And the Thameslink winner is...

[northwichcat]

Weren't Merseyrail looking to replace their fleet around 2014, or have I imagined this?

No you haven't imagined it. The tender new stock was supposed to go out in 2008 for the 507s and 508s to be withdrawn this year. However, Serco/Abeliio delayed it a few times blaming the recession so the tender is going out three years behind, so we can expect the 507/8s to be withdrawn 3 years late.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

No you haven't imagined it. The tender new stock was supposed to go out in 2008 for the 507s and 508s to be withdrawn this year. However, Serco/Abeliio delayed it a few times blaming the recession so the tender is going out three years behind, so we can expect the 507/8s to be withdrawn 3 years late.

But I thought the procurement was being led by the PTE (Merseytravel) not the operator (Merseyrail Electrics, a JV of Serco & Abellio)?

 

[northwichcat]

But I thought the procurement was being led by the PTE (Merseytravel) not the operator (Merseyrail Electrics, a JV of Serco & Abellio)?

It requires funding from Serco & Abellio for the new stock in line with the franchise agreement. If Serco & Abellio make out they're strapped for cash due to the recession and can't fund them in the short term then the required funds aren't in place for an order of new trains.

Of course, Serco & Abellio are both profitable companies and the train manufacturers would have quoted a good price during a recession, so it was really a feeble excuse by Serco & Abellio.

 

[swt_passenger]

But I thought the procurement was being led by the PTE (Merseytravel) not the operator (Merseyrail Electrics, a JV of Serco & Abellio)?

It is. The tender seems to make it clear that the PTE will buy the fleet:

Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive ("MPTE") is currently considering its options around the replacement of its current fleet of Class 507/508 EMU Rolling Stock. Should it decide to replace the rolling stock following conclusion of its business case process it would be seeking to award a contract for the design, manufacture and supply of in the region of 150-250 third rail electric (750v) vehicles together with spare parts. In connection with the purchase of new vehicles MPTE is also interested to receive proposals relating to the final assembly, testing and commissioning of such vehicles specifically for operation on the Merseyrail Electrics network and for the provision of maintenance facilities appropriate to such vehicles, as well as funding for the purchase of such vehicles by MPTE and the provision of any infrastructure enhancements which would be necessary to facilitate the operation of the new Rolling Stock on the Merseyrail Electrics network ("the Project").

 

[Kneedown]

Have we had any since the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in the 1990s?

How about HS1?

 

[sutty]

Very bad news. Bombardier are reviewing their UK operations in light of this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-england-derbyshire-13821935

 

[WatcherZero]

Only natural after any large contract is awarded, heck they would be reviewing their UK operations if they won for the opposite reason.

 

[MCR247]

Very bad news. Bombardier are reviewing their UK operations in light of this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-england-derbyshire-13821935

Bad news if you work there, good news if you want a train delivered ontime

 

[jon0844]

And working when it does arrive.

I am sure they'll continue to make trains for the UK, wherever they're actually constructed, so this isn't really a story. Going out of business because the whole future of the company depended on this one deal would have been a story - but I am sure the company is just fine as a whole, and will still manage to make unreliable and heavily delayed trains for years to come!

However, joking aside, I do think that the 379s are very good (despite the flaws) and I think they look nicer than the trains Siemens produce - so any train based on elements of the 377/378/379 would have probably looked nicer from a customer perspective.

 

[87015]

And working when it does arrive.

I am sure they'll continue to make trains for the UK, wherever they're actually constructed, so this isn't really a story. Going out of business because the whole future of the company depended on this one deal would have been a story - but I am sure the company is just fine as a whole, and will still manage to make unreliable and heavily delayed trains for years to come!

The 350s, 360s and 380s were all late into service and at the latter two had a very poor entry to service, but people don't seem to count that. Can't say I understand all the Bombardier bashing, don't see any benefits at all if Litchurch Lane closes.

 

[Failed Unit]

The electrostar overall is a good product and in terms of reliabilty is very close to the Siemans products. I know we are talking about a new product so hopefully the track damage won't be as bad. The 380s are not exactly on time either.

We can't do protectionism like outer countries do, so we can't protect Derby, but I think the IEP was a bigger blow to that. On NR we still have the sprinter and pacer replacements but they are some years off, but as others have said a lot of tube replacements and cross-rail to come. I just hope they haven't closed Derby before then.

Saying that we will have our feast, but there will be another famine unless the PEPs get replaced. Scotrail will be looking for some more trains soon as well.

 

[Malderon]

I have to say I was dissapointed when I saw this wasnt going to Derby. Personally I prefer the Electrostars to Desiros but even setting that aside I thought the government with its rhetoric on "rebalancing" the UK economy would have nudged it towards domestic. I hope that crossrail will now go to Bombardier, I think the talk of going for the same design for both has died down. A 379 could surely work for crossrail without many tweaks?

I am an economist and we have free trade drummed into our heads from day 1 but it is difficult in a non academic sense not to argue in favour of protectionism. Don't get me wrong I am a free tradist, but I think for government contracts etc there are certain arguments to be made.

For instance, in most countries Police vehicles for instance will be natively produced. We could easily do this, Astras for general use, Transits for vans and Jags / Land Rovers for traffic. Obviously from a police forces point of view they are looking for the cheapest available, but from an overall government point of view what about the income tax of the employees making the product, or the VAT because they are bought "in the UK" (I'm actually not sure how this works with EU etc, but I suspect as a consumer if I bought a car in ireland and imported it, then the Irish government effectively gets the VAT and there is no fee for import either.

So for trains as well I wonder whether any tax benefits from production in Derby are taken into account when the Cost-Benefit is done? (You could even argue one could factor in the chance / cost of Derby workers being unemployed)

Certainly you would see from France / Germany, even America who like to claim that they are all free traders at heart a distinct lack of government type contracts going to foreign firms. Perhaps they just have more domestic firms that can fill the contracts though.

Anyway looking forward to the new trains regardless, I have to say I hope the franchises are reorganized so that Southern and the southern routes of FCC (Brighton - Bedford + any new routes heading to south coast) are merged. I would also like to see Govia win it - although I woudltn mind first too much. I think First have done a good job on FGW, but a poor job with FCC. Wheras I think Govia have done a good job on Southern and a poorer job on Southeastern. But anyway I think it would make far more sense for this to be one franchise, as I think otherwise with the increase in 'Thameslink' services, non Thameslink Southern services could be a bit marginalised.

 

[WestCoast]

I'd just like to point something out, Bombardier isn't a British company, they will go where they get orders - they have no loyalties.

When I see the headlines I always see "awarded to German firm Siemens" (or even just "The Germans" in the case of tabloids), not much is made of the fact Bombardier is Canadian and Bombardier Transportation is based in Berlin. Yes, they operate a UK factory and are investing in the country, but it doesn't make them British.

Even the BBC has referred to them as "the Derby firm":roll:.

In the UK, Siemens have been running financial services (and are a major employer) such as Premium Bonds on behalf of the UK Government for around 12 years.

It's a bit like saying Nissan are 'home-grown'.

It's a real shame that Britain doesn't have its own train manufacturer anymore, everything has to be designed and built by foreign firms.

Certainly you would see from France / Germany, even America who like to claim that they are all free traders at heart a distinct lack of government type contracts going to foreign firms. Perhaps they just have more domestic firms that can fill the contracts though.

Yes, they don't have such a great dependency on foreign firms. Having said that, in Germany, DB has ordered many trains from Bombardier (all their TALENT EMUs), plus Stadler (which is Swiss), and the US has even awarded a military aircraft order to Airbus, which is a European consortium.

 

[j0hn0]

I'd just like to point something out, Bombardier isn't a British company, they will go where they get orders - they have no loyalties.

When I see the headlines I always see "awarded to German firm Siemens" (or even just "The Germans" in the case of tabloids), not much is made of the fact Bombardier is Canadian and Bombardier Transportation is based in Berlin. Yes, they operate a UK factory and are investing in the country, but it doesn't make them British.

Even the BBC has referred to them as "the Derby firm":roll:.

In the UK, Siemens have been running financial services (and are a major employer) such as Premium Bonds on behalf of the UK Government for around 12 years.

It's a bit like saying Nissan are 'home-grown'.

It's a real shame that Britain doesn't have its own train manufacturer anymore, everything has to be designed and built by foreign firms.



Yes, they don't have such a great dependency on foreign firms. Having said that, in Germany, DB has ordered many trains from Bombardier (all their TALENT EMUs), plus Stadler (which is Swiss), and the US has even awarded a military aircraft order to Airbus, which is a European consortium.

finally somebody said it!

 

[WatcherZero]

Percentage manufactured aint that much different either, Siemens would be 40% of components manufactured in the UK with only final fit out occuring here while Bombardier would be 60% of components manufactured in the UK including bodyshells, and fit out.

Bombardier offers more jobs in assembly but less in the supply chain in the UK.

 

[starrymarkb]

US has even awarded a military aircraft order to Airbus, which is a European consortium.

The Airbus order was cancelled and reawarded to Boeing following some rather interesting policial and judical manuvering

 

[Class377/5]

Just to add something that has been said before, but on the GN side the 313/317/321/365 are to stay on the network. The whole basis of FCC is a commuter (ie peak services) so although some of these trains won't be used much off peak, they are there for peak.

We all know the 313's are going now where. The GN side gets another boost next December with the HLOS phase 2.

 

[jopsuk]

if what I've read is right, under the terms of the TL order the winner (Siemens as it will be) will not just build but will be the ROSCO?

 

[Mike395]

if what I've read is right, under the terms of the TL order the winner (Siemens as it will be) will not just build but will be the ROSCO?

That was my interpretation too (Not sure what to make of it really, there are pros and cons of the manufacturer also being the ROSCO)

 

[WatcherZero]

Same as Hitachi in the IEP contract.

 

[swt_passenger]

Same as Hitachi in the IEP contract.

You mean 'Agility Trains' - (although Hitachi are clearly the majority shareholder).

In the case of Siemens on Thameslink the 'ROSCO' is 'Cross London Trains', or XLT (a consortium consisting of finance partners Siemens Project Ventures GmbH, lnnisfree Limited and 3i Infrastructure plc...)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to add something that has been said before, but on the GN side the 313/317/321/365 are to stay on the network. The whole basis of FCC is a commuter (ie peak services) so although some of these trains won't be used much off peak, they are there for peak.

I strongly suggest that with Thameslink running 8 tph to/from the GN there simply won't be room for ALL of the current fleet - some of it is bound to be surplus to requirements, but clearly a large proportion will have to remain in service.

 

[Orange Box]

I strongly suggest that with Thameslink running 8 tph to/from the GN there simply won't be room for ALL of the current fleet - some of it is bound to be surplus to requirements, but clearly a large proportion will have to remain in service.

Some of the pages I've seen* shows all the remaining stuff out of the Cross as 365s. Quite a few sets needed for Peterborough and Cambridge line peak services, but everything else is 313s from Moorgate or Thameslink so thats 317s and 321s going spare.

* Not 100% sure what it is and what stage it has come from mind, it certainly doesn't look finalised.

 

[jon0844]

I doubt FCC would want to maintain a few 321s and 317s when they'll have quite a few new trains to look after and maintain.

I am pretty sure that by 2018, the 313s will be considered ready for replacement and maybe the line to Moorgate will be swallowed up by London Overground (personally, I think this may happen sooner than that). However, I am basing this on theory and presumptions, and a little bit of common sense, so it may all be rubbish!

 

[Aictos]

I doubt FCC would want to maintain a few 321s and 317s when they'll have quite a few new trains to look after and maintain.

I am pretty sure that by 2018, the 313s will be considered ready for replacement and maybe the line to Moorgate will be swallowed up by London Overground (personally, I think this may happen sooner than that). However, I am basing this on theory and presumptions, and a little bit of common sense, so it may all be rubbish!

If that was the case then it would be nice if LOROL took over all Metro operations within the zones be it Chiltern, South West Trains, C2C, FCC etc...however should this happen, the FCCs should turnaround at Hertford/Welwyn GC and divert alternately a slow Cambridge or Peterborough via Hertford/Welwyn GC to run Kings Cross-Finsbury Park-Welwyn GC/Hertford North-All Stations to Cambridge/Peterborough.

 

[jon0844]

I could see LO running to WGC and Hertford North, but there's absolutely no reason for FCC (or whoever takes over) not to run its own services along the line. I mean, even with a 15 minute service interval, there have to be a fair few spare paths. Stick a FCC service just ahead of the LO one at Alexandra Palace and it should be able to go along (perhaps with a stop or two) without getting stuck behind the one 15 minutes before it.

I believe I am right in thinking there are some 313s that run a semi-fast service along the Hertford Loop in peak hours too? That and the ability to take a few paths off the ECML and it sounds like the loop could really be developed and not simply forgotten about.

 

[Skimble19]

Some of the pages I've seen* shows all the remaining stuff out of the Cross as 365s. Quite a few sets needed for Peterborough and Cambridge line peak services, but everything else is 313s from Moorgate or Thameslink so thats 317s and 321s going spare.

* Not 100% sure what it is and what stage it has come from mind, it certainly doesn't look finalised.

Indeed. As said above, a large amount will need to remain in service, and with the option of 40 365's or a ragbag mix of 317s and 321s I think it's fairly obvious which will be staying.. after all, the 317s and 321s can both be sent elsewhere to increase the size of other operators fleets (317's to NXEA, 321s to NXEA or LM), the 365s on the other hand..

 

[jopsuk]

Is the (insane) plan to make the Cambridge Express (and Kings Lynn) service be run using 5 car commuter IEP trains still on?

 

[fgwrich]

Indeed. As said above, a large amount will need to remain in service, and with the option of 40 365's or a ragbag mix of 317s and 321s I think it's fairly obvious which will be staying.. after all, the 317s and 321s can both be sent elsewhere to increase the size of other operators fleets (317's to NXEA, 321s to NXEA or LM), the 365s on the other hand..

Oh i don't know...We wouldnt mind some to replace our 165/166s here on the Great Western!

 

[Skimble19]

Keep yer mits off em! Apart from length they aren't much different from your Turbo's

Is the (insane) plan to make the Cambridge Express (and Kings Lynn) service be run using 5 car commuter IEP trains still on?

I think so, although I'm not sure if it's planned for them to be operated in pairs to Cambridge then split?

 

[A0]

I doubt FCC would want to maintain a few 321s and 317s when they'll have quite a few new trains to look after and maintain.

I am pretty sure that by 2018, the 313s will be considered ready for replacement and maybe the line to Moorgate will be swallowed up by London Overground (personally, I think this may happen sooner than that). However, I am basing this on theory and presumptions, and a little bit of common sense, so it may all be rubbish!

Problem is LOROL doesn't have a remit to work outside of TFL's scope. Hertford, Letchworth and WGC are well outside TFL's scope.

Now, Watford is a bit of a special case because you have the Met lines there AND the DC lines are self-contained away from the main WCML services.

But this isn't the case for the GN inner suburban services.

The Moorgate branch is a bit of a probem, in that it is quite short and outside of Mon-Fri, doesn't attract much custom.

If there were more capacity at KX, you could divert all GN inner suburban services there from Finsbury Park - keeping them with FCC.

LOROL could takeover FP - Moorgate to run however they saw fit - perhaps consideration to re-opening the old LNER / Northern line branch to Finchley? And run services from Barnet / Edgware to Moorgate. Would probably mean some work around Finsbury Park and the line would be run as a tube line so tube stock and 4th rail electrification, but that shouldn't be insurmountable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed. As said above, a large amount will need to remain in service, and with the option of 40 365's or a ragbag mix of 317s and 321s I think it's fairly obvious which will be staying.. after all, the 317s and 321s can both be sent elsewhere to increase the size of other operators fleets (317's to NXEA, 321s to NXEA or LM), the 365s on the other hand..

321s could also head north as there are the 321/9s working in Yorkshire.

My bet would be 317s to NXEA to replace 315s - which will be "retired"

321s to Yorkshire.

LM won't want the 321s back, they're trying to standardise on Desiros.

365s - refurb (with aircon) and kept on GN.