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Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, the secret sealed document and his arrest

3141

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Is your assertion that most men would have sex with an underage girl on an island given the opportunity to do so?
No, and I'm surprised you suggest it might be. I didn't refer simply to "an island" but to a "private love island", which is what I think I recall Epstein had been offering. I wondered how the people now weighing in against Prince Andrew might react if they had been invited to a place providing such specialised services. I expect you could have worked that out for yourself.
 
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AlterEgo

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No, and I'm surprised you suggest it might be. I didn't refer simply to "an island" but to a "private love island", which is what I think I recall Epstein had been offering. I wondered how the people now weighing in against Prince Andrew might react if they had been invited to a place providing such specialised services. I expect you could have worked that out for yourself.
Honestly that's an unhinged way to think about people complaining about Prince Andrew's underage sex allegations. And all because you're merely bored of reading about it.
 

Tester

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No, and I'm surprised you suggest it might be. I didn't refer simply to "an island" but to a "private love island", which is what I think I recall Epstein had been offering. I wondered how the people now weighing in against Prince Andrew might react if they had been invited to a place providing such specialised services. I expect you could have worked that out for yourself.
When you're in a hole, it's best to stop digging!
 

Peter C

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You do wonder if the deal offered to him by his brother was either do as he has done, or the King would ask the Government to enact legislation to formally remove the titles. I'd also bet that Andrew is in real trouble when William becomes King - all reports suggest he is the one really pushing for him to be stripped of titles.
Yes from everything I've read and heard, William certainly has very strong feelings about (and specifically against) Andrew. The footage of William's reaction to Andrew trying to start a conversation at the late Duchess of Kent's funeral really shows the Prince of Wales doesn't appear to be interested in talking to his uncle.

I wonder if I’m the only person who’d be quite happy if there were no more news reports about Prince Andrew. Each tiny piece of news or speculation is blown up into an allegation and presented as if it’s been proved to be true. On that basis there appears to be a widespread desire for him to be reduced to plain Andy Windsor and forced to live in a woodshed somewhere in Windsor Great Park. Many items about him include a carefully-selected photo where he scowls at the camera, to remind us how much we’re supposed to dislike him.
I agree with you in as much as I would also be happy if there were no more news reports about Andrew - but I would like that to happen on account of his permanently leaving public life. He has shown himself to be incompetent at best when it comes to the sort of high positions he has held through his life thus far, both as the said-to-be-favourite son of the late Queen, and now the brother of the King.

Andrew Lownie, who has spent the past four years studying Andrew's life, describes him as a "useful idiot" without the business acumen which one might think is required for the amount of work he did during his time as trade envoy. A piece in today's Guardian also points out Andrew's "series of controverises over his close links with unsavoury dictators and businessmen":
He took a holiday with a Libyan gun smuggler, criticised a Serious Fraud Office investigation into corruption involving the arms giant BAE and lunched at Buckingham Palace with a leading member of the subsequently deposed Tunisian dictatorship.

His dealings with the elite of Kazakhstan show a flavour of what he was up to. In 2007, he sold Sunninghill, a mansion near Ascot that had been a wedding present from the queen, to the son-in-law of the autocratic president of Kazakhstan for £3m over the £12m asking price. Andrew made regular official and private trips to the country.

The media reported the contents of emails that suggested Andrew worked for Greek and Swiss firms who were bidding for large contracts in Kazakhstan in 2011. It was Andrew’s job to help introduce the firms to senior Kazakh political figures. He was to have been paid a commission of 1%, or £3.85m, for helping broker a successful deal, according to the reports.

By 2011 the stench around Andrew, then fourth in line to the throne, was too much for the government and he was forced to step down as the trade representative.

If he knew that the young woman with whom he’s alleged to have had sexual escapades was below the legal age, it’s a very serious offence. A court case might settle the matter, but in the absence of an accuser and witnesses that currently seems impossible, so there’s nothing to control speculative discussion. Perhaps that thread is where all this should be.

Most men don’t get the opportunity to visit a private love island. If they did, would all those moralising about him (1) check the girl’s age and (2) say “Oh no, then I mustn’t do this” if she was too young?

It’s hard to avoid thinking that much of the disapproval and dislike that’s being expressed is not really moral rectitude but basically envy of someone who actually had the chance to do things that are beyond most people’s reach.
I'm not convinced by this argument. I really do not think that anyone - certainly anyone who is worth listening to - who is 'moralising' about Andrew is envious of what he has done. If someone was envious of his alleged actions, I would question that person's character - especially if they were to answer your two questions in the negative. Although perhaps that might not be so surprising, if they were as arrogant as Andrew has shown himself to be. (I note he has not shown any sincere and maintained concern for the victims of these alleged crimes, or for anyone else who was harmed by Epstein's actions; and his reactions to Emily Maitlis asking questions about Virginia Guiffre in the 2019 Newsnight interview, where he scoffed and chuckled to himself, speak volumes.)

Re. 'moralising' - I really don't think people are pontificating about Andrew in the way you seem to suggest. From my reading and viewing, I have instead drawn the conclusion that they are, largely, people endeavouring to see that Andrew, a man who has shown himself to be of varying integrity (to say the least), is held to account, in much the same way as they rightly should for, say, a politician who has been involved in the financial dealings he has been involved in, or who has had such allegations made against him as Andrew has.

Did the government of the day do that though? Not specifically the King?
I suppose the one thing about the abdication crisis was that the general public didn't have to put up with the King (and then Duke of Windsor) remaining in the public eye for so many years after the first stories broke - the whole thing was over really in a matter of two weeks, if that. (Although of course those in the right high social circles had known about Edward's love for Wallis for some time before he actually left.) Andrew has shown he doesn't seem to realise quite what's being levelled against him by the fact that he keeps popping up, when really all the public want him to do is keep quiet and go away, to put it bluntly.

No, and I'm surprised you suggest it might be. I didn't refer simply to "an island" but to a "private love island", which is what I think I recall Epstein had been offering. I wondered how the people now weighing in against Prince Andrew might react if they had been invited to a place providing such specialised services. I expect you could have worked that out for yourself.
I refer back to my previous comment about questioning an individual's character. Anyone with a good, moral character would not accept such an offer, surely? Especially in the period between Epstein's two times in prison, when it had been made perfectly clear that he was a sex offender?

-Peter
 

Gloster

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I think that lot of it is that people are fed up with him and feel that he is a freeloader making use of his position to live the high life while doing as little as possible in return. Those who generally support the monarchy feel that he is an embarrassment who is ‘letting the side down’ and taking advantage of the rest of the family. Those who don’t support the royals, or have only a limited sympathy for them, feel that he is a self-indulgent ‘clown’ who is taking advantage of the rest of us.

It has been building up for a long time, but previously it had been relatively harmless behaviour, if boorish/inconsiderate/selfish/whatever-you-see-it-as, but his actions related to Epstein have tipped it into an area which is a great deal more distasteful to most people.
 
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JamesT

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I suppose the one thing about the abdication crisis was that the general public didn't have to put up with the King (and then Duke of Windsor) remaining in the public eye for so many years after the first stories broke - the whole thing was over really in a matter of two weeks, if that. (Although of course those in the right high social circles had known about Edward's love for Wallis for some time before he actually left.) Andrew has shown he doesn't seem to realise quite what's being levelled against him by the fact that he keeps popping up, when really all the public want him to do is keep quiet and go away, to put it bluntly.
The actual abdication may have been sorted within a few months, but Edward hardly disappeared from view. He was governor of the Bahamas during the war to stop him being a distraction for his Nazi views. Then later in life he was a celebrity appearing on talk shows.
By contrast, Andrew does seem to have taken a much lower profile. His appearances in the media seem mostly to be journalists going digging.
 

Peter C

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I think that lot of it is that people are fed up with him and feel that he is a freeloader making use of his position to live the high life while doing as little as possible in return. Those who generally support the monarchy feel that he is an embarrassment who is ‘letting the side down’ and taking advantage of the rest of the family. Those who don’t support the royals, or have only a limited sympathy for them, feel that he is a self-indulgent **** who is taking advantage of the rest of us. It has been building up for a long time, but previously it had been relatively harmless behaviour, if boorish/inconsiderate/selfish/whatever-you-see-it-as, but his actions related to Epstein have tipped it into an area which is a great deal more distasteful to most people.
Your post accurately sums up my views @Gloster!

The actual abdication may have been sorted within a few months, but Edward hardly disappeared from view. He was governor of the Bahamas during the war to stop him being a distraction for his Nazi views. Then later in life he was a celebrity appearing on talk shows.
By contrast, Andrew does seem to have taken a much lower profile. His appearances in the media seem mostly to be journalists going digging.
Yes that's a good point - thank you for the correction. But I suppose at least he was out of the country? I don't think Andrew leaving the UK would be a necessary thing at the moment, though.

-Peter
 

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I think that lot of it is that people are fed up with him and feel that he is a freeloader making use of his position to live the high life while doing as little as possible in return. Those who generally support the monarchy feel that he is an embarrassment who is ‘letting the side down’ and taking advantage of the rest of the family. Those who don’t support the royals, or have only a limited sympathy for them, feel that he is a self-indulgent **** who is taking advantage of the rest of us. It has been building up for a long time, but previously it had been relatively harmless behaviour, if boorish/inconsiderate/selfish/whatever-you-see-it-as, but his actions related to Epstein have tipped it into an area which is a great deal more distasteful to most people.

Yes. This.

I’m largely ambivalent about the royals - I don’t feel strongly enough to want them abolished but equally if we became a republic it wouldn’t bother me.

I have some respect for the ones who do stuff - Princess Anne seems to be the hardest working - and Charles seems to be well meaning if a little screwed up.

But Andrew is different gravy. Lazy and entitled and that’s just the tip of the iceberg
 

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I think that lot of it is that people are fed up with him and feel that he is a freeloader making use of his position to live the high life while doing as little as possible in return. Those who generally support the monarchy feel that he is an embarrassment who is ‘letting the side down’ and taking advantage of the rest of the family. Those who don’t support the royals, or have only a limited sympathy for them, feel that he is a self-indulgent **** who is taking advantage of the rest of us. It has been building up for a long time, but previously it had been relatively harmless behaviour, if boorish/inconsiderate/selfish/whatever-you-see-it-as, but his actions related to Epstein have tipped it into an area which is a great deal more distasteful to most people.
Well said
 

brad465

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I struggle to see how Andrew will remain at the lodge, especially now it turns out it was once "sex offender central", having not only hosted Epstein, but Harvey Weinstein too:


Prince Andrew hosted Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and Harvey Weinstein at Royal Lodge, the publicly-owned home where he effectively lives rent-free.
The trio visited the Windsor mansion as part of his daughter Beatrice's masked ball 18th birthday celebrations in 2006, two months after a US arrest warrant had been issued for Epstein for the sexual assault of a minor.
It had previously been reported that Epstein, Maxwell and Weinstein visited Windsor Castle for the event, but not that they had been hosted at Andrew's private home.
Andrew, who is facing increased scrutiny over his living arrangements in light of his relationship with Epstein, has not responded to a request for comment.
It is understood that Epstein, Maxwell and Weinstein visited Royal Lodge ahead of the main party, which took place in the state rooms of Windsor Castle and involved a champagne reception and banquet.
The BBC has matched the trees and patio wall in a previously published image of the trio to other pictures of Royal Lodge.
Epstein was arrested by police in Florida eight days after the event.
Asked by BBC Newsnight in 2019 why he invited Epstein to his daughter's 18th birthday two months after the US arrest warrant was issued, Andrew said: "Certainly I wasn't aware when the invitation was issued what was going on in the United States and I wasn't aware until the media picked up on it because he never said anything about it."

Andrew relinquished his titles earlier this month amid renewed scrutiny of his links with Epstein following the posthumous publication of Virginia Giuffre's memoir.

In the memoir, Ms Giuffre said she had sex with the prince on three separate occasions, including once with Epstein and "eight other young girls".

Andrew, who reached a financial settlement with Ms Giuffre in 2022, has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. In 2019, he told BBC Newsnight he did not remember meeting Ms Giuffre "at all" and that they "never had any sort of sexual contact".

Fresh questions have also been asked about how he is able to fund his lifestyle despite not being a working royal.

The revelation that he has only ever paid a token annual rent on his Windsor mansion, Royal Lodge, has intensified the questions over his living arrangements - even though he made large payments up front, including for renovations.

Buckingham Palace has not commented on whether Prince Andrew might move out of his home - or where he might go.

But BBC News understands that two other properties in the grounds of Windsor Castle, Adelaide Cottage and Frogmore Cottage, were options suggested to both Prince Andrew and his ex-wife Sarah Ferguson some months ago.
 

MP33

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The next disclosure will be, that Jimmy Savile provided the Disco at the party. They all attended.
 

GusB

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The next disclosure will be, that Jimmy Savile provided the Disco at the party. They all attended.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Savile's name crops up in the files.

I suspect that the opening of those files would result in much embarrassment in a number of countries.
 

styles

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Andrew pretty much has to be relegated from these privileges if the monarchy wants to cling on to hope of reviving public support for them.

Support for retaining a monarchy has been steadily declining for around a decade, since the Andrew allegations surfaced funnily enough. The replacement of Her Maj with old sausage fingers surely hasn't helped.

Being seen to take some form of action against Andrew might at least help stave off some of this decline. Without it, I think prominent politicians will take aim at the institution and ignite a whole new debate about becoming a republic.

It mightn't be so bad for them if Andrew wasn't so ridiculous. The interview he arranged to try and clear his name, the no-sweat claims, and meme-level Pizza Express in Woking references. He'd have been better off just going into hiding.
 

AlterEgo

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It's a shame we no longer have a large empire where we could banish him to be governor of an island. Actually, maybe islands aren't a good idea.
 

martin butler

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The best thing would be for the prince, and his family to move overseas, and just remove themselves from the public eye, if Andrew can't then I'm sure William in time will, he if anything is like his grandfather Phillip, disciplinarian, and no nonsense, I'm sure that in time the various links between Andrew, Soho house, Madame, and Harry will emerge, and William will be brutal, because in his eyes, his uncle Andrew, and his family betrayed his father, and used his own brother against him.
 

KevinBrum12

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I think William will be in charge of "the firm" sooner rather than later. Would not be surprised if there is planning going on for a "London Bridge" for Charles and an Accession/Coronation for William.

If has been claimed in the media that Andrew is persona non-grata as far as William is concerned and shall not be getting an invite to his coronation when it comes.

Life would be a lot easier if Andrew was abroad and it would have been better if Andrew had have been the the one in exile in the US rather than Prince Harry. Trouble is if Andrew sets foot anywhere on US territory now the FBI are rightly going to want to talk to him.
 

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The best thing would be for the prince, and his family to move overseas, and just remove themselves from the public eye, if Andrew can't then I'm sure William in time will, he if anything is like his grandfather Phillip, disciplinarian, and no nonsense, I'm sure that in time the various links between Andrew, Soho house, Madame, and Harry will emerge, and William will be brutal, because in his eyes, his uncle Andrew, and his family betrayed his father, and used his own brother against him.

The trouble is that if he is sent overseas the family will probably have even less opportunity to control his behaviour. Here they can hold the threat of withdrawing money and making him subject to even more public ridicule, which he doesn’t like, but abroad he is much more difficult to control. But even at the ends of the earth the wonders of modern technology mean that his every (mis-)deed is known to the world in seconds. At least at home there is the chance that they might be able to limit his behaviour as he still has something to lose. They organised these things better in the past: a bottle of whisky and a revolver with one bullet.
 

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I don't understand why the King can't just say to him "Andrew, you've got 30 days to vacate Royal Lodge. If you haven't done so after 30 days I'm sending bailiffs around to forcibly evict you". The courts all work for the King, so there isn't a court in the land that would refuse him if he requested bailiffs to be sent.
 

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I don't understand why the King can't just say to him "Andrew, you've got 30 days to vacate Royal Lodge. If you haven't done so after 30 days I'm sending bailiffs around to forcibly evict you". The courts all work for the King, so there isn't a court in the land that would refuse him if he requested bailiffs to be sent.
Because he has a lease with very strong protections from eviction.

If he's to leave, it'll have to be by mutual agreement.

The alternative will be protracted legal battles which will arguably be just as embarrassing for the King and the family more broadly.
 

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If has been claimed in the media that Andrew is persona non-grata as far as William is concerned and shall not be getting an invite to his coronation when it comes.
I suspect William is leaning on his dad to make sure that he's dealt with the errant brother before William takes the throne.
I don't understand why the King can't just say to him "Andrew, you've got 30 days to vacate Royal Lodge. If you haven't done so after 30 days I'm sending bailiffs around to forcibly evict you". The courts all work for the King, so there isn't a court in the land that would refuse him if he requested bailiffs to be sent.
Because he's not an absolute monarch and trying to use the courts to do his bidding outside of the law would be a rapid way to erode even more support from the Royal Family even if no-one would shed a tear for Andrew. Plus I reckon that a court may well refuse to issue such a warrant unless it was in fact legal, whether or not Charles is their technical boss.
 

AlterEgo

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I don't understand why the King can't just say to him "Andrew, you've got 30 days to vacate Royal Lodge. If you haven't done so after 30 days I'm sending bailiffs around to forcibly evict you". The courts all work for the King, so there isn't a court in the land that would refuse him if he requested bailiffs to be sent.
Because the King is subject to Parliament, and the courts do not work for the King, they work for the Crown, which is subtly different. They are not the King's private courts.
 

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Because the King is subject to Parliament, and the courts do not work for the King, they work for the Crown, which is subtly different. They are not the King's private courts.
If the king is subject to parliament, then why is parliament not free to debate him, his family, and their affairs, why does he have effectively a veto over any proposed legislation that might affect the royal family, why are not the affairs of the Crown Estate and the Lancaster and Cornwall Duchies fully open to parliamentary scrutiny, etc.

And if the king is the fount of all honour, then why can't he just strip Andrew of all his titles (including that of prince) on his own authority? (And as for this whole business of "not using" titles, doesn't that in fact mean that he hasn't lost them and they could therefore pass to his children? (Can you have a Duchess in her own right?).)
 

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(And as for this whole business of "not using" titles, doesn't that in fact mean that he hasn't lost them and they could therefore pass to his children? (Can you have a Duchess in her own right?).)

He has kept his titles, even though he does not use them, but I don’t think that many of them can be passed on to his children as they have been given to him on a personal basis. You can have a Duchess in her own right, but only in some very specific circumstances applying to particular titles if the original award so allowed or it was altered by the monarch: I can’t see Charles making a special change for the daughters. The title Duke of York does not pass to a daughter unless the late Queen made such a provision when granting the title to him and I think we would have heard if she had.

This a very simplified explanation.
 

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If the king is subject to parliament, then why is parliament not free to debate him, his family, and their affairs, why does he have effectively a veto over any proposed legislation that might affect the royal family, why are not the affairs of the Crown Estate and the Lancaster and Cornwall Duchies fully open to parliamentary scrutiny, etc.
Custom and practice mostly. I don't think there's any doubt that if Parliament wanted to do those things or if Charles tried to veto legislation by not granting Royal Assessent it wouldn't be the King who came out on top.
 

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Custom and practice mostly. I don't think there's any doubt that if Parliament wanted to do those things or if Charles tried to veto legislation by not granting Royal Assessent it wouldn't be the King who came out on top.
I disagree. If the King begins acting on his own power - for example, by getting a court to issue an eviction notice for Andrew - then Parliament cannot meet to discuss removing him, nor pass any anti-Monarchy legislation, without the consent of the King. No legislation can be passed without the King's signature on it. The King can also dismiss Parliament. And let us not forget that both the military and the police are sworn in loyalty to the Monarch, not to Parliament.
 

AlterEgo

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I disagree. If the King begins acting on his own power - for example, by getting a court to issue an eviction notice for Andrew - then Parliament cannot meet to discuss removing him, nor pass any anti-Monarchy legislation, without the consent of the King. No legislation can be passed without the King's signature on it. The King can also dismiss Parliament. And let us not forget that both the military and the police are sworn in loyalty to the Monarch, not to Parliament.
So you think the monarch is absolute then. Do you know of any experts in constitutional politics who would agree with what you've said?
 
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I disagree. If the King begins acting on his own power - for example, by getting a court to issue an eviction notice for Andrew - then Parliament cannot meet to discuss removing him, nor pass any anti-Monarchy legislation, without the consent of the King. No legislation can be passed without the King's signature on it. The King can also dismiss Parliament. And let us not forget that both the military and the police are sworn in loyalty to the Monarch, not to Parliament.

What the king can do in theory and what would actually happen if he tried to do it are clearly not the same thing!
 

styles

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If the king is subject to parliament, then why is parliament not free to debate him, his family, and their affairs, why does he have effectively a veto over any proposed legislation that might affect the royal family, why are not the affairs of the Crown Estate and the Lancaster and Cornwall Duchies fully open to parliamentary scrutiny, etc.

And if the king is the fount of all honour, then why can't he just strip Andrew of all his titles (including that of prince) on his own authority? (And as for this whole business of "not using" titles, doesn't that in fact mean that he hasn't lost them and they could therefore pass to his children? (Can you have a Duchess in her own right?).)
Well Parliament can discuss the Royal Family and the monarchy if they want.

In fact it's this separation from the monarchy which requires the whole Black Rod banging on the door of the House of Commons to ask to be let in theatre.

It's more that customs dictate it's not discussed. If the Commons desperately wanted to debate it, they could. Even if there was some theoretical basis for refusing such a debate on behalf of the King, there would be uproar if it were actually exercised.

Andrew is in daily discussions about moving out of the Royal Lodge. He's clearly recognised that his time is up and is cooperating to leave, albeit timescales remain vague. There's no great benefit from Starmer allowing a house debate on this issue unless he wants to take a firm anti-monarchy stance, which clearly he doesn't, nor do the Tories as main opposition party. And actually on this I agree with Starmer that Parliament has more important things to be doing than getting involved in where Andrew lives.
 

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My feeling is that Andrew is trying to drag things out as much as possible to get as many concessions as possible. He probably has a fairly good case in law for staying, but the continuing damage to his prospects if he did stay has probably sunk into the depths of even his dim and self-centred brain. He knows that he is going to have to go sometime, but probably reckons that showing his reluctance is the best way to get as much as he can before the inevitable catches up with him.
 

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