Anarchy in Calais

[Tetchytyke]

Of course not, that's why I suggested these unseaworthy wrecks should be destroyed and the people traffickers put out of business

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Least of all the Italian navy, who've been trying to do just that for the last 20 years. Britain, ever the helpful souls, pulled the funding to help them last month.

But meanwhile, away from Planet Fluffy and back on Planet Earth, the people traffickers are in business and the desperate people from Eritrea, Somalia, Libya and Syria are fleeing their wars in unseaworthy vessels.

So I'll ask you (and the others) again: what should we do with them? Send them all back to Italy because they're not our problem? Leave them to drown in the Med? Something else? I'm all ears.

That's 2 questions you've asked that you haven't answered.

That's because I'm asking you what you what you think we should do with them.

Interesting how you're not answering, isn't it.

being employed on the black or grey market means you are off the system so are able to claim certain benefits whilst working.

Asylum seekers are not entitled to welfare benefits, despite what the non-dom Viscount Rothermere would have you believe. They do receive some money- an amount which is significantly lower than the benefit amount- to allow them to avoid destitution, but that is it. It is not a benefit and not all the help is in cash; much of it is in food vouchers.

The attraction of the UK is not the benefits system, which is more punitive than in many other countries. The attraction is that we do not have ID cards, which makes it easier to find work in the grey market.

 

[Johnuk123]

The attraction of the UK is not the benefits system, which is more punitive than in many other countries. The attraction is that we do not have ID cards, which makes it easier to find work in the grey market.

This is what the Grey Market is :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market

Nothing whatsoever to do with what you're talking about.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Surely France isn't that bad?

You're the one talking about destroying boats. I'm not just talking about the issue in France.
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This is what the Grey Market is :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market

Nothing whatsoever to do with what you're talking about.

If weren't trying to be completely disingenuous and refusing to engage, you would have seen the link to the Informal Sector on that page, which was titled the Grey economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector

"The informal sector, informal economy, or grey economy..."

Don't let that stop you believing everything written in whichever paper is telling you all this stuff though.

 

[Johnuk123]

You're the one talking about destroying boats. I'm not just talking about the issue in France.
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If weren't trying to be completely disingenuous and refusing to engage, you would have seen the link to the Informal Sector on that page, which was titled the Grey economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector

"The informal sector, informal economy, or grey economy..."

Don't let that stop you believing everything written in whichever paper is telling you all this stuff though.

Talking about refusing to engage are you going to carry on playing footsie under the table or are you going to reveal this mysterious word you are thinking about.

Go on tell us.

 

[meridian2]

So I'll ask you (and the others) again: what should we do with them? Send them all back to Italy because they're not our problem? Leave them to drown in the Med? Something else? I'm all ears.



.

I've outlined why there is free migration; not my fault if you're selectively answering what you want to listen to and dismissing everything else as 'blithering'.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Talking about refusing to engage are you going to carry on playing footsie under the table or are you going to reveal this mysterious word you are thinking about.

Go on tell us.

Someone judging others based on where he perceives them to have come from? He's not exactly provided evidence they're migrants now, has he.

I think you know perfectly well what word it is. But it's nice to see that you're just trying to make jabs at me when you're caught out looking a bit stupid, rather than actually explaining how Arctic Troll is wrong.

 

[Johnuk123]

Someone judging others based on where he perceives them to have come from? He's not exactly provided evidence they're migrants now, has he.

I think you know perfectly well what word it is. But it's nice to see that you're just trying to make jabs at me when you're caught out looking a bit stupid, rather than actually explaining how Arctic Troll is wrong.

You're just a big tease you are.

 

[Metrailway]

being employed on the black or grey market means you are off the system so are able to claim certain benefits whilst working.

Asylum seekers are not entitled to welfare benefits, despite what the non-dom Viscount Rothermere would have you believe. They do receive some money- an amount which is significantly lower than the benefit amount- to allow them to avoid destitution, but that is it. It is not a benefit and not all the help is in cash; much of it is in food vouchers.

The attraction of the UK is not the benefits system, which is more punitive than in many other countries. The attraction is that we do not have ID cards, which makes it easier to find work in the grey market.

Firstly, I do not read the Daily Mail. So Rothermere is unable to make me believe anything. Although I certainly do not agree with his non-dom status, his tax residency is superfluous to this thread. I presume you know the Lord well as clearly you know a lot about him and keep bringing him up. Maybe you could persuade him to change his tax status.

Secondly, asylum seekers (assuming they are destitute on entry) are entitled to cash support which is around 60-70% of JSA. This is in cash not vouchers and they receive this money from the Post Office via their ARC card. As far as I know, only migrants who have had their asylum claim rejected get food vouchers.

Asylum seekers are not given housing benefit because they are given housing free (although they have no choice where they are housed.). They also do not need to pay any utility bills.

Asylum seekers also get free healthcare in the UK which is unlike much of Europe, where you need to pay to see a doctor. The UK is highly unusual in Europe to have a free at the point of use NHS. Changing this will be political suicide.

If asylum is granted, obviously they are no longer asylum seekers and are able to claim the mainstream benefits and are allowed to work.

You are right to state that the lack of ID cards is a pull factor. The UK is one of the few states in Europe without an ID card system. Introducing this will also be political suicide.

The financial support given to asylum seekers is changing next week. Mainly reductions in the financial support given to asylum seekers with children. The Home Office is claiming that this brings the UK in line with Germany and Sweden.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This is what the Grey Market is :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market

Nothing whatsoever to do with what you're talking about.

I find it amazing how you're unable to read the link you quoted.

For those who find simple English difficult to understand (so, the English Defence League) here's what it said:

[A grey market is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels which are legal but are unofficial, unauthorised, or unintended by the original manufacturer

Labour is, of course, recognised by most people (and libertarians) as a commodity that can be traded.

If you're going to attempt to use pedantry, at least try and be correct, yeah?
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Asylum seekers also get free healthcare in the UK which is unlike much of Europe, where you need to pay to see a doctor.

In most of Europe you have to pay to access a doctor, but those who cannot pay due to their income are exempt. Even in Ireland, one of the stricter countries where a consultation fee is in excess of EUR50, allow this for poor people.

The main issue for me is that the UK is not the main draw for most asylum seekers- Germany take almost ten times as many as we do- and we're not the "land of milk and honey" that the right-wing press like to claim we are.

And as well as that, all the waffle about "free movement" being a problem is clearly just that: waffle. These people are not in the UK.

 

[Johnuk123]

I find it amazing how you're unable to read the link you quoted.

For those who find simple English difficult to understand (so, the English Defence League) here's what it said:



Labour is, of course, recognised by most people (and libertarians) as a commodity that can be traded.

If you're going to attempt to use pedantry, at least try and be correct, yeah?
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In most of Europe you have to pay to access a doctor, but those who cannot pay due to their income are exempt. Even in Ireland, one of the stricter countries where a consultation fee is in excess of EUR50, allow this for poor people.

The main issue for me is that the UK is not the main draw for most asylum seekers- Germany take almost ten times as many as we do- and we're not the "land of milk and honey" that the right-wing press like to claim we are.

And as well as that, all the waffle about "free movement" being a problem is clearly just that: waffle. These people are not in the UK.

I'll ignore your abuse about the EDL I'll just say that trying to pretend the grey market is what these economic migrants are coming here for is idiotic.

It's called the black economy and always is by every media outlet, even the BBC who are terrified of using the B word call it that, it's not the grey economy at all.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You're just a big tease you are.

Considering the way certain posters get oh-so-offended (isn't that a PC thing?) when people call them out on certain rather unpleasant views, I'm sure you can understand my caution.

 

[Greenback]

I'd be grateful if you can keep the sniping and bickering out if this discussion, and concentrate more on the discussion rather than having a go at each other. These sorts of back and forth arguments only have the effect of annoying other members, not to mention the fact that it rapidly becomes boring.

Thanks.

 

[Aldaniti]

Considering the way certain posters get oh-so-offended (isn't that a PC thing?) when people call them out on certain rather unpleasant views, I'm sure you can understand my caution.

Any thoughts on Rachel Riley yet?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Any thoughts on Rachel Riley yet?

Why, is she in Calais? Is she taking two from the top and four from the bottom in Cite Europe?

I'll have a burning Pirelli please, Rachel. And another one. And a vowel please.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Any thoughts on Rachel Riley yet?

Going to answer my questions yet?

 

[Aldaniti]

Why, is she in Calais? Is she taking two from the top and four from the bottom in Cite Europe?

I'll have a burning Pirelli please, Rachel. And another one. And a vowel please.

Hey, there's a thought, Countdown in French. I always thought French is best spoken by an attractive woman. Who better than Rachel Riley!

Quoi de mieux?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Hey, there's a thought, Countdown in French. I always thought French is best spoken by an attractive woman. Who better than Rachel Riley!

Quoi de mieux?

I'll take that as a no.

Nice to know you've shown the forum what you really think, though.

 

[Gathursty]

My previous post on this thread were simply suggestions, some were with my tongue firmly in cheek, but some were meant honestly. Why is it a bad idea to have adequate fencing around the Eurotunnel and port but it is not to have security around an airport?

As for humanity, I wait with increasing impatience that the UN can muster some courage and support to deal with the Middle East with more thought and action. If the veto by one country option is removed and replaced with a majority rules, it may have a better and speedier outcome to issues such as Daesh which would help migrants return to their original countries. In the mean time, I have no issue taking some number of refugees but just because you are desperate enough to break through fencing and trouble lorry drivers doesn't endear me to the plight. If they stay in 'the jungle', eventually the French would be forced to do something. If they continue to try to get to Britain, they will be caught in the limbo of Cameron and Hollande trying to get out of doing things to help them. Again, I ask where is the UN to arbitrate.

 

[meridian2]

And as well as that, all the waffle about "free movement" being a problem is clearly just that: waffle. These people are not in the UK.

They are COMING to the UK. COMING is a verb, a waffle is something you cook. See even you struggle with simple English.
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I'll take that as a no.

Nice to know you've shown the forum what you really think, though.

On the contrary he's shown us what you really are: jumped up Oxbridge champagne socialist who I'm ashamed to have funded with my taxpayers money. You are a product of an Orwellian system; a 'yes-man' who does not have the capacity for a proper debate, let alone a discussion.

:roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

They are COMING to the UK. COMING is a verb, a waffle is something you cook. See even you struggle with simple English

to come, vb: to move or travel towards a specified point or place, or arrive at a specified point or place

They're not "coming to the UK", they're stuck in Calais because the UK's border controls are keeping them in France. There ain't no "free movement", that's why they're trying to cling on to HGV axles.

These juxtaposed border controls were put in by Labour, whose policies you claim are "failing".

I'll ask again: what should "Europe" have done differently? If "Europe" are "failing", what do you think "success" looks like?

 

[Johnuk123]

I ask where is the UN to arbitrate.

The UN has long lost any influence and any idea of what constitutes firm action, like the EU it's a very expensive talking shop.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oxbridge champagne socialist

Orwellian system

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean

 

[TheKnightWho]

On the contrary he's shown us what you really are: jumped up Oxbridge champagne socialist who I'm ashamed to have funded with my taxpayers money. You are a product of an Orwellian system; a 'yes-man' who does not have the capacity for a proper debate, let alone a discussion.

:roll:

You have no idea who I am, and frankly your assumptions are pretty hilarious. But of course, typically, you're trying to set things up so you can dismiss me without even beginning to think about what I'm saying. Because that's easy and doesn't require questioning what you actually think.

The fact is that I have asked some questions that have yet to be answered on here, and frankly I find the hatred and dodging of certain posters on this board disgusting. There has been no debate because certain posters have refused to even engage with the discussion. Insulting me and claiming to take some sort of moral high-ground is particularly rich given the situation at hand, too. I'm not the one (like the person you're defending) who judges others based on what they look like.

I can't say I'm too surprised that this debate has become so nasty though - given the total vitriol directed at migrants and those who don't want to treat them like dirt in certain papers, I'm not surprised that people are feeling more free to let their worst sides out.

 

[meridian2]

It's turned nasty because certain people are being provocative and putting words, not to mention questions, in people's mouths. It's like being in my nephew's nursery class.
I don't know you but you come across with so much anger it's hard not to form a negative image of you.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's turned nasty because certain people are being provocative and putting words, not to mention questions, in people's mouths. It's like being in my nephew's nursery class.
I don't know you but you come across with so much anger it's hard not to form a negative image of you.

I entered this thread by asking a couple of questions about what someone said. I'm not the one who started mocking others for it, and frankly quite a lot of what has been said about migrants on this thread is provocative. I'm sure that isn't what you were referring to, though.

 

[meridian2]

No, you're just twisting what I'm saying all the time.

Enough OT, I've said what I said and I'm tired of repeating myself.

 

[TheKnightWho]

No, you're just twisting what I'm saying all the time.

Enough OT, I've said what I said and I'm tired of repeating myself.

What, then, were you referring to?

 

[deltic]

I'd be grateful if you can keep the sniping and bickering out if this discussion, and concentrate more on the discussion rather than having a go at each other. These sorts of back and forth arguments only have the effect of annoying other members, not to mention the fact that it rapidly becomes boring.

Thanks.

hear hear - sorry to see what started as a genuine discussion has ended up as it has

 

[Johnuk123]

Talk of closing the Chunnel is also utter madness - I never thought anyone would seriously make that suggestion, but if there's anything I've learnt, satire is being replaced by reality with certain points of view at the moment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...closed-at-night-if-Calais-crisis-worsens.html

The Channel Tunnel will be closed at night if the Calais crisis worsens under plans being considered by ministers, The Telegraph has learned as it emerged that an African migrant walked almost its entire length.
Ministers have sought legal advice on what was described by Whitehall sources as the "nuclear option" of closing the tunnel to freight and passenger trains overnight.

The proposal, which has been discussed at meetings of the government's emergency Cobra committee, follows concerns that the number of services at night is increasing the risk of migrants making it through the tunnel.

Tunnel closure at least at night now under consideration.

 

[TheKnightWho]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...closed-at-night-if-Calais-crisis-worsens.html




Tunnel closure at least at night now under consideration.

It doesn't stop it being madness. The fact that they are actually considering doing that (at great cost to the economy) rather than actually sorting out the people at the other end says a lot about the priorities of those involved.