An idea for Summer, to help attract passengers

[Philip]

In relation to yesterday's announcement about the easing of lockdown in time for Summer and the hope of 'a great Summer' and with most tourism this year going to be taking place within our shores, would you like to see this one-off idea come to fruition and do you think it will serve its purpose in attracting the majority of pre-pandemic passengers back to the railway?

Basically an addition to the May timetable of a 'seaside special' train, one per day each way and serving most or all seaside resort towns, plus perhaps also some non-coastal tourist hotspots (ie. Devon, Norfolk Broads, Settle and Carlisle)? The train would leave wherever around 9-10am and then make the return from the seaside at 5-6pm and would run at the same time every day, 7 days a week from the May timetable change through to 31st August. It would not be timetabled or priced as a charter train, but just in the normal timetable with the standard fare applying. Reservations however would be compulsory to prevent overcrowding. To help impress passengers and help win them over, each train would be formed of mk1 or 2 coaching stock and with either a steam loco or an early heritage diesel loco pulling (so class 31/40/42/50/52/55). This of course means it won't be sustainable long term, but just for 3 months and with the full timetable not likely to be reinstated until Autumn or December, I feel it could work and with a major advertising campaign it might just be what the railway needs; to bring a bit of romance back to travelling by train and making it convenient for day trippers and people going on holiday to the seaside this Summer, before foreign holidays likely take off again next year. This would impress many and might just persuade them to start travelling by train regularly again, having been put off during the pandemic.

In terms of numbers, perhaps up to 40-50 sets of 6-7 coaches plus the loco should be enough to cover most routes.

Some direct routes run by the specials:

London Victoria to Brighton
Manchester Victoria to Southport
Liverpool to Blackpool North
Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough
Sheffield to Carlisle via Clitheroe and Ribblehead
Sheffield to Bridlington
Derby to Skegness
Crewe to Llandudno
Newcastle to Cleethorpes
Edinburgh to Wick
London Liverpool Street to Great Yarmouth
London Paddington to Penzance
Birmingham New Street to Newquay
London Paddington to Weston Super Mare
London Euston to Windermere

 

[JonathanH]

In terms of numbers, perhaps up to 40-50 sets of 6-7 coaches plus the loco should be enough to cover most routes.

No. They don't exist and passengers are happy just to travel in units.

Taking the first route off your list, a 12-car 377 at normal fares is by far the best rolling stock to use between London Victoria and Brighton.

To help impress passengers and help win them over, each train would be formed of mk1 or 2 coaching stock and with either a steam loco or an early heritage diesel loco pulling (so class 31/40/42/50/52/55).

That sounds like something for a select group of rail enthusiasts, not the general public.

It would not be timetabled or priced as a charter train, but just in the normal timetable with the standard fare applying.

Who is paying the shortfall in fares? The government is ploughing billions into the railway already and the mainline traincrew aren't trained on the relevant traction or rolling stock.

 

[matt]

Where are you planning to find all these mainline registered locos and coaches?

 

[JonathanH]

Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough

It will be interesting to see how well the Scarborough Spa Express loads this year which is perhaps the closest operation to what you are suggesting. You'll note that it fits on a slightly quieter part of the network than at Manchester Piccadilly.

Funnily enough people are prepared to pay higher fares to travel on this service as they are on other trips run by West Coast Railways which fit into the kind of services you are suggesting.

However, it can't be a 'normal' service because it doesn't meet post-2020 disabled access requirements.

The mainline railway does cover some of the suggestions in this thread already using rolling stock which meets modern standards and using the resources it already has.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When we definitely want things going again, I'd do "get out to help out" with some hefty discounts. Perhaps even something like "everything half-price" as was done after the "gauge corner cracking" thing messed up the entire network for a few months.

 

[JonathanH]

When we definitely want things going again, I'd do "get out to help out" with some hefty discounts. Perhaps even something like "everything half-price" as was done after the "gauge corner cracking" thing messed up the entire network for a few months.

Just the sun shining would make a big difference - there is no need to destroy the potential revenue at the same time.

 

[HST43257]

When we definitely want things going again, I'd do "get out to help out" with some hefty discounts. Perhaps even something like "everything half-price" as was done after the "gauge corner cracking" thing messed up the entire network for a few months.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Northern (or someone else) do another flash sale. Get out to help out would be excellent, especially in peak summer season - may even need extra trains on some routes!

 

[Philip]

No. They don't exist and passengers are happy just to travel in units.

Taking the first route off your list, a 12-car 377 at normal fares is by far the best rolling stock to use between London Victoria and Brighton.


That sounds like something for a select group of rail enthusiasts, not the general public.


Who is paying the shortfall in fares? The government is ploughing billions into the railway already and the mainline traincrew aren't trained on the relevant traction or rolling stock.

It wouldn't be good for revenue over the time it is running, but if it speeds up the progress of attracting passengers back to the railway then it could more than pay for itself.

I think you underestimate how 'non-enthusiast' passengers feel about trains. They might not be trainspotters, but many would be quite taken by the idea of something a bit nostalgic; and if a steam was booked to haul a train then passengers would be queuing up for reservations for it. Just using a standard DMU or EMU wouldn't have anywhere near the same effect.

Perhaps some modern coaching stock and locos would be needed, but my idea is to use as many heritage machines as possible, and swap them around different route diagrams so that every route gets a share of a heritage set on some days.

 

[87 027]

Does that argument work? People who aren’t attracted onto the railways by DMUs and EMUs will come if there is steam, and then stay when services revert back to DMUs and EMUs?

 

[Non Multi]

There's a big discount already baked into the fares system. During July and August have 'Child Fare Weekends'. The 'full fare' revenue loss would be offset by the (hopefully) increased ridership and those enticed to do longer journeys, as well as the goodwill to the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're talking steam, DB do I think get the idea of Plandampf, i.e. operating timetabled but tourist oriented services using steam, though I don't know if they still do it.

 

[Ianno87]

Just the sun shining would make a big difference - there is no need to destroy the potential revenue at the same time.

I'd almost save promotions to the post-summer leisure dip; keep punters travelling when suddenly the weather ain't so nice.

 

[BayPaul]

You would be reducing capacity on most of those routes - I would imagine that even if a steam special set off from Paddington to Penzance immediately behind one 802 to the west, it would have the next one queued up behind it before it got to Taunton.
Many of the suggested terminus stations also don't have the ability for a loco to run around / turn to take the train back home either

 

[JonathanH]

I'd almost save promotions to the post-summer leisure dip; keep punters travelling when suddenly the weather ain't so nice.

Yes. I agree - there is more sense in keeping promotions for the autumn, not the summer (which funnily enough is what the railway tends to do).

 

[The Planner]

So effectively railtours then. The railway isn't there to do that, let the charter market deal with it if they think there is money to be made.

 

[JonathanH]

I think you underestimate how 'non-enthusiast' passengers feel about trains. They might not be trainspotters, but many would be quite taken by the idea of something a bit nostalgic; and if a steam was booked to haul a train then passengers would be queuing up for reservations for it. Just using a standard DMU or EMU wouldn't have anywhere near the same effect.

I understand how much a steam train turns heads. Indeed, the hype is so great in some instances that it leads to people trespassing on the track and preventing the operation going smoothly.

I even understand, having seen it, how using one on a normal service captured imagination in February 2017 when they used Tornado between Appleby and Skipton.

However, there now aren't any suitable coaches that can be used for a mainline service as none have exemption from the PRM requirements. I think the issues are just too great for the safety case and budgets of the TOCs, which, you will remember are under constrained budgets and government control right now.

Throughout the Summer, WCRC run trips from Crewe or York to the Settle & Carlisle line and from the North Pennines to Scarborough. The routes used are no accident as they have facilities to enable the trains to run. They also have different fares. At the very least, your proposal would require the mainline railway to hire in stock and locomotives from WCRC or LSL. Is that really practical when those operators can use the stock themselves on organised charters and still turn heads?

I don't think it is a magic bullet to get people using standard DMUs or EMUs again.

Perhaps some modern coaching stock and locos would be needed, but my idea is to use as many heritage machines as possible

They just aren't compatible. You can't just put a class 25 on top of a 195 and run a passenger service.

 

[Ianno87]

Also, passengers are going to be sensitive to the cleanliness and appearance of the train.

Sending out a loco and load of grimy Mk 1s is hardly going to appeal to the masses.... (nor project an image of an efficient, relevant, modern railway).

 

[Aictos]

The railway has in the past and still does I believe, operated extra services that are limited stops purely to get people to and from events eg under First Capital Connect whenever Arsenal played at home they always put on football specials from Hertford, Peterborough etc to get fans to the game and back again which called at limited stops but normal fares applied.

So that being said instead the OP's idea, for years eg Summer Saturdays meant operating the London Liverpool Street to Great Yarmouth via Norwich with Class 47s dragging the train to Great Yarmouth and back with the Class 86/90 being responsible between London and Norwich but in this case, could the railway continue to operate those summer saturday services?

 

[Philip]

Does that argument work? People who aren’t attracted onto the railways by DMUs and EMUs will come if there is steam, and then stay when services revert back to DMUs and EMUs?

My idea is psychological, in that it'd make many passengers think 'wow, the railway industry is making a big effort here and credit to them, perhaps they deserve my custom on a more regular basis again'.

Reading some of the projections on this forum, it seems like the railway is in a mess and will take much longer to recover to its pre-pandemic status than most other industries. I've read posts stating that it could be 2025 before passenger numbers are back to 2019 levels. It just seems like there might need to be some thinking out of the box in order to help the situation recover more quickly.

I'm not sure a long term reduction in fares is the answer because the railway is already in a big debt.

 

[steamybrian]

I agree with the problems of finding ..
...suitable main line certified steam locomotives plus locos to move the stock to and from the starting point.(insufficient steam locos available ...to provide all the routes listed on the same day.
There are not 40 or 50 main line certified mark 1 coaches available.
Staffing difficulties in providing suitably qualified steam drivers available to work on the main line all at the same time during the busy summer period.
Provision of coal and water supplies to be provided at extra costs.
Pathing trains on fast main line routes.
How long would a round trip from "Edinburgh to Wick", "Birmingham to Newquay" or "Paddington to Penzance" take by a steam special- ?
Feasibility of departing at 0900 return at 5pm. More like depart 0900 and arrive destination at 5pm (or later) before even considering the return journey.
High cost of providing these against the fares received.

I will agree that providing a "plandampf" service on a short branch line may be more worthwhile.

 

[Bald Rick]

It wouldn't be good for revenue over the time it is running, but if it speeds up the progress of attracting passengers back to the railway then it could more than pay for itself.

But why would it do that?

I think you underestimate how 'non-enthusiast' passengers feel about trains. They might not be trainspotters, but many would be quite taken by the idea of something a bit nostalgic; and if a steam was booked to haul a train then passengers would be queuing up for reservations for it. Just using a standard DMU or EMU wouldn't have anywhere near the same effect.

I think you over estimate. You could achieve 90%+ of the benefit, for none of the cost, by simply promoting the existing services on those routes.

My idea is psychological, in that it'd make many passengers think 'wow, the railway industry is making a big effort here and credit to them, perhaps they deserve my custom on a more regular basis again'.

Or they’d think ‘wow, why is the industry putting a load of effort into this, when it could be running the rest of the Network more effectively’

In any event, the Summer timetable has been written and will be published the week after next.

 

[Bigman]

I remember donkeys years ago, you could get holiday trains from Leeds on a Saturday morning to Llandudno, Skegness, Great Yarmouth and Paignton. How about trains from the North East/North West to places like Brighton, Eastbourne, Bournemouth and Weymouth? They would be definitely targeted at holidaymakers as opposed to the usual day trip bashers. I was such a basher years ago and still am where I am able to.

 

[Ianno87]

I remember donkeys years ago, you could get holiday trains from Leeds on a Saturday morning to Llandudno, Skegness, Great Yarmouth and Paignton. How about trains from the North East/North West to places like Brighton, Eastbourne, Bournemouth and Weymouth? They would be definitely targeted at holidaymakers as opposed to the usual day trip bashers. I was such a basher years ago and still am where I am able to.

"Definitely".

If people actually want to make these journeys, regular trains are available to do so (with changes).

 

[Bigman]

You don't really want the hassle of changing if you are going off for a week and are wheeling heavy cases. Going on a 6-7 hour journey always felt like you were properly going on holiday.

 

[Ianno87]

You don't really want the hassle of changing if you are going off for a week and are wheeling heavy cases. Going on a 6-7 hour journey always felt like you were properly going on holiday.

...can you fill an entire train with people specifically wanting to travel from Leeds to Eastbourne?

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m still chuckling about Edinburgh to Wick..

 

[Ianno87]

I’m still chuckling about Edinburgh to Wick..

My personal tourist highlights of Wick are Wetherspoons and the CoOp.

 

[JonathanH]

You don't really want the hassle of changing if you are going off for a week and are wheeling heavy cases. Going on a 6-7 hour journey always felt like you were properly going on holiday.

Travelling from Leeds or York to Brighton is a lot quicker than 6-7 hours - you get on one fast train to Stevenage, get off, wait a few minutes and go right through to Brighton - you hardly have to walk at all.

 

[zwk500]

I remember donkeys years ago, you could get holiday trains from Leeds on a Saturday morning to Llandudno, Skegness, Great Yarmouth and Paignton. How about trains from the North East/North West to places like Brighton, Eastbourne, Bournemouth and Weymouth? They would be definitely targeted at holidaymakers as opposed to the usual day trip bashers. I was such a basher years ago and still am where I am able to.

Leeds has direct hourly services to Scarborough, and most of lincolnshire's beaches are within 1 change. Manchester has services to Llandudno & Bournemouth. Brighton and Eastbourne fill up on London day trippers anyway, by the time people from the North West/North East had made it to Sussex there'd be no room left on the beach

You don't really want the hassle of changing if you are going off for a week and are wheeling heavy cases. Going on a 6-7 hour journey always felt like you were properly going on holiday.

People aren't going to be going for week-long breaks in the UK. They go for day trips or possibly a long weekend. Even with covid restricting international travel I don't see that really changing. Getting people from Leeds/Manchester/Birmingham to the beach means 2hrs max.

 

[Bald Rick]

You don't really want the hassle of changing if you are going off for a week and are wheeling heavy cases

How would you get to the station? Or to your accommodation the other end?