And the Thameslink winner is...

[87015]

There's really only one source of major criticism of Desiros - and that's a few very vocal individuals on the Portsmouth route. I don't think they should be considered typical to be honest.

The 360s are terrible for door and coupling faults, pretty much everyday there are delays and/or shortforms because they don't want to play.

Reliability of the LM ones has fallen off a cliff aswell, and they have the huge benefit of a brand new purpose built shed to play in.

 

[b0b]

Why do these new train concepts have sliding doors. Looking at a 378, the sliding doors take up so much room inside the train. Its not like plug doors take that much more time to close, maybe a second or so...

the timings in the Thameslink core are so tight I assume this is the reason
for the sliding doors, which is also the main reason for ATO.

 

[swt_passenger]

Actually the 319s are not being replaced because they are "old", but because the Thameslink spec calls for 24tph through the core area using ATO/ETCS. 319s could not be economically retrofitted so a new fleet is required.

Not to mention that the Thameslink plans need a fleet of about 1200 vehicles - that would be difficult with only the 344 vehicles in the 319 classes to play with...

 

[WatcherZero]

The 319's are 4 car but NR believes that the Chat Moss route needs 6 car trains and Bolton corridor needs 8 car trains in peak with 4-6 car trains offpeak. So I guess the 319 sets need to be reformed either taking a carriage out of the 4 car sets or adding two more in to make 6 car sets. Is this actually possible in the 319's design?

 

[swt_passenger]

Also is there anything more anyone knows about the "Class 319 units which are to be redeployed... (and) other areas yet to be confirmed".

Some of the press releases seem to have differed during the day. Villiers is now quoted as saying:

The new Thameslink fleet is expected to release existing carriages for use elsewhere on the network, particularly as further routes are electrified, for example in the north west of England and the Thames Valley commuter lines.

as always said in previous announcements...

 

[westcoaster]

The 319's are 4 car but NR believes that the Chat Moss route needs 6 car trains and Bolton corridor needs 8 car trains in peak with 4-6 car trains offpeak. So I guess the 319 sets need to be reformed either taking a carriage out of the 4 car sets or adding two more in to make 6 car sets. Is this actually possible in the 319's design?

That would only be possible with some major re-engineering , as the two centre cars carry all the gubbings one for the power system and the other the air, also the lavs are only found in the ats.

 

[lm321412]

The 319's are 4 car but NR believes that the Chat Moss route needs 6 car trains and Bolton corridor needs 8 car trains in peak with 4-6 car trains offpeak. So I guess the 319 sets need to be reformed either taking a carriage out of the 4 car sets or adding two more in to make 6 car sets. Is this actually possible in the 319's design?

There is a big possibility that London Midland's fleet of Class 323 trains will move North, with some of the Class 319s from Thameslink coming to Birmingham to operate their regional services.

This would mean that although platform work would be required in Birmingham, it would be lesser to the extent that is required in the North Western area.

& No, 319s would be very hard to reform.

 

[Aictos]

I have never liked the 319s, they look a bit austere, not a patch on the 317s for instance that were built at roughly the same time.

That's a rare view, most people weren't fans of the 317s from a design prospective when they first debuted, personally when FCC refurbished their 317s they ought to have taken a leaf out of WAGN's book and refurbished/renumbered them as 317/6s and start running them as 12 cars.

Then rather then having the ex LM 321s head to FCC, they ought to have gone to NXEA and let FCC have a number of 317/6s to balance the books.

 

[WatcherZero]

That could work from a NW viewpoint, Northern already has some 323's, if it replaced their routes with some 319's it could run double 323's on Chat Moss.

 

[northwichcat]

There's really only one source of major criticism of Desiros - and that's a few very vocal individuals on the Portsmouth route. I don't think they should be considered typical to be honest.

You're forgetting that the 185s and 350s are also Desiros that get complaints from passengers. Although, as most of the complaints are from people in the West Midlands and North of England the complaints don't make the newspapers and national TV news, like passenger complaints with SWT, FGW, FCC etc. do.

People complain about 350/2s appearing on Crewe-London and Liverpool-Birmingham. I imagine people doing Crewe-London on any 350 aren't that impressed but they don't complain much about a 350/1 because they know they've paid a lot less for a LM only ticket over the any permitted ticket.

The 185s get a lot of criticism from people travelling end to end or near end to end TPE journeys. Although, complaints from South TPE passengers about comfort seem rare. Possibly that could be down to no-one making regular journeys between Manchester/Man Airport and Cleethorphes - which could well be the case

 

[tbtc]

Off-peak TransPennine Express services need 4 carriages a lot more than the London Midland 350 operated routes do. At peak times it should be 6 carriages minimum on TPE for current demand - with projected demand in 5 years time it'll need to be 8-10 carriages.

The biggest problem is Leeds - Manchester, which is where six coach trains should be used as soon as possible.

Logically you'd take the dozen/fifteen 185s freed up by the electrification from Manchester to Blackpool/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh routes and cascade them to the Leeds route (with portion working ensuring the longest trains on the busiest core section).

However, some people want these scarce DMUs to be moved to a new Windermere - Manchester route instead (mainly under the wires)...

 

[WatcherZero]

185's are very good units from personal experience, being used for lengthy journeys isnt a fault with the unit itself.

 

[northwichcat]

Also is there anything more anyone knows about the "Class 319 units which are to be redeployed... (and) other areas yet to be confirmed".

Most rail franchises will end before any cascade can be made from Thameslink. This means exact arrangements for the cascade will be made with the future operators.

The original electrification announcement did say cascaded units from Thameslink will directly go to the North West and Thames Valley. When the Coalition did a spending review and issued a new document it was revised to say the Thameslink units will be returned to the relevant leasing companies and went on to say due to extra EMUs being available through the Thameslink order there will be EMUs available to lease for the newly electrified lines.

 

[tbtc]

185's are very good units from personal experience, being used for lengthy journeys isnt a fault with the unit itself.

Agreed; if they had an extra coach they'd be pretty ideal trains (apart from Scottish journeys, I suppose, although they're still pretty decent on them)

 

[northwichcat]

However, some people want these scarce DMUs to be moved to a new Windermere - Manchester route instead (mainly under the wires)...

The order of electrification is:
Manchester to Newton-le-Willows (for around 2013)
Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool (for around 2015)
Deansgate-Bolton-Leyland (for around 2017)
Preston-Blackpool North (for around 2018)

Therefore between around 2013 and 2018 it's a choice of reinstating the 2 hourly Windermere service in it's old path to plug the gap left by the diversion of the Scottish services or running a Manchester-Preston shuttle every 2 hours alongside the current Windermere shuttles. Does a through service not make more sense than two shuttles using stock with catering and FC facilities?

185's are very good units from personal experience, being used for lengthy journeys isnt a fault with the unit itself.

It's not really the build and running of the train people complain about (apart from some comments on the engines being noisy when they fire up) but the interiors - mainly the type of seating being a bit too firm and a lack of interior partitions between the external doors and the seating areas. However, those complaints aren't really something that should bother Thameslink passengers.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

The 319's are 4 car but NR believes that the Chat Moss route needs 6 car trains and Bolton corridor needs 8 car trains in peak with 4-6 car trains offpeak. So I guess the 319 sets need to be reformed either taking a carriage out of the 4 car sets or adding two more in to make 6 car sets. Is this actually possible in the 319's design?

In a word, no. Only one panto/motor car in a 4-car unit, with insufficient guts to provide reasonable performance as a 6-car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most rail franchises will end before any cascade can be made from Thameslink. This means exact arrangements for the cascade will be made with the future operators.

The original electrification announcement did say cascaded units from Thameslink will directly go to the North West and Thames Valley. When the Coalition did a spending review and issued a new document it was revised to say the Thameslink units will be returned to the relevant leasing companies and went on to say due to extra EMUs being available through the Thameslink order there will be EMUs available to lease for the newly electrified lines.

A subtle, but crucially important point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The order of electrification is:
Manchester to Newton-le-Willows (for around 2013)
Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool (for around 2015)
Deansgate-Bolton-Leyland (for around 2017)
Preston-Blackpool North (for around 2018)

At the risk of sounding like an electrification killjoy, is there any point in electrifying Manchester - Newton-le-Willows as early as this? The 319s (or any alternative EMUs) could not be available by then and if DfT ever gets round to sanctioning EMUs to run Manchester - Scotland services in lieu of FTPE 185s, they won't be ready either.

 

[ukrob]

The order of electrification is:
Manchester to Newton-le-Willows (for around 2013)
Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool (for around 2015)
Deansgate-Bolton-Leyland (for around 2017)
Preston-Blackpool North (for around 2018)

At the risk of sounding like an electrification killjoy, is there any point in electrifying Manchester - Newton-le-Willows as early as this? The 319s (or any alternative EMUs) could not be available by then and if DfT ever gets round to sanctioning EMUs to run Manchester - Scotland services in lieu of FTPE 185s, they won't be ready either.

You have to start somewhere. What advantages would there be starting somewhere else instead? Work on the ground has already started with bridge alterations. As you know, wires don't appear overnight

 

[swt_passenger]

First come first served I reckon.

The 319s aren't going to be dished out unless there's wires up - so doing anything in the NW significantly earlier than on the GW should mean that's where the 319s go first...

 

[A0]

Why are the new trains going to the south east while us oop north get the cast-off stuff they'll replace? Why not let us have the new stock and Thameslink keep their current trains? Or they can have our vast fleet of nodding donkeys if they like - let them see how the other half have to live!

Naturally you were saying these things when the DMU fleet in the north was updated in the 80s and 90s with new Sprinters?

And how about the electrification in the Leeds area which resulted in the Cl333s?

At that time in the south you had:

Cl 117 DMUs in use on GW Mainline
Slam door stock on the southern most of which dated from the 1960s
Thumpers on the southern (which dated from the 1950s)

And whilst you're looking, take a look at the Met - the A60 / A62s are only now being withdrawn after nearly 50 years service.

The Piccadilly line is using 1973 stock - nearly 40 years old.

Far older than anything seen in the North.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

You have to start somewhere. What advantages would there be starting somewhere else instead? Work on the ground has already started with bridge alterations. As you know, wires don't appear overnight

Neither do new trains, so it's lucky that we now appear to be getting on with both.

 

[WatcherZero]

Manchester-Scotland trains would be a small off the shelf build so not the lengthy negotiation of buying 1200 units at once or the delay in building and testing a new prototype vehicle. As long as the orders placed this year (or at least 3 month ITT is issued this year) they should be ready for the start of 2014. The danger is if Dft decide to give the responsibility for procurement to next TPE/Northern franchise winner or shift responsibility to Virgin replacement or XC in which case they may not be ordered till mid next year at the earliest.

 

[NXEA!]

I don't know why everyone is so down on the 319's, I used to love bashing them between East Croydon and Gatwick Airport, sitting in the motor-car, windows open, whipping along at speed.

They sure made 90mph+ seem really fast and raw.

Give them a chance.

Under the knitting, when you get a service non-stop from St Pancras to St Albans, they are complete and utter monsters, they have got to have the loudest traction motors on any EMU, and on the MML where its 100+, and the traction motors are screaming, it feels like you're going about 125. Like b0b said, give them a chance, they really are great units.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Under the knitting, when you get a service non-stop from St Pancras to St Albans, they are complete and utter monsters, they have got to have the loudest traction motors on any EMU, and on the MML where its 100+, and the traction motors are screaming, it feels like you're going about 125. Like b0b said, give them a chance, they really are great units.

I'm sure commuters in the North West will be thrilled with this news.

 

[NXEA!]

How much of the Thameslink franchise's stock is being replaced in this order?

With the talk of what FGW passengers will think going "down" from Turbos to 319s, it strikes me that that cascade isn't confirmed. Are the 365s leaving TL? If so could they go to GW (seems to be about the same number of carriages - given there'll still be unelectrified branches still an increase).

Also is there anything more anyone knows about the "Class 319 units which are to be redeployed... (and) other areas yet to be confirmed".

By my reckoning, most FCC units will be released. The 86 319's, and the 23 377's are the most obvious units that become available, but also as Thameslink will swallow up most services on the GN side, and the Cambridge and Kings Lynn fasts are going over to IEP, that's most GN units released, with the exception of the 313's. Personally what I would do, is send the 365's to FGW, and move the 321's to NXEA, with FCC keeping the 317's as I'm sure there may one or two peak time extras starting at/going to Kings Cross. There could be say 10 in use a day, two 12 car formations, and 2 8 car formations, and 2 spare. The 319's by now not having to go to FGW, could all go up North, which could kickstart a rolling programme of electrification.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure commuters in the North West will be thrilled with this news.

No need for the sarcasm, I was just advocating how I like them. But to commuters in the North West, under the 'Adonis plans' they're going to receive a radical refurbishment, so they will be thrilled to receive electric trains to a very decent standard.

 

[starrymarkb]

There's really only one source of major criticism of Desiros - and that's a few very vocal individuals on the Portsmouth route. I don't think they should be considered typical to be honest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You get dual voltage capability thrown in free anyway with any modern AC EMU - it's how the power electronics work...

What you wouldn't need is DC pick up shoes.

A bit like if you buy a single/dual voltage TRAXX you get a Quad Voltage, minus extra pantographs and software locking out the voltages you haven't paid for. (rather like a Dell PC has the highest spec processer, then is software throttled as it's cheaper to buy the Top of Range in bulk then individual processors for each model)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

By my reckoning, most FCC units will be released. The 86 319's, and the 23 377's are the most obvious units that become available

I thought the 377/5s would be going to Southern when the new Thameslink stock is delivered?

 

[RichmondCommu]

By my reckoning, most FCC units will be released. The 86 319's, and the 23 377's are the most obvious units that become available, but also as Thameslink will swallow up most services on the GN side, and the Cambridge and Kings Lynn fasts are going over to IEP, that's most GN units released, with the exception of the 313's. Personally what I would do, is send the 365's to FGW, and move the 321's to NXEA, with FCC keeping the 317's as I'm sure there may one or two peak time extras starting at/going to Kings Cross. There could be say 10 in use a day, two 12 car formations, and 2 8 car formations, and 2 spare. The 319's by now not having to go to FGW, could all go up North, which could kickstart a rolling programme of electrification.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No need for the sarcasm, I was just advocating how I like them. But to commuters in the North West, under the 'Adonis plans' they're going to receive a radical refurbishment, so they will be thrilled to receive electric trains to a very decent standard.

Does this refurbishment include new traction motors? There are already plenty of noisy trains in the North West and i don't think they want anymore!

 

[Blindtraveler]

o de
ar! More of what the uk's good at rite now - awarding work oversees, uncumfortable seats and, hang on, did someone say delivered on time with minimal issues? *cough 380s cough*. perrsonal views only

 

[Peter Mugridge]

A sign of things to come..

Courtesy of railway gazette:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...ats-bombardier-to-thameslink-train-order.html

From looking at that picture, may I propose the nickname "Draculas" for these?

They look fine apart from the buffer area design which, quite frankly, immediately brought "fangs" to mind...

 

[NXEA!]

I thought the 377/5s would be going to Southern when the new Thameslink stock is delivered?

Yes they are, sorry if I confused you, that was really poor wording on my part there.