for many journeys. (The bus from here to the nearest town, just eight miles, is now £2 rather than £7. OMG, they're forfeiting 70% of their revenue! Funnily enough the world has not ended.)

The UK Government could equally make a political decision to offer and fund some form of public transport pass. The interesting question is not "oh but someone might commute from Berwick so it has to be £33,000". The interesting question is what sort of pass could be a worthwhile investment for a Government faced with some pretty big transport infrastructure challenges over the coming decades.

 

[yorksrob]

There is a gigantic leap between doing something about a 'high cost commuter model' and allowing people to have complete freedom to travel around the country at will after 0930 for a peppercorn monthly cost.

There may be, however there are lots of things a government could do to tackle the poor value of rail travel in this country, ranging from the comparatively cheap all off-peak Friday, via a national rail card to a gold standard freedom pass of some description.

Its notable that whilst some countries have some or all of the above innovations, the government in England seems unwilling to implement any.

Even our all-line rover, which is currently of little value to anyone other than track bashers, could be made more useful by making it a five in ten for example.

The political will needs to be there.

 

[gravitystorm]

Bahncard 100 (which the OP did not mention) : not sure - it has possibly encouraged long-distance commuting (but that is tax- deductible in DE anyway). Has it provided effective competition vs air or road - our German readers might comment?

I don't think it's long-distance commuting (home-work-home) that the Bahncard 100 is aimed at encouraging - it's replacement of the company car for people who are travelling for business. It's noticeable on DB ICE trains how many first class travellers are clearly travelling for work during the day between cities, often in groups of 2-4 having and business discussions along the way. But it makes sense if you have factories or offices in different cities, or client meetings, or conferences some other reason. In the UK we're 95% focussed on "to and from London" as the only thing that business travellers are interested in, which is a shame.

If you are (say) a mid-to-high level executive, then you really benefit from having a no-restrictions travel pass in your pocket. Meeting running over? No problem, catch the next train. Sudden meeting in Manchester? No problem. Travelling peak in the morning, off-peak during the day, not sure whether your train through Birmingham to Nottingham counts as peak in the evening by the time you get there? Who cares. You have a Bahncard 100 pass, it covers absolutely everything, and that convenience is what you're willing to pay for. And then you ditch your company car, since at most you need a 10 min taxi from the station. Much better than 3 hours stuck on the M40 again any time you venture out of the office.

The UK rail industry, based on emergent behaviour, would much rather that all these people avoid the railway network entirely. You can tell this because of the existence of massively complicated grid-based ticket selections (hint: time is money, decisions per day is a measure of fatigue) and trying to sell one ticket at 67.50 and the next service at 68.45 but it's 5 minutes slower but this other ticket is only valid on the trains with a certain colour on the bodyside, so... Decisions. Complexity. Inflexibility. Not worthwhile.

Additionally, for better or for worse, these senior business travellers also have considerable influence in the way the world works, so if they are all in their saloon cars on the motorway then we end up with more motorways. Get them on the railways, then the railways have more influential friends. Which is certainly needed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is anything of the downfall of DB performance been due to overcrowding? I don't think

There is a proven statistical link between the level of crowding on trains and their punctuality.

Oh, I've read a lot about DB's performance - however going by the very knowledgeable people on here, this problem pre-dates the introduction of the pass by a couple of years. And whilst to a limited extent related, performance in terms of punctuality is not the same as overcrowding.

This sounds more like someone deflecting from the question because there simply isn't the evidence that these fares products have caused the sort of catastrophic crowding in Europe that we get warnings of.

DB’s problems are multi-faceted, part of it is overcrowding, part of it is sweating the assets more to deal with the numbers (ie using the network more intensively, causing more wear and tear, and less time for maintenance), and part of it is they have less money due to the lower price tickets. A perfekt storm for them, which is now coming home to roost.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There is a proven statistical link between the level of crowding on trains and their punctuality.

Are we saying that it's the punctual trains that are busy? Or that it's the late trains that are even busier and are often overcrowded? Or something else?

 

[yorksrob]

DB’s problems are multi-faceted, part of it is overcrowding, part of it is sweating the assets more to deal with the numbers (ie using the network more intensively, causing more wear and tear, and less time for maintenance), and part of it is they have less money due to the lower price tickets. A perfekt storm for them, which is now coming home to roost.

If a Government does make a political choice to introduce such a product, it's imperative on them to make up any shortfall.

That said, as I mentioned in a previous post, there are a number of other, less expensive steps a government could take to make our railway better value for passengers.