And the Thameslink winner is...

[jon0844]

I presume the new TL stock will be able to couple up with the 377s, so that they can assist each other on the bits of shared lines?

That would also be quite important if, after all the work on the TL franchise, the Government opts to join it up with a super-franchise that includes Southern! Then the network would be about to grow even bigger quite quickly (although for convenience, I guess most routes would run as they currently do).

 

[Skimble19]

I must admit I haven't seen anywhere that these will actually use Dellners..

 

[Aictos]

There are such things as Emergency Couplings so the new TL stock and the 377s don't have to share a native coupling system but it helps.

This is why Class 66s can rescue a Class 319 in the TL Core if need be or a Class 67 can rescue a Class 365 in the Kings Cross area - both examples have happened in real life.

 

[Class377/5]

Main problem is, when the new Thameslink stock comes in 377s will still be there, creating yet more incompatible stock...

I think your forgetting that the 377/5 are incompatible with the other 377's due to different software. They could be used in an emegency to couple up but they'd only do it if it was really bad.

I presume the new TL stock will be able to couple up with the 377s, so that they can assist each other on the bits of shared lines?

That would also be quite important if, after all the work on the TL franchise, the Government opts to join it up with a super-franchise that includes Southern! Then the network would be about to grow even bigger quite quickly (although for convenience, I guess most routes would run as they currently do).

The idea is that Southern and Southeastern get merged rather than Thameslink. Could be interesting to see a 4 car 377 try and rescue a 12 car TL Desiro! Im sure there will be a plan before the units go live.

 

[Skimble19]

I think your forgetting that the 377/5 are incompatible with the other 377's due to different software. They could be used in an emegency to couple up but they'd only do it if it was really bad.

I've never heard that before.. would be incredibly odd if they were incompatible considering they were ordered by Southern for Southern - the only other user of 377s! So, without wishing to be rude.. you're talking rubbish.

 

[MCR247]

I think your forgetting that the 377/5 are incompatible with the other 377's due to different software. They could be used in an emegency to couple up but they'd only do it if it was really bad.

Where the hell did you get that from?!

What a load of crap!

Unless

that
that
that
that
and that

were all "emergencies"

:roll:

 

[kevinjowen]

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[Class377]

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We've gone over this before...there is only a slight reduction in British jobs?

 

[Nym]

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Considering the manufature and assembly of these units only takes place over 3 or so years, but the maintenance is over the next 50 years, and these will be british jobs.

You find me anything that has widespead use and is entirely made in Britain, end to end, not coming over in boxes from Japan or Germany and being nailed together over here.

by the way, I can think of one company that uses at least 80% british parts and labour in their major international product, and if you can name it, you get a prize

Theres also a large multinational company that values british labour for the manufacture of some pretty essential parts of it's production, again, name them, gain a prize.

 

[Aictos]

With reference to the discussion on Class 377/5s not being compatible with other Class 377s, on the 14th February 2009 there was a 4 car FCC 377 coupled up to a pair of 4 car Southern 377s for trials.

I know full well that when the 377/5s were being introduced that they were paired up with Class 377/2s in passenger service on the Bedford to Brighton route as I observed this a number of times when passing though the Core, in fact I can recall when I went for a day out in 2009 my train to Brighton had a Southern Class 377/2 leading with the FCC Class 377/5 trailing.

 

[jopsuk]

Theres also a large multinational company that values british labour for the manufacture of some pretty essential parts of it's production, again, name them, gain a prize.

Is this one Airbus? All passenger jet wings made at Broughton (the A400M wings are built at Filton), plus various UK companies that supply other parts (for instance, Rolls Royce), but then Airbus having a big UK base is part of the politics involved in the company.

 

[Fincra5]

I think your forgetting that the 377/5 are incompatible with the other 377's due to different software. They could be used in an emegency to couple up but they'd only do it if it was really bad.

There is no chance that is true. Why would Southern order a subclass that isn't compatible with any of the other Subclasses?

 

[YorkshireBear]

We've gone over this before...there is only a slight reduction in British jobs?

Well it depends how you consider the supply chains for litchurch lane as they will also go.... (in part anyway)

 

[swt_passenger]

The idea is that Southern and Southeastern get merged rather than Thameslink. Could be interesting to see a 4 car 377 try and rescue a 12 car TL Desiro! Im sure there will be a plan before the units go live.

In the McNulty report, the idea as proposed is definitely that SN and FCC/Thameslink get merged.

I reckon he's forgotten that SN and SE both contribute routes to Thameslink and what seems to make most sense is for the remainder of the SN and SE franchise areas (after removal of both their respective 'transferred to Thameslink' routes) to be combined...

 

[class377man]

With reference to the discussion on Class 377/5s not being compatible with other Class 377s, on the 14th February 2009 there was a 4 car FCC 377 coupled up to a pair of 4 car Southern 377s for trials.

I know full well that when the 377/5s were being introduced that they were paired up with Class 377/2s in passenger service on the Bedford to Brighton route as I observed this a number of times when passing though the Core, in fact I can recall when I went for a day out in 2009 my train to Brighton had a Southern Class 377/2 leading with the FCC Class 377/5 trailing.

They ran coupled to 377/1s in third rail mileage accumulation as well.

They're fully compatible, and given they'll be joining SN eventually, why wouldn't they be?

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps the vinyls aren't interchangeable?

 

[Nym]

Is this one Airbus? All passenger jet wings made at Broughton (the A400M wings are built at Filton), plus various UK companies that supply other parts (for instance, Rolls Royce), but then Airbus having a big UK base is part of the politics involved in the company.

Give that man a buscuit, yes, it is Airbus... or EADS

 

[the sniper]

by the way, I can think of one company that uses at least 80% british parts and labour in their major international product, and if you can name it, you get a prize

I'm not sure, but I can't help thinking of the Jaguar Land Rover Group. So, I'll have a punt on the Range Rover?

 

[tbtc]

Give that man a buscuit, yes, it is Airbus... or EADS

The only reason Airbus uses so much UK labour is that successive Governments have spent/wasted billions on "protecting British jobs" by ensuring that they get contracts, not necessarily because they are the best/cheapest at what they do.

 

[jopsuk]

Indeed, EADS is a political construct in reality, not a properly commercial one, designed to protect the interest of the UK, Germany, France and Spain.

 

[Nym]

I'm not sure, but I can't help thinking of the Jaguar Land Rover Group. So, I'll have a punt on the Range Rover?

Hmmm, forgot about JLR, they do make a lot of their own engines now aswell as buying from ford. But all the vehicles are entirely british made now. Although I was thinking of Rolls Royce Aero Engines...

Thinking about it, the only reminant of Ford or BMW ownership at JLR is some of the switchgear in the defender and disco. And some of the engines.

Freelander uses PSA engines
Defender uses ford Duratorq
Disco and RR Sport use a mix of Ford and BMW
and the RR uses either a Ford Diesel or JLR V8

Dunno as much about the Jag range, but the V8 is the same, welsh one.

 

[thelem]

When the 377/5s were running with 377/2s they needed to be rebooted at the terminus - maybe this is the incompatibility referred to? Even if there is a software compatibility problem, it would presumably be relatively easy to get the software patched to avoid the problem.

 

[Class377/5]

I've never heard that before.. would be incredibly odd if they were incompatible considering they were ordered by Southern for Southern - the only other user of 377s! So, without wishing to be rude.. you're talking rubbish.

Where the hell did you get that from?!

What a load of crap!

Unless

that
that
that
that
and that

were all "emergencies"

:roll:

Why talk when you can insult huh? I suppose you guys work with them like some of us or do you just like the trains? I am the former so I know what I'm talking about.

With reference to the discussion on Class 377/5s not being compatible with other Class 377s, on the 14th February 2009 there was a 4 car FCC 377 coupled up to a pair of 4 car Southern 377s for trials.

I know full well that when the 377/5s were being introduced that they were paired up with Class 377/2s in passenger service on the Bedford to Brighton route as I observed this a number of times when passing though the Core, in fact I can recall when I went for a day out in 2009 my train to Brighton had a Southern Class 377/2 leading with the FCC Class 377/5 trailing.

There is no chance that is true. Why would Southern order a subclass that isn't compatible with any of the other Subclasses?

They ran coupled to 377/1s in third rail mileage accumulation as well.

They're fully compatible, and given they'll be joining SN eventually, why wouldn't they be?

When the 377/5s were running with 377/2s they needed to be rebooted at the terminus - maybe this is the incompatibility referred to? Even if there is a software compatibility problem, it would presumably be relatively easy to get the software patched to avoid the problem.

Right let me explain because you guys seem to think they I believe they cannot ever work together. The 377/5 are originally ordered were and can be compatable with all the other 377's. What changes this is the fact the software installed on the trains mean they don't work correctly.

Ever wondered why FCC trains don't state coach x of y like Southern's do? Its a software thing. It takes a few hours to change over the software by changing the chips on the unit. thelem is on the right lines but its a physical thing needed rather than just a reboot thing.

On a day to date basis you shouldn't couple a 377/5 to a Southern 377 because the software isn't fully compatable.

In the McNulty report, the idea as proposed is definitely that SN and FCC/Thameslink get merged.

I reckon he's forgotten that SN and SE both contribute routes to Thameslink and what seems to make most sense is for the remainder of the SN and SE franchise areas (after removal of both their respective 'transferred to Thameslink' routes) to be combined...

To be honest I still have to read through so wasn't up on that. Yeah it does make sense to combine the pair and keep Thameslink on its own as it spans different areas.

 

[Skimble19]

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No. We've been over this already.. if Bombardier choose to close or part-close the works then more fool them, there's plenty of orders going to be coming up over the next few years. Perhaps what you should actually blog for is for Bombardier to come up with a product and price worth ordering? As for the "12000" other jobs at risk, that number seems to change every place it's mentioned..

 

[ainsworth74]

As for the "12000" other jobs at risk, that number seems to change every place it's mentioned..

Indeed the first reports I heard had it at a few thousand now the latest I've heard is twenty thousand!

 

[Nym]

I think it will be like Ryanair when they pulled out of MAN/EGCC (Except the DUB route) they quoted all the staff of every contractor the use at MAN

 

[MCR247]

please please read and support this blog http://kevinjowen-madeinbritain.blogspot.com/ thanks

What a load of bu11

 

[A0]

Hmmm, forgot about JLR, they do make a lot of their own engines now aswell as buying from ford. But all the vehicles are entirely british made now. Although I was thinking of Rolls Royce Aero Engines...

Thinking about it, the only reminant of Ford or BMW ownership at JLR is some of the switchgear in the defender and disco. And some of the engines.

Freelander uses PSA engines
Defender uses ford Duratorq
Disco and RR Sport use a mix of Ford and BMW
and the RR uses either a Ford Diesel or JLR V8

Dunno as much about the Jag range, but the V8 is the same, welsh one.

I'd suggest Toyota's Avensis and Auris.

Both are built at Burnaston in Derbyshire, the engines are built at Toyota's Deeside plant. And it was announced last week that they are going to be exporting the Avensis to Japan..... (Which is very good news for exports).

Both Nissan and Honda also rely on alot of locally produced components (to make their "Just in time" manufacturing processes work).

Also, what about JCB in Staffs? Or Westland Helicopters ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'd suggest Toyota's Avensis and Auris.

Both are built at Burnaston in Derbyshire, the engines are built at Toyota's Deeside plant. And it was announced last week that they are going to be exporting the Avensis to Japan..... (Which is very good news for exports).

Both Nissan and Honda also rely on alot of locally produced components (to make their "Just in time" manufacturing processes work).

Also, what about JCB in Staffs? Or Westland Helicopters ?

I would also suggest the nuclear submarines that are built in Barrow In Furness.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No. We've been over this already.. if Bombardier choose to close or part-close the works then more fool them, there's plenty of orders going to be coming up over the next few years. Perhaps what you should actually blog for is for Bombardier to come up with a product and price worth ordering? As for the "12000" other jobs at risk, that number seems to change every place it's mentioned..

I think the key words here are "the next few years". Its not economicaly viable to keep a manufacturing plant open if there is no work! Would you care to list these orders and when they are likely to be placed?

Please don't be fooled by the numbers of jobs that will supposedly be created in the UK by awarding the contract to Siemens. It will be nothing like the figures that have been quoted.

 

[cj_1985]

I would also suggest the nuclear submarines that are built in Barrow In Furness.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think the key words here are "the next few years". Its not economicaly viable to keep a manufacturing plant open if there is no work! Would you care to list these orders and when they are likely to be placed?

Please don't be fooled by the numbers of jobs that will supposedly be created in the UK by awarding the contract to Siemens. It will be nothing like the figures that have been quoted.

would you be willing to sit at home not working and not getting paid to work (or claiming off the dole) because maybe in 3 years time there will be a job for you?

its no different... bombardier could in theory take a hit and keep a good chunk of the staff at derby etc employed... but there is no guarantee that when the crossrail fleet order comes up for grabs, that bombardier will win the contract... or that when the MerseyRail replacement fleet comes up for offer.. that bombardier will win it.

iirc have seen mentioned by someone (i think it was snapper) that from what they had heard that the Bombardier bid was lower £££...
but even with that if the bid/offer isnt practicle/possible etc or the quality isnt to the same standard then that could be why bombardiers bid was rejected...

likewise as has been mentioned on here already.. the thameslink fleet contract also included the depots contruction and/or management.. something that (again as has been stated on here) bombardier dont have experience in here in the uk... they work in other operators depots to mainatin their products... or they operate derby, crewe, illford and previously chart leacon (i think its mothballed)
where as siemens operate several purpose built depots... for TPEx, SWT, LM, HEx? etc


the one thing i will say... and im not sure if it has already been said.. but i have not seen any press releases or suggestions that bombardier are trying to strongarm DfT etc into changing their mind... they have been public in saying they would review their UK operations... but thats not the same as going begging for some sort of scraps.
and considering that DfT have rejected Bonbardier for Thameslink and the bombardier/siemens joint offer for IEP.. im surprised that they havent kicked off about one or both... but i think all we can do is wait till they make the formal announcement... so then we will know how bad the UK operation is going to be cut