And the Thameslink winner is...

[tbtc]

In that case the 365s are an interesting unallocated set of units

Agreed; I'm surprised I've not seen reference to them working elsewhere. If they are suitable for London - Cambridge/ Peterborough services (albeit there are faster alternatives for "end to end" journeys) then they could easily do London - Oxford.

Given that the Thames Valley electrification seems to be about wiring the main lines (and not doing the various branches like Henley/ Windsor) I think 365s may suit the move west (which would leave more 319s to be allocated to the West Midlands/ Lancashire.

If the 319s and 365s are used on newly electrified routes then the 317s and 321s could replace at least some of the older EMUs still in existence

Again, agreed. My only question with this (and it's not intended as a rhetorical one) is whether we should be looking to replace the oldest EMUs (313s/ 315s etc) or trying to replace Pacers (using these older EMUs to do so, if required).

Ideally you'd look at doing both (since neither types of trains are in great shape), but I don't know which the bigger priority would be.

 

[jrhilton]

I hope that Siemens will stick with 2+2 seating. 3+2 seating would be a really stupid idea. These trains are likely to be very full during rush hour (no matter how many carriages they have), and having 3+2 seating with a very narrow gangway would mean that people can't exit the train! A slight design flaw there! Less seats and more standing room (ie. more open space) is appropriate for these trains, since most journey times will be fairly short.

Don't blame Siemens, blame the people doing the ordering and specifying/agreeing the interior specifications. Siemens will build according to the agreed design specification, which will have been agreed by all parties, and not just them.

Forgetting interior seating arguments the Desiro family units themselves are overall very good. Class 444s spring to mind, are they still the most reliable trains in Britain as I know they won a “Golden Spanner” award last year for it?

 

[northwichcat]

My only question with this (and it's not intended as a rhetorical one) is whether we should be looking to replace the oldest EMUs (313s/ 315s etc) or trying to replace Pacers (using these older EMUs to do so, if required).

The problem will be electrifying more lines before the end of 2019. The number of engineers with experience of installing OHE will have dropped significantly in recent years so I imagine they'll be a lot of training and new engineering equipment required to get just the OHE we've already been promised up.

 

[tbtc]

The problem will be electrifying more lines before the end of 2019. The number of engineers with experience of installing OHE will have dropped significantly in recent years so I imagine they'll be a lot of training and new engineering equipment required to get just the OHE we've already been promised up.

True.

I reckon that (adding figures on the back of an envelope) you could replace all Pacers with cascaded EMUs if you wired up around 350 miles (concentrating on diesel areas with the highest frequencies, like the Cardiff Valleys and Snow Hill lines).

However, the time taken to plan/ decide/ organise, the lack of experienced crews, the number of people already needed for electrification in Thames Valley/ Lancashire... I don't think you could do it. Its a shame, and a frustration that we've waited so long to tackle these problems - when was the last proper electrification (excluding short add-ons like Stoke - Crewe or any light-rail conversion)?

 

[philjo]

At the moment the service through the core is

• 4x Bedford - Brighton
• 4x Luton/ St Albans - Wimbedon/Sutton
• 2x Kentish Town - Sevenoaks

= 10/ hour.

If the core frequency goes up to 24/ hour then there's a lot of space for GN services

• 2x Peterborough semi fast
• 2x Cambridge semi fast

...would be the natural fit. The Moorgate 313s are a fairly stand-alone service anyway, and the Cambridge "fasts" (inc Kings Lynn) are going to IEP.

This FCC won't need its 317/ 319/ 321/ 365s. Unless I'm missing something?

The GN route will still have a requirement for additional peak hour services to/from Kings cross.
the TL route obviously has no option but to go down the core so extra services on the GN route will have to terminate in kings cross. Presumably these will still use 365s & many of the outers will be running as 12 coaches.

e.g. in the current weekday peak timetable there are:
10 FCC arrivals in Kings cross 07:00 to 07:59 (1 from Kings Lynn)
14 FCC arrivals 08:00 to 08:59 (2 from Ely or Kings Lynn)

 

[northwichcat]

when was the last proper electrification (excluding short add-ons like Stoke - Crewe or any light-rail conversion)?

Have we had any since the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in the 1990s?

 

[ukrob]

Out of interest, does the Mersey Loop single tunnel require an end door in the rolling stock? If it does, I would have thought 319s would be needed there to replace the 507/508s on the Wirral Line.

Yes, they do, but why would you do that with the 319s? To start with they are too long for doubled up services.

There is a tender out for the 507 and 508 fleet replacement anyhow.

If you read it the tender is only to provide a cost comparison for the option of life extension or replacement, theres no actual commitment to an order.

Which is totally irrelevant to the point being made regarding the 319s.

 

[swt_passenger]

At the moment the service through the core is

• 4x Bedford - Brighton
• 4x Luton/ St Albans - Wimbedon/Sutton
• 2x Kentish Town - Sevenoaks

= 10/ hour.

If the core frequency goes up to 24/ hour then there's a lot of space for GN services

• 2x Peterborough semi fast
• 2x Cambridge semi fast

...would be the natural fit. The Moorgate 313s are a fairly stand-alone service anyway, and the Cambridge "fasts" (inc Kings Lynn) are going to IEP.

This FCC won't need its 317/ 319/ 321/ 365s. Unless I'm missing something?

The London and Southeast draft RUS has the GN side listed as 8 tph:

4 tph 8 car to Welwyn GC
2 tph 12 car to Cambridge
2 tph 12 car to Peterborough

with some fast IEPs as well it has to take out a big chunk of the remaining GN stock - there has to be more unknown cascades that become available, eg could any 365s end up in the SE area with their DC cousins?

 

[sprinterguy]

Realistically, eighty six class 319s are going to end up split into two smaller fleets of a similar size to match them to how many diagrams they will be working, and that’s even assuming some eight car formations on the GWML: So one fleet for the GWML to Oxford and Newbury, and one fleet to go to either the West Midlands or the North West. If the 365s were displaced from the ECML and moved to the GWML then I’m at pains to think of where the resulting spare 319s would go: I suppose making them third rail only and giving them to Southern (allowing their 313s to be withdrawn) would be a fairly practical move.

As I’ve heard nothing about displacement of 365s from Great Northern following Thameslink going live, I’m assuming that the fleet of forty are going to be retained for the longer distance GN services, as the East Coast order of IEP trains doesn’t seem to make allowance for a fleet of five car units to operate these services. Unless they’re using the bi-mode units. hock:

The 321s and 317s would be best shifted over to NXEA. It’s going to leave the strange situation that the oldest stock on the Great Northern and the oldest multiple unit stock in use today, the 313s, is going to remain in service while the newer rolling stock is replaced unless a way can be found to cascade stock to replace the 313s, which would surely have to include the restricitive Moorgate branch. Or unless an order for new trains is specified in the next (2015) Thameslink/Great Northern franchise to replace them.

One final point: If I’m wrong about the 365s and they are displaced from the Great Northern, would it be possible to convert them to third rail DC? I’m sure South Eastern wouldn’t say no to an additional forty Networkers…

 

[tbtc]

Have we had any since the Airedale and Wharfedale lines in the 1990s?

I'm struggling to think of any "proper" electrification since those lines were wired under British Rail (as part of the ECML wiring).

If this is the case then its strange to think we'll have reached twenty years between these lines opening to electrified trains and the next lines that get wired opening.

Not a great advert for privatisation.

Then again, I suppose Airdrie - Edinburgh ought to be counted.

 

[swt_passenger]

... as the East Coast order of IEP trains doesn’t seem to make allowance for a fleet of five car units to operate these services. Unless they’re using the bi-mode units. hock:

The 'east coast' order includes 10 x 5 car electric and 35 bi-mode IEPs.

According to various articles (such as informed sources) the 10 electrics are for Cambridge / Kings Lynn services...

 

[sprinterguy]

The 'east coast' order includes 10 x 5 car electric and 35 bi-mode IEPs.

According to various articles (such as informed sources) the 10 electrics are for Cambridge / Kings Lynn services...

Ah fair enough. I assumed that such a small number of units would be insufficient to operate the service.

 

[Pumbaa]

As for the contract, I am glad that Siemens have won. Bombardier fans don't worry - I think Crossrail is looking rather more certain in their direction now.

Err the opposite if anything. I don't have anything to hand right now, but I remember the Crossrail team said they wanted a pre-existing product to avoid bespoke design etc etc blah blah, in conclusion the Crossrail order will be a follow on from the TL order.

So Prost all around then!

I'm sure swt_passenger will point you all in the correct direction shortly, he's usually bang on the facts with their publications! I remember what I read but never where it was written :-x

 

[westcoaster]

From a paper brief we were given, and a chap there to answer questions, what we got from him about routes were

Peterborough- Brighton
Bedford- east grinstead
St Albans- caterham/Horsham

This could all be baloney, but we will wait and see what happens.

 

[jon0844]

I presume King's Cross will have to be able to take trains that get diverted if something goes tits up through the core? Could it cope with that, as well as being the place to divert trains when it goes tits up to Moorgate?

 

[87015]

Does 18tph off-peak through the core tally with anything published officially elsewhere? Got some bits come through but have no idea what stage (if any) they have come out of, especially as it has Kings Lynns and Cambridges down as 365s...

 

[Skimble19]

The GN route will still have a requirement for additional peak hour services to/from Kings cross.
the TL route obviously has no option but to go down the core so extra services on the GN route will have to terminate in kings cross. Presumably these will still use 365s & many of the outers will be running as 12 coaches.

e.g. in the current weekday peak timetable there are:
10 FCC arrivals in Kings cross 07:00 to 07:59 (1 from Kings Lynn)
14 FCC arrivals 08:00 to 08:59 (2 from Ely or Kings Lynn)

Not to mention FCC only (as far as I can remember / have ever seen) use 365's on 12 car services..

As I’ve heard nothing about displacement of 365s from Great Northern following Thameslink going live, I’m assuming that the fleet of forty are going to be retained for the longer distance GN services, as the East Coast order of IEP trains doesn’t seem to make allowance for a fleet of five car units to operate these services. Unless they’re using the bi-mode units. hock:

The IEP order that was announced did indeed have stock for the Cambridge / Kings Lynn trains, although it's either IEP or the TL trains that won't actually be able to run to Kings Lynn now as the power would need upgrading..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, I've just found this.. :P

and a bigger version of the earlier pic:

For some reason the sides of them are making me think 317.. no idea why though.

 

[swt_passenger]

From a paper brief we were given, and a chap there to answer questions, what we got from him about routes were

Peterborough- Brighton
Bedford- east grinstead
St Albans- caterham/Horsham

This could all be baloney, but we will wait and see what happens.

Those are quite feasible from what I've read, but they are still only a subset of the intended routes - it's almost certain Bedford - Brighton will keep its existing 4 tph as well, and you've got all the Southeastern services through Orpington and Sevenoaks etc to add to the mix.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The IEP order that was announced did indeed have stock for the Cambridge / Kings Lynn trains, although it's either IEP or the TL trains that won't actually be able to run to Kings Lynn now as the power would need upgrading..

The Thameslink programme website FAQs explains it as Thameslink no longer being able to cover Kings Lynn, because their trains are too long. If it turns out as I posted earlier, the nearest Thameslink service in that direction is the 2 tph 12 car to/from Cambridge

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...but I remember the Crossrail team said they wanted a pre-existing product to avoid bespoke design etc etc blah blah, in conclusion the Crossrail order will be a follow on from the TL order.

That was taken by many people as an indication that it would be a follow on order to something already existing, but they've never mentioned Thameslink stock as such.

A paragraph by Roger Ford in the March MR reckoned that what they really meant was that nothing in a Crossrail EMU would be brand new technology - which doesn't actually tie them to a current product after all.

"...Crossrail reiterated that it is looking for trains based on technology already developed by the worldwide rolling stock market for deployment on other railways."

That wording still provides a lot of leeway - and TfL do like to buy Bombardier anyway...

 

[Pumbaa]

That was taken by many people as an indication that it would be a follow on order to something already existing, but they've never mentioned Thameslink stock as such.

A paragraph by Roger Ford in the March MR reckoned that what they really meant was that nothing in a Crossrail EMU would be brand new technology - which doesn't actually tie them to a current product after all.

"...Crossrail reiterated that it is looking for trains based on technology already developed by the worldwide rolling stock market for deployment on other railways."

That wording still provides a lot of leeway - and TfL do like to buy Bombardier anyway...

Yes I remember that now. I thought TfL weren't running the bidding process though, part TfL funded and part Govt funded, with the TfL awarding the constructions contracts and DfT awarding the asset based contracts including stock and maintenance facilities etc?

 

[WatcherZero]

The Thameslink and Crossrail rolling stock procurement teams agreed to create a single spec and share resources to lower cost. Some people assume that means they will order the same train but thats not strictly true, the co-operation was on the procurement legwork side not the actual contract side.

 

[Anonywave]

Why do these new train concepts have sliding doors. Looking at a 378, the sliding doors take up so much room inside the train. Its not like plug doors take that much more time to close, maybe a second or so...

But surely wider doors are what is intended for these types of services (ie. so more people can board at one time).

I presume King's Cross will have to be able to take trains that get diverted if something goes tits up through the core? Could it cope with that, as well as being the place to divert trains when it goes tits up to Moorgate?

Hopefully both Moorgate and the core messing up wouldn't happen at the same time very often!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Bombardier are obviously reviewing litchurch lane. Apart from crossrail is there any other contracts for them to go at? obviousy the new EMUs for LM and Manchester scotland are going to be siemens so.... is there anything else out there or are new orders not going to come for a while now?

 

[387star]

Hopefully the dire First Capital Connect will be long gone by then...

 

[the sniper]

Bombardier are obviously reviewing litchurch lane. Apart from crossrail is there any other contracts for them to go at? obviousy the new EMUs for LM and Manchester scotland are going to be siemens so.... is there anything else out there or are new orders not going to come for a while now?

Weren't Merseyrail looking to replace their fleet around 2014, or have I imagined this?

 

[swt_passenger]

Bombardier are obviously reviewing litchurch lane. Apart from crossrail is there any other contracts for them to go at? obviousy the new EMUs for LM and Manchester scotland are going to be siemens so.... is there anything else out there or are new orders not going to come for a while now?

Bakerloo, Piccadilly, W&C and Central line replacements are all becoming due as I mentioned yesterday...

 

[the sniper]

Bakerloo, Piccadilly, W&C and Central line replacements are all becoming due as I mentioned yesterday...

And zee Germans are coming for those too... http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p651582690/h1af7b04d#h1e88cded

You'd have to hope that TfL would stick with what they know and throw Derby a bone. Siemens are seemingly ready to pick up the pieces though if Derby don't survive until then...

 

[WestCoast]

You'd have to hope that TfL would stick with what they know and throw Derby a bone. Siemens are seemingly ready to pick up the pieces though if Derby don't survive until then...

Loyalty doesn't exist in the same way it has done in the past. It's who is offering the best compromise between quality and price.

It would be wonderful to see Siemens open some form of operational centre (or even a factory) in the UK, most of Bombardier Transport is already centered on Berlin. Sadly, that probably won't happen at the current order rate, but if they start winning orders left, right and centre it may just have a chance!

 

[jon0844]

Hopefully both Moorgate and the core messing up wouldn't happen at the same time very often!

I didn't mean it would happen at the same time (although it could I suppose - and probably would!).

Hopefully the dire First Capital Connect will be long gone by then...

And what difference will it make if the new franchise is run by First, Stagecoach, DB, National Express etc?

FCC has done a good job on the GN side.. and the problems on the TL side would have surely existed for anyone trying to operate a service through building sites.

I guess that the next operator suddenly inherits a nice new network, with extended stations and a new fleet of trains and will suddenly look like angels! Seems like FCC will be blamed for all the disruption caused by loads of things that they had no control over (the delay in getting the remaining 319s, then the 377s, power upgrades and so on).

 

[WatcherZero]

Loyalty doesn't exist in the same way it has done in the past. It's who is offering the best compromise between quality and price.

It would be wonderful to see Siemens open some form of operational centre (or even a factory) in the UK, most of Bombardier Transport is already centered on Berlin. Sadly, that probably won't happen at the current order rate, but if they start winning orders left, right and centre it may just have a chance!

As part of this contract they are opening a fitting plant with a 1km test track and the space to double production. They are clearly thinking long term at future contracts.

 

[swt_passenger]

And zee Germans are coming for those too... http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p651582690/h1af7b04d#h1e88cded

What is odd about that model, and the picture of it in that Rail Engineer article I linked to in the other thread about the EVO train, is that it clearly suggests that Siemens are already officially working for TfL on this project. What I can't work out is if they are the only firm doing so, or their PR is just better...

Anyone know any more?