Anarchy in Calais

[Aldaniti]

We get our house in order first, there are people who have worked and paid taxes most of their lives including ex military personnel who have risked their lives to protect our freedom who are sleeping rough on the streets, they should take priority over migrants who are here illegally.

Quite right too. I have much sympathy with the way many ex-servicemen are treated by their own country and I would be delighted if my taxes were spent on these men and women, rather than the ones we see on our television screens today. It's nothing personal, it's just that UK taxpayer funds only go so far and our resources can only cope with so much. As an aside, I also thought it was disgraceful that Gurkha servicemen who have, over the years, also served this country with distinction, had to fight just to get the right to abode in this country. Thank goodness for people such as Joanna Lumley. These are the sort of people we should be trying to support.
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The vast majority of people who have lived in the UK all their lives and paid taxes here are not actually net contributors to the Exchequer - most of us take out far more than we pay in but that's a different issue.

Interesting. Not a trick question, can you point me to a source for that information please?

 

[Johnuk123]

Quite right too. I have much sympathy with the way many ex-servicemen are treated by their own country and I would be delighted if my taxes were spent on these men and women, rather than the ones we see on our television screens today. It's nothing personal, it's just that UK taxpayer funds only go so far and our resources can only cope with so much. As an aside, I also thought it was disgraceful that Gurkha servicemen who have, over the years, also served this country with distinction, had to fight just to get the right to abode in this country. Thank goodness for people such as Joanna Lumley. These are the sort of people we should be trying to support.

Charity begins at home is now a statement that people are frightened to say for fear of being called xenophobic, racist etc etc. by the cultural Marxists and liberals that infest every aspect of life today.

Anybody who has a son or daughter injured in combat like I have will testify the way the state and principally the NHS go out of their way to make everything as difficult as possible.

My son after being blown up by the Taliban received first class treatment abroad but as soon as he landed here everything went down hill rapidly.
Not wanting to derail the thread I'll stop there but I will say that anybody who thinks the NHS looks after service personnel with compassion is very mistaken.

 

[Aldaniti]

Charity begins at home is now a statement that people are frightened to say for fear of being called xenophobic, racist etc etc. by the cultural Marxists and liberals that infest every aspect of life today.

Anybody who has a son or daughter injured in combat like I have will testify the way the state and principally the NHS go out of their way to make everything as difficult as possible.

My son after being blown up by the Taliban received first class treatment abroad but as soon as he landed here everything went down hill rapidly.
Not wanting to derail the thread I'll stop there but I will say that anybody who thinks the NHS looks after service personnel with compassion is very mistaken.

Spot on, you're absolutely right too, although I have a thick skin people can call me whatever they like, water off a ducks back and all that. I'm more sorry to read about your son and my heart goes out to him. Although I am just another poster on an internet forum, I do wish him and your family my very best wishes. Our military deserve nothing but the best in medical care and it is shameful when this isn't provided.

 

[Johnuk123]

Spot on, you're absolutely right too, although I have a thick skin people can call me whatever they like, water off a ducks back and all that. I'm more sorry to read about your son and my heart goes out to him. Although I am just another poster on an internet forum, I do wish him and your family my very best wishes. Our military deserve nothing but the best in medical care and it is shameful when this isn't provided.

Thank you very much for those kind words. My sons treatment on the battlefield and even in the air on the way back here saved his life and was superb. Once he entered the NHS system everything fell apart and although some doctors and nurses were good some were truly awful and didn't deserve to be called professionals but as I say nothing to do with this thread.

 

[meridian2]

The problem with these people who instantly cry 'racism'do it merely for provocation. There is no attempt whatsoever to elicit a sensible debate concerning race, and, more worryingly, they can dismiss it by simply stating: 'because you don't find it offensive doesn't make it so'. That's not a sensible resolution to an argument about race, merely, it is a conversational tool to close down debates.
Now take these migrants from Calais, these people who blatantly break the law and put other people's lives in danger. Person A comes along and says I'm being 'racist', trying to instantly close down the debate by dismissing me as a racist. Person B comes along and argues that the migrants race is immaterial here: it's their lack of responsibility for ensuring that their actions don't break the law or don't endanger other people's lives. Person A retorts and says 'you don't find it offensive ergo your views don't count', trying to provoke Person B INTO making a racist comment. Etcetera, etcetera. The debate becomes a stalemate, because Person B is clearly not rising to the provocation. We see it time and time again that there is this vein of liberal thinking, to which Person A belongs to, whose ideologies are superficial, counter-intuitive and downright provocative. There is no attempt at a sensible, reasonable debate. It merely becomes name-calling.
I'm sorry if this is going off-topic.

 

[AM9]

How is #163 ill considered rubbish?

It clearly doesn't have any rational basis for the reasons that I have posted. Nor has he/she attempted to respond to my comments, so it may be that it was in a fit of xenophobic frenzy

Why would residents of Calais object to proper fencing? They must be sick and tired of this lawless mob on their doorstep?

The prospect of having parts of my home town fenced off with security ever in attendance, - maybe permanently, would seem unfair for something that was neither of my doing would not give me much comfort. I suppose a town like Clacton might favour it as a solution given their recent political proclivities.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

We get our house in order first, there are people who have worked and paid taxes most of their lives including ex military personnel who have risked their lives to protect our freedom who are sleeping rough on the streets, they should take priority over migrants who are here illegally.

I would suggest we should rather be helping people on the basis of need. It looks from your post like you're trying to distinguish how deserving people should be of being helped on the basis of where they are from - I think that's morally repugnant. Yes, it's horrendous that there are homeless people on our streets, and the Government should really be doing more to help those too. I have no doubt that there are some tragic stories amongst Britain's homeless - and people who really should be getting more assistance. But it seems to me morally completely wrong to use the existence of one group of very disadvantaged people as an excuse to justify not helping another group of equally (or possibly even more) disadvantaged people.

Your point about UK homeless people having paid taxes is somewhat misleading too: Any adult who is British and was born and grew up in the UK has almost certainly had tens of thousands of pounds spent on them by the Government - for example on their education and on their healthcare, and may well have in the past received welfare benefits too - while I don't have any figures, it's very plausible that for many (most?) of Britain's native homeless, that would far exceed any amount they might have paid in taxes. By contrast, the Calais migrants have up to now, on the whole, not received anything at all from the UK Government.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Charity begins at home is now a statement that people are frightened to say for fear of being called xenophobic, racist etc etc. by the cultural Marxists and liberals that infest every aspect of life today.

Anybody who has a son or daughter injured in combat like I have will testify the way the state and principally the NHS go out of their way to make everything as difficult as possible.

My son after being blown up by the Taliban received first class treatment abroad but as soon as he landed here everything went down hill rapidly.
Not wanting to derail the thread I'll stop there but I will say that anybody who thinks the NHS looks after service personnel with compassion is very mistaken.

I'm curious as to what you think a cultural Marxist is - please, do go on.

 

[meridian2]

Somebody, within British culture, who holds views that conform to Marxism.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The problem with these people who instantly cry 'racism'do it merely for provocation. There is no attempt whatsoever to elicit a sensible debate concerning race, and, more worryingly, they can dismiss it by simply stating: 'because you don't find it offensive doesn't make it so'. That's not a sensible resolution to an argument about race, merely, it is a conversational tool to close down debates.
Now take these migrants from Calais, these people who blatantly break the law and put other people's lives in danger. Person A comes along and says I'm being 'racist', trying to instantly close down the debate by dismissing me as a racist. Person B comes along and argues that the migrants race is immaterial here: it's their lack of responsibility for ensuring that their actions don't break the law or don't endanger other people's lives. Person A retorts and says 'you don't find it offensive ergo your views don't count', trying to provoke Person B INTO making a racist comment. Etcetera, etcetera. The debate becomes a stalemate, because Person B is clearly not rising to the provocation. We see it time and time again that there is this vein of liberal thinking, to which Person A belongs to, whose ideologies are superficial, counter-intuitive and downright provocative. There is no attempt at a sensible, reasonable debate. It merely becomes name-calling.
I'm sorry if this is going off-topic.

Ignoring 90% of the context is the problem here. People in this country seem to have no issue with immigrants from countries like the U.S., Australia and Western Europe, and it shows in the reports by papers which consistently report immigration from countries other than those. Conveniently, alongside total numbers - implying they're all like the worst example they can find.

Racism is not a simple or easy thing to always recognise, talk about or resolve. Dismissing people because you personally don't find it offensive is not a productive way to discuss these things.
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Somebody, within British culture, who holds views that conform to Marxism.

I suspect that isn't what he means We're not exactly talking economics here.

 

[deltic]

Charity begins at home is now a statement that people are frightened to say for fear of being called xenophobic, racist etc etc. by the cultural Marxists and liberals that infest every aspect of life today.

Anybody who has a son or daughter injured in combat like I have will testify the way the state and principally the NHS go out of their way to make everything as difficult as possible.

My son after being blown up by the Taliban received first class treatment abroad but as soon as he landed here everything went down hill rapidly.
Not wanting to derail the thread I'll stop there but I will say that anybody who thinks the NHS looks after service personnel with compassion is very mistaken.

Very sorry to hear about your son's injuries and the way he has been treated
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Interesting. Not a trick question, can you point me to a source for that information please?

See http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/house...4/summary--historical-data--1977-2013-14.html

Not surprisingly households in the lowest four deciles receive more cash in benefits than they pay in all taxes - when all benefits in kind are taken into account (eg education, health etc) then the lowest six deciles receive more than they pay in

 

[Aldaniti]

Very sorry to hear about your son's injuries and the way he has been treated
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See http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/house...4/summary--historical-data--1977-2013-14.html

Not surprisingly households in the lowest four deciles receive more cash in benefits than they pay in all taxes - when all benefits in kind are taken into account (eg education, health etc) then the lowest six deciles receive more than they pay in

OK, thanks for that deltic. I had a feeling that this was the case but I didn't realise the percentages were so great. What a state of affairs.
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Thank you very much for those kind words. My sons treatment on the battlefield and even in the air on the way back here saved his life and was superb. Once he entered the NHS system everything fell apart and although some doctors and nurses were good some were truly awful and didn't deserve to be called professionals but as I say nothing to do with this thread.

No problem at all. Thanks also for the PM, sorry to make a public post about this - I have replied but don't see the message in my Sent box. Are you able to confirm receipt?

 

[Johnuk123]

No problem at all. Thanks also for the PM, sorry to make a public post about this - I have replied but don't see the message in my Sent box. Are you able to confirm receipt?

Yes thanks.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/595892/Phil-Woolas-Labour-blame-migrant-crisis

A FORMER minister has admitted the last Labour government's "soft-minded liberalism" is to blame for the Calais migrant crisis.
Phil Woolas, who served as immigration minister from 2008 until 2010 under ex-Prime Minister Gordon Brown, blamed his party's failure to introduce ID cards while in power and Tony Blair's introduction of the Human Rights Act.

The former MP claimed the latter has made it more difficult for British judges to deport foreigners, who have effectively been given the same legal rights as those of UK citizens."The mess in Calais is down to years of soft-minded liberalism and utter naivety.

Can't argue with that, it was said at the time but of course was dismissed as scaremongering and racism.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes thanks.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/595892/Phil-Woolas-Labour-blame-migrant-crisis


Can't argue with that, it was said at the time but of course was dismissed as scaremongering and racism.

Oh you can definitely argue with the very flawed analysis there as well as the incorrect and loaded use of the word 'admitted' where what is actually meant is 'expressed an opinion', but I'll leave that to others with more time than I have to argue.

I will however comment that the failure to introduce ID cards was not the fault of Labour - it was due to opposition by the Conservatives, the LibDems and well - just about everyone else (Including I seem to recall, though not 100% certain, UKIP). It was the coalition Government, not Labour, that scrapped identity cards. Since your post seems to imply you would like ID cards, can I take it that means you would have supported Labour in its attempts to introduce them?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Told today , by someone in the know - that the pitiful normal CTL freight twixt UK and Europe is (and the other way) is now re-scheduled for the daylighthours -as less risk of inucrsions.

 

[meridian2]

Yes thanks.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/595892/Phil-Woolas-Labour-blame-migrant-crisis



Can't argue with that, it was said at the time but of course was dismissed as scaremongering and racism.

Labour's policies didn't help the situation, but the Calais problem, and the continued crisis of migrants crossing the Med, have demonstrated Europe has failed to grasp the reigns and take control.It is this continued emphasis on free migration over targeted migration that will forever undermine Europe's ability to curb these issues in the long-term, not to mention their emphasis on humanity over responsibility.
And now, ironically, the very companies that rely on trade with the EU are losing thousands because of an EU-created situation.

 

[AM9]

Labour's policies didn't help the situation, but the Calais problem, and the continued crisis of migrants crossing the Med, have demonstrated Europe has failed to grasp the reigns and take control.It is this continued emphasis on free migration over targeted migration that will forever undermine Europe's ability to curb these issues in the long-term, not to mention their emphasis on humanity over responsibility.

However, there is a view that those migrants who make such determined efforts to escape whatever problem there is in their homeland are resourceful, fit and likely to be model citizens in any new country that offers them asylum. Such behaviour can be contrasted against those of the indigenous population who show no commitment to contribute and regard everything that their country can provide as an automatic birthright rather than based on individuall need.
As the USA has proven over the last 100+ years, countries with willing immigrant populations can be economically strong, and this weakens when they start pulling up the drawbridge.

 

[Johnuk123]

However, there is a view that those migrants who make such determined efforts to escape whatever problem there is in their homeland are resourceful, fit and likely to be model citizens in any new country that offers them asylum. .

Surely if you're resourceful, fit and a model citizen you should remain where you are and try and improve the country you're in.

These economic migrants at Calais have simply abandoned their families to come here for a better life leaving behind the young, old and sick.
They might be resourceful but they certainly aren't model citizens.

 

[Antman]

Surely if you're resourceful, fit and a model citizen you should remain where you are and try and improve the country you're in.

These economic migrants at Calais have simply abandoned their families to come here for a better life leaving behind the young, old and sick.
They might be resourceful but they certainly aren't model citizens.

Indeed and judging by their lawless behaviour in Calais which we see on our TV screens would any country want them?

 

[meridian2]

However, there is a view that those migrants who make such determined efforts to escape whatever problem there is in their homeland are resourceful, fit and likely to be model citizens in any new country that offers them asylum..

That's the aim of free migration: countries get 'model citizens' who contribute to the economy, but the reality is far from that, a reality you dismiss by being disingenuous suggesting that trespassers are model citizens.

 

[AM9]

Surely if you're resourceful, fit and a model citizen you should remain where you are and try and improve the country you're in.

Sure, just tell IS and Assad where they need to change. Or tell the Eritrean Government where they have got it wrong, oh wait a minute the UN said in 2014 that a refugee exodus was being fuelled by alleged abuses including extrajudicial executions, torture and forced military conscription that can last decades. There are similar issues in all the countries where migrants are 'just coming here for an easy life'.
How convenient it would be for those repelling these would-be migrants if they would just stay in their own country and do as they are told - or die. SEP!

These economic migrants at Calais have simply abandoned their families to come here for a better life leaving behind the young, old and sick.
They might be resourceful but they certainly aren't model citizens.

I doubt that you have any verifyable evidence that this represents more than a token few that the media have found. Many of them have brought their families along, to much criticism from westerners, so they are damned either way, but their desperate plight is still there. Given the same circumstances, how would those here shrugging the problem off deal with such a life in their circimstances?

 

[NSEFAN]

Surely if you're resourceful, fit and a model citizen you should remain where you are and try and improve the country you're in.

These economic migrants at Calais have simply abandoned their families to come here for a better life leaving behind the young, old and sick.
They might be resourceful but they certainly aren't model citizens.

Staying and working to make the country better may be the noble thing to do but it's not the smart thing. It's alright for us to say such things because, even if you live here illegally and are being paid slave wages, the UK is generally politically and environmentally stable, has good infrastructure, has good public health and a relatively low crime rate. These people generally come from poor countries with the opposite of these things.

Under such circumstances it's not surprising that people believe the UK is this wonderful land of milk and honey and try to get in at any cost. Such a hope of a "promised land" is what keeps people going. I find it hard to believe that you cannot appreciate how messed up some places are in the world. If you (naively) believed that there was a far away land of safety and prosperity that you could get your family too, would you not too try to break down fences and establish yourself there?

 

[meridian2]

I doubt that you have any verifyable evidence that this represents more than a token few that the media have found. Many of them have brought their families along, to much criticism from westerners, so they are damned either way, but their desperate plight is still there. Given the same circumstances, how would those here shrugging the problem off deal with such a life in their circimstances?

'1,500/2,000 incursions over the weekend is a'token few'.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Surely if you're resourceful, fit and a model citizen you should remain where you are and try and improve the country you're in.

These economic migrants at Calais have simply abandoned their families to come here for a better life leaving behind the young, old and sick.
They might be resourceful but they certainly aren't model citizens.

I'm sure you'd stay in a total warzone if you had to, but not everyone is able to. I cannot believe you see that as a serious proposition.

 

[Aldaniti]

Our jails are full of very fit and resourceful individuals... My town centre seems to have quite a number of immigrants sat around chatting and doing very little, and tend to congregate at about 5pm for some unknown reason. Makes the town centre look like a refugee camp sometimes. A few sit outside Caffe Nero drinking coffee for half the day - lucky them!

 

[telstarbox]

I see yummy mummies sitting in the coffee shops on Marylebone High St for half the day, chatting and doing very little, is that a crime?

 

[Aldaniti]

I see yummy mummies sitting in the coffee shops on Marylebone High St for half the day, chatting and doing very little, is that a crime?

No, not if they're good looking and sat outside. I'm as partial to a little top class totty as the next man - especially if they're wearing black knee-length boots with designer jeans - so would consider that to be a public service.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Our jails are full of very fit and resourceful individuals... My town centre seems to have quite a number of immigrants sat around chatting and doing very little, and tend to congregate at about 5pm for some unknown reason. Makes the town centre look like a refugee camp sometimes. A few sit outside Caffe Nero drinking coffee for half the day - lucky them!

What about them makes it look like a refugee camp? And how do you know they're immigrants?

A certain word is starting to spring to mind.

 

[AM9]

'1,500/2,000 incursions over the weekend is a'token few'.

Either you didn't read my post in the context of Johnuk123's statement, of you are choosing not to address the issue. Let me repeat the statement in context:

Johnuk123 said:
"These economic migrants at Calais have simply abandoned their families to come here for a better life leaving behind the young, old and sick.
They might be resourceful but they certainly aren't model citizens."

my post said:
"I doubt that you have any verifyable evidence that this represents more than a token few that the media have found..."

So your assertion is that the media publishing pictures/video footage of 1500/2000 'incursions' confirms that all of those are economic migrants. It's hard to believe that somebody here would actually post such a statement, unless of course you want to believe that they are all on the scrounge. That makes it easy to dismiss all the desperate struggle that these unfortunates are trapped in. Not your problem. Mmmm.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What about them makes it look like a refugee camp? And how do you know they're immigrants?

A certain word is starting to spring to mind.

Cat? Is that the word that is starting to spring to mind? I love guessing games.