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An idea for Summer, to help attract passengers

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Bigman

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How would you get to the station? Or to your accommodation the other end?
Taxi or in your own car I would imagine. Still less hassle not having to change, but that is my personal preference.

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Travelling from Leeds or York to Brighton is a lot quicker than 6-7 hours - you get on one fast train to Stevenage, get off, wait a few minutes and go right through to Brighton - you hardly have to walk at all.
Don't fancy riding on an ironing board from Stevenage all the way to Brighton.
 
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Neptune

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I suspect that there’ll be plenty of passengers this summer once lockdown is eased regardless of the traction used. No need for track capacity busting heritage trains.
 

Philip

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But why would it do that?




I think you over estimate. You could achieve 90%+ of the benefit, for none of the cost, by simply promoting the existing services on those routes.




Or they’d think ‘wow, why is the industry putting a load of effort into this, when it could be running the rest of the Network more effectively’

In any event, the Summer timetable has been written and will be published the week after next.

As I said, there may need to be some thinking outside of the box to help win people over if the situation is as bad as some are saying. Something like this would get people talking about the railway again and bring some excitement back to rail travel.

If loco hauled isn't an option for practical reasons, then heritage first generation DMUs would have a similar effect.
 

zwk500

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To help impress passengers and help win them over, each train would be formed of mk1 or 2 coaching stock and with either a steam loco or an early heritage diesel loco pulling (so class 31/40/42/50/52/55).
How are you planning to service the steam loco, coal and water it, and turn it? And crew the damn thing - there's only a finite number of steam drivers, and they drive 'regular' trains during the week.
This would impress many and might just persuade them to start travelling by train regularly again, having been put off during the pandemic.
At this point what will impress most regular passengers is to run services on time. Steam and Heritage diesels do not achieve this goal
In terms of numbers, perhaps up to 40-50 sets of 6-7 coaches plus the loco should be enough to cover most routes.
Between 240 and 350 mk1s/2s are not available to mainline standard, even if you were to shut down every heritage railway in the land for the duration of this ?plan?
Some direct routes run by the specials:
London Victoria to Brighton, Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough, Crewe to Llandudno, London Paddington to Penzance, Birmingham New Street to Newquay*
Already runs in normal operation *- I think
Manchester Victoria to Southport, Sheffield to Bridlington, Derby to Skegness, London Liverpool Street to Great Yarmouth, London Paddington to Weston Super Mare, London Euston to Windermere
1 change in normal timetable
Liverpool to Blackpool North, Newcastle to Cleethorpes
Why would people leave these cities when they have their own beaches?
Sheffield to Carlisle via Clitheroe and Ribblehead, Edinburgh to Wick
Oh come on
 

JonathanH

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As I said, there may need to be some thinking outside of the box to help win people over if the situation is as bad as some are saying. Something like this would get people talking about the railway again and bring some excitement back to rail travel.
The issue really isn't about leisure travel though is it. It is peak-time middle distance commuters and full fare travellers who need to be brought back to the railway.
 

Ianno87

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Taxi or in your own car I would imagine. Still less hassle not having to change, but that is my personal preference.

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Check how much a weeks parking costs at Leeds or York...

Don't fancy riding on an ironing board from Stevenage all the way to Brighton.

The general population of Yorkshire must have some superb knowledge of rolling stock of the South East then. Oh wait, you're talking about your preference, I see.

Most normal passengers would prefer a modern, air conned 700 over a knackered set of Mk 1s. And a choice of departure time that suits them, not one single train. Plus plug sockets, wi fi and the like.
 

Bald Rick

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Taxi or in your own car I would imagine. Still less hassle not having to change, but that is my personal preference.
Accepting that a change of train is less hassle... but getting stuff into a car, then out of it, then through a station, then onto a train, then off the train, then through the station, then into another car, then out of it is a lot more hassle in total. Particularly if you are taking all the kit and caboodle for a week at a seaside resort with 2.4 children.

In these circumstances, given the choice of

a) a direct train
b) a train with one change
c) the car

How many extra people will really choose to use the train if it is direct?


As I said, there may need to be some thinking outside of the box to help win people over if the situation is as bad as some are saying

The situation will be bad. Very bad. And I really like ‘outside of the box thinking’. However your outside of the box thinking has come up with a possible answer that is outside the wrong box.

The leisure market will return relatively quickly. Indeed possibly to a higher level than we saw pre-pandemic, at least for a year or two. But what we need back, desperately, is premium fare long distance business traffic, and longer distance (+20 miles) London commuters. These are people who will be more likely than most to park a large German car in the station car park.

I really don’t see how encouraging bucket and spade trips to Eastbourne, Cleethorpes or, ahem, Wick would make the punters who use them think “You know what, this trip on a half century old train to the beach has really made we want to buy a £5k season ticket from Colchester to London”.

Something like this would get people talking about the railway again and bring some excitement back to rail travel.

Excitement in terms of ‘will we get there or not’, perhaps. Oh and the excitement of “Mummy, why are there lots of men on this train wearing anoraks in Summer?”


 

87 027

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Last time I travelled on a heritage multiple unit on a preserved railway my wife was distinctly unimpressed with the idea. Said she used to travel to school every day on one of those rattly old things and why on earth would she want to relive that experience for pleasure?
 

ChiefPlanner

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The railways are going to be under the most severe Treasury orientated scrutiny coming up - so an 8 car versus a 4 car on a branch line may well be challenged going forward. Let alone investment in the base railway.

The great British public are not interested in heritage seaside specials - though others (a minority) are - nice dream.
 

yorksrob

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From a political point of view, the railway needs to make itself indispensable to the public. Serving the leisure market well may be an easier way to do this than enticing back all of the commuters. That said, that will be easier by ensuring the day to day service to leisure destinations is properly served by having decent frequencies and capacity.

Having units that can be switched between commuter and leisure services when needed might be the best way.
 

telstarbox

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I think the leisure market to Brighton / London / stag dos to York / the horseracing at Chester etc will bounce back as soon as things open up. A lot of people will be eager to get out and many will have a backlog of disposal income.

The TOCs may only need to buy a few website banner ads saying "click here to go to Margate / Scarborough for a tenner".

Also I don't know about the rest of the country but the seaside resorts in Kent have come back into fashion in the last few years, certainly for day trips or weekenders. At least part of that is due to good rail links from London. Brighton is more established but again the train is attractive compared to very pricey parking.
 
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route101

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Id like to see reasonable fares for longer distance days out. Like Glasgow to Dundee/Aviemore/Oban/Oxenholme/Newcastle etc
 

JonathanH

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Id like to see reasonable fares for longer distance days out. Like Glasgow to Dundee/Aviemore/Oban/Oxenholme/Newcastle etc
Do they not exist already? What would you define as a reasonable price for each of those journeys?

£34.80 for a day trip from Glasgow to Oxenholme and back isn't extortion. How much should a 300 mile round trip cost? Admittedly the pricing to Newcastle (and indeed Windermere) isn't anywhere near so keen.
 
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87 027

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Depends on how many people are travelling. Marginal cost of having spouse and 2.4 kids in the car as well as the driver is negligible - families will compare the cost of the whole package, especially if cash is tight after the year we've been through. Rail can still win out but we shouldn't fall into the trap of looking at single person pricing
 

JonathanH

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Rail can still win out but we shouldn't fall into the trap of looking at single person pricing
No. Indeed that is why Two Together and the Family & Friends Railcard is part of the standard offering of the railway - that way it takes a reasonable fare from people travelling alone and offers a reduction on that fare to certain groups of travellers.
 

Llandudno

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Free family and Two Together Railcards, perhaps in injunction with some national newspapers, ie coupon codes printed in the paper

or going back to the late 1970s 2 for 1 travel tokens on Persil boxes!
 

LittleAH

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There's a big issue here still - social distancing. This still be may be prevalent this summer. So wildly discounted fares, bar the odd sale, are unlikely.
 

theironroad

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In relation to yesterday's announcement about the easing of lockdown in time for Summer and the hope of 'a great Summer' and with most tourism this year going to be taking place within our shores, would you like to see this one-off idea come to fruition and do you think it will serve its purpose in attracting the majority of pre-pandemic passengers back to the railway?

Basically an addition to the May timetable of a 'seaside special' train, one per day each way and serving most or all seaside resort towns, plus perhaps also some non-coastal tourist hotspots (ie. Devon, Norfolk Broads, Settle and Carlisle)? The train would leave wherever around 9-10am and then make the return from the seaside at 5-6pm and would run at the same time every day, 7 days a week from the May timetable change through to 31st August. It would not be timetabled or priced as a charter train, but just in the normal timetable with the standard fare applying. Reservations however would be compulsory to prevent overcrowding. To help impress passengers and help win them over, each train would be formed of mk1 or 2 coaching stock and with either a steam loco or an early heritage diesel loco pulling (so class 31/40/42/50/52/55). This of course means it won't be sustainable long term, but just for 3 months and with the full timetable not likely to be reinstated until Autumn or December, I feel it could work and with a major advertising campaign it might just be what the railway needs; to bring a bit of romance back to travelling by train and making it convenient for day trippers and people going on holiday to the seaside this Summer, before foreign holidays likely take off again next year. This would impress many and might just persuade them to start travelling by train regularly again, having been put off during the pandemic.

In terms of numbers, perhaps up to 40-50 sets of 6-7 coaches plus the loco should be enough to cover most routes.

Some direct routes run by the specials:

London Victoria to Brighton
Manchester Victoria to Southport
Liverpool to Blackpool North
Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough
Sheffield to Carlisle via Clitheroe and Ribblehead
Sheffield to Bridlington
Derby to Skegness
Crewe to Llandudno
Newcastle to Cleethorpes
Edinburgh to Wick
London Liverpool Street to Great Yarmouth
London Paddington to Penzance
Birmingham New Street to Newquay
London Paddington to Weston Super Mare
London Euston to Windermere

Not one service to any east or south coast destination between great Yarmouth and Penzance except Brighton.

After last year's pandemonium , the one place in the country that needs seaside specials is Bournemouth and places like Bogmor, Portsmouth,Weymouth let alone the likes of Paignton, Torquay and other Dorset and Devon hotspots. Then there's Margate, Clacton, Eastbourne, Hastings etc etc etc

But hey, at least Edinburgh to Wick are ok.

90% + people heading for a day out on the south coast just want to get to and from the beach as quick as possible, not interested in heritage traction or rolling stock.
Most heritage/charter operators I'd imagine also want to steer many daytrippers away from their services who, especially on their return are trailing loads of sand and often very dehydrated and drunk and would trash a heritage carriage in minutes.

Certain!y, there do need to be limited stop, preferably well pathed seaside specials and relief trains planned with stock and crew resourced ahead of time wherever possible.
 

JonathanH

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Certain!y, there do need to be limited stop, preferably well pathed seaside specials and relief trains planned with stock and crew resourced ahead of time wherever possible.
Best done by the incumbent operator using their existing rolling stock in the paths already in the timetable at its maximum length.

Tell me, how do you plan the right time to run these relief trains? If you can run one, when do you run it - how do you manage how many people use the relief train and how many use the normal service? Queuing?
 
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jon0844

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As said already, most people aren't going to want to go a long distance on some ancient rickety train that is being worshipped by trainspotters and enthusiasts.

That doesn't mean families don't like heritage trains - but it's more about shorter routes where people can go away for a weekend/week and go to that train for a short journey as an event in itself - not a method of transport to/from their holiday destination/weekend break.

It makes more sense for the smaller heritage operators too, as they can get more bums on seats by running multiple trips than one big one where people will quickly get bored or wonder why the journey is taking so much longer than a modern train.

Far more people will want a regular and frequent service for flexibility than queuing up for a special train, which I cannot see would be priced cheaper than an ordinary service. It would almost certainly be more expensive.
 

class26

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Can`t see how mk1 coaches will "impress" passengers. They were well knackered 30 years ago
Yes. Edinburgh depart around 04:00, an hour in Wick, return to Edinburgh around Midnight. I don't think you would sell many tickets for that.......

Edinburgh to Inverness is under 4 hours. If the train did not go to Thurso first Inverness to Wick would be no more than 4 hours. Let`s say a total of 8 hours each way. Leave Edinburgh at 06.00 arriving Wick at 14.00 Depart Wick 16.00 arriving back in Edinburgh at midnight. slightly better !
 
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jon0844

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Can`t see how mk1 coaches will "impress" passengers. They were well knackered 30 years ago and


Edinburgh to Inverness is under 4 hours. If the train did not go to Thurso first Inverness to Wick would be no more than 4 hours. Let`s say a total of 8 hours each way. Leave Edinburgh at 06.00 arriving Wick at 14.00 Depart Wick 16.00 arriving back in Edinburgh at midnight. slightly better !

Much better! :D
 

Aictos

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What about the Summer Saturday services that ScotRail, Great Western, East Midlands Railway etc operated in the past before Covid19, would it be worth running them still?

It be using existing rolling stock, train crew and paths or is that not viable anymore?
 

Bald Rick

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What about the Summer Saturday services that ScotRail, Great Western, East Midlands Railway etc operated in the past before Covid19, would it be worth running them still?

It be using existing rolling stock, train crew and paths or is that not viable anymore?

Some of those will be running. Timetable should be out next week.
 

theironroad

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Best done by the incumbent operator using their existing rolling stock in the paths already in the timetable at its maximum length.

Tell me, how do you plan the right time to run these relief trains? If you can run one, when do you run it - how do you manage how many people use the relief train and how many use the normal service? Queuing?

Agree should be incumbent and max length on existing trains.

Ideally it would be activated and planned in advance which for SWR would mean at 36hr stage. This would be weather forecast led, so when a good, beach weather sat/sun/bh, parts of school holidays is forecast then seaside special would be diagrammed for path, stock and crew. Optional whether uploaded to journey planners, but would be preferable.

Let's say that there is a regular timetable train booked to leave Waterloo at 0935 to Bournemouth stopping at working, Winchester, Southampton airport, Southampton central, Brokenhurst, Bournemouth. Takes about 1h50

A relief could be planned to run at 0932 either fast to Bournemouth, or pick up &/or crewing at Southampton as well, possibly Brokenhurst for new forest cyclists and walkers.

At Waterloo, passengers are diverted to the special. Passenger numbers monitored by station staff/guard and barriers closed when full. Rest go on booked 0935

Could be repeated at 0902, 1002, 1032 & 1102 if demand exists.

Similar set up on return in evening.

Could have a 1Zxx or 9Bxx headcode to signify to signallers
 

BayPaul

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Agree should be incumbent and max length on existing trains.

Ideally it would be activated and planned in advance which for SWR would mean at 36hr stage. This would be weather forecast led, so when a good, beach weather sat/sun/bh, parts of school holidays is forecast then seaside special would be diagrammed for path, stock and crew. Optional whether uploaded to journey planners, but would be preferable.

Let's say that there is a regular timetable train booked to leave Waterloo at 0935 to Bournemouth stopping at working, Winchester, Southampton airport, Southampton central, Brokenhurst, Bournemouth. Takes about 1h50

A relief could be planned to run at 0932 either fast to Bournemouth, or pick up &/or crewing at Southampton as well, possibly Brokenhurst for new forest cyclists and walkers.

At Waterloo, passengers are diverted to the special. Passenger numbers monitored by station staff/guard and barriers closed when full. Rest go on booked 0935

Could be repeated at 0902, 1002, 1032 & 1102 if demand exists.

Similar set up on return in evening.

Could have a 1Zxx or 9Bxx headcode to signify to signallers
Would it really be practical to run an additional train at 36hr notice? Why not just do the normal operation - i.e. timetable in additional services on summer Saturdays as required, and consider lengthening trains at short notice if the weather looks particularly good. Your suggested special running 3 minutes ahead in Waterloo, but skipping 4 stations before Brokenhurst would no doubt be buried in a whole series of conflicts before it got anywhere near the new forest.
 

zwk500

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Would it really be practical to run an additional train at 36hr notice? Why not just do the normal operation - i.e. timetable in additional services on summer Saturdays as required, and consider lengthening trains at short notice if the weather looks particularly good. Your suggested special running 3 minutes ahead in Waterloo, but skipping 4 stations before Brokenhurst would no doubt be buried in a whole series of conflicts before it got anywhere near the new forest.
It's perfectly possible to have Q paths in the timetable from the start, and decide whether or not to activate them nearer the time. You could even have a similar stopping pattern (unadvertised) and just decide which stops to call at on the day. 36hrs would be a bit late-notice for drivers, but 5 days might be workable.

However it's probably far easier and cheaper just to dynamically strengthen existing formations to 12-car when required.
Could have a 1Zxx or 9Bxx headcode to signify to signallers
Southern area has 1Yxx for special traffic staying within the area.
 
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