Allowed to buy tickets on the train - why?

[jednick]

My friend always asks me this question and I can never find a satisfying answer.

There are signs around my local station and on the trains themselves (run by West Midlands Railway) saying a passenger must but a ticket before they board the train, if that's possible.

So, if there's a ticket office open they can buy a ticket beforehand. If the ticket office is closed, they must buy a ticket from the ticket machine, assuming it's working. (Or a Permit to Travel ticket, if that's the only option available).

I can understand that if the ticket office is closed (or there isn't one) PLUS the ticket machine is not working (or there isn't one), then it would be acceptable to buy the ticket on the train.

So my question is, why on many occasions have I seen a passenger buy a ticket on the train when I know that there was an open ticket office and/or a ticket machine they could have bought a ticket from at the station which they boarded the train?

Usually, the conductor just sells them a ticket, no questions asked. Or, the conductor asks why didn't they buy a ticket beforehand and they always say "I didn't have time to buy one", and they get away with it.

Admittedly, I was on a West Midlands Railway service a few months ago, and they did actually fine everybody who hadn't bought a ticket beforehand; but that was a one-off in my experience.

A further question would be - why does the conductor even carry around a ticket machine on a train when it's a certainty that every single station that the train calls at either has a ticket office that's open and/or a ticket machine that's working?

Obviously, if it's impossible to buy a ticket at a certain station beforehand, then the only option is to but one on the train, but surely the conductor knows which stations that applies to.

I can only think that there's a possibility that a ticket office may close unexpectedly, or a ticket machine may break down, so that's why the conductor carries a ticket machine. But surely, they shouldn't be selling people tickets on the train based on the claim that the passenger "didn't have time to buy one"?

 

[Clip]

Generally they shouldnt do or if they do and are part of a penalty fare line then they should issue the ticket with a warning about the consequences if they get stopped by an RPI.

Most guards are not PF trained so they either let people get a free ride or sell them a ticket and the latter is probably the best course of action so the railway gets its money and possibly a bit of commission for the guard too

 

[northwichcat]

A conductor can refuse to sell discounted tickets if someone has an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding. With "I didn't have time" they do have to use discretion - it's not reasonable to refuse to offer someone the full range of tickets if they spent 10 minutes queuing and then boarded without a ticket when the trains only run every hour and a conductor who did that would be seen as a jobsworth. Not selling the full range used to be mean no railcard discounts and no off-peak tickets but now it can mean only selling you a single ticket to the station you are leaving the train at.

 

[jednick]

A conductor can refuse to sell discounted tickets if someone has an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding. With "I didn't have time" they do have to use discretion - it's not reasonable to refuse to offer someone the full range of tickets if they spent 10 minutes queuing and then boarded without a ticket when the trains only run every hour and a conductor who did that would be seen as a jobsworth. Not selling the full range used to be mean no railcard discounts and no off-peak tickets but now it can mean only selling you a single ticket to the station you are leaving the train at.

Thanks for your comment. But the West Midlands Railway "Penalty Fares" leaflet says you can't use the excuses that either you arrived late at the station or that the queue was too long.


https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co....kZGv9_0/penalty_fares_dl_leaflet_-_sept18.pdf

 

[scrapy]

My friend always asks me this question and I can never find a satisfying answer.

There are signs around my local station and on the trains themselves (run by West Midlands Railway) saying a passenger must but a ticket before they board the train, if that's possible.

So, if there's a ticket office open they can buy a ticket beforehand. If the ticket office is closed, they must buy a ticket from the ticket machine, assuming it's working. (Or a Permit to Travel ticket, if that's the only option available).

I can understand that if the ticket office is closed (or there isn't one) PLUS the ticket machine is not working (or there isn't one), then it would be acceptable to buy the ticket on the train.

So my question is, why on many occasions have I seen a passenger buy a ticket on the train when I know that there was an open ticket office and/or a ticket machine they could have bought a ticket from at the station which they boarded the train?

Usually, the conductor just sells them a ticket, no questions asked. Or, the conductor asks why didn't they buy a ticket beforehand and they always say "I didn't have time to buy one", and they get away with it.

Admittedly, I was on a West Midlands Railway service a few months ago, and they did actually fine everybody who hadn't bought a ticket beforehand; but that was a one-off in my experience.

A further question would be - why does the conductor even carry around a ticket machine on a train when it's a certainty that every single station that the train calls at either has a ticket office that's open and/or a ticket machine that's working?

Obviously, if it's impossible to buy a ticket at a certain station beforehand, then the only option is to but one on the train, but surely the conductor knows which stations that applies to.

I can only think that there's a possibility that a ticket office may close unexpectedly, or a ticket machine may break down, so that's why the conductor carries a ticket machine. But surely, they shouldn't be selling people tickets on the train based on the claim that the passenger "didn't have time to buy one"?

Under penalty fares rules only trained collectors are authorised to issue penalty fares. Conductors are not. If don't sell a ticket at all it's likely the railway won't get any revenue so a full priced ticket should be sold. The rules say you may get a penalty fares not you will. Some may argue a penalty fare warning or verbal advice should be given but as long as the penalty fares signage is compliant I'm not sure it's necessary.

 

[Jonfun]

I think it's Belgium where the trainbegeleider (Conductor) has a ticket machine which is linked in to the status of the ticket office and ticket machines, so if they're out of order you can buy at the normal rate on board, otherwise you pay the onboard rate, which is effectively a penalty fare. I think that's a good system.

 

[cuccir]

the West Midlands Railway "Penalty Fares" leaflet says you can't use the excuses that either you arrived late at the station or that the queue was too long

If you read the leaflet more carefully, it says that not showing up on time at the station is not an excuse - and this correct. But it's a bit vaguer on queues:

What if there’s a long queue at the Ticket Office?
This is the reason for not purchasing a ticket most frequently used by those with no intention of paying. It makes it impossible for us to distinguish a genuine from a dishonest case and a Penalty Fare will normally be issued. West Midlands Trains monitor queuing times at all of its stations in order to minimise waiting. Revenue Protection staff will call a central control office to verify that was no opportunity to purchase a ticket

This implies that a very lengthy queue can be an excuse. There's no legal definition as to what amounts as a 'reasonable' queue length but a lot of people on here would encourage anyone to challenge a penalty fare if queues were longer than the train's operator's aim in their passenger charter. Indeed in West Midland Railway's Passengers Charter it says:

Remember to arrive at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket if you have not already bought one in advance. Our aim is to make sure you do not have to queue more than five minutes at peak times or three minutes at any other time. We display details of these peak times at ticket offices. We will monitor our achievements of these queuing times as part of our continuous improvement programme. In specific situations where queueing times are not being achieved at a station, you can buy either a ticket en route or at your destination.

This is intentionally vague, but if a queue time was well in excess of that I think it would give justification for buying on board.

--
Edit:
For what it's worth though, I agree broadly with jednick. A better system would have tickets either: fully sold on board; or, outside of times of network disruption, not at all, with much better provision of ticket buying facilities at all stations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

My friend always asks me this question and I can never find a satisfying answer.

There are signs around my local station and on the trains themselves (run by West Midlands Railway) saying a passenger must but a ticket before they board the train, if that's possible.

So, if there's a ticket office open they can buy a ticket beforehand. If the ticket office is closed, they must buy a ticket from the ticket machine, assuming it's working. (Or a Permit to Travel ticket, if that's the only option available).

I can understand that if the ticket office is closed (or there isn't one) PLUS the ticket machine is not working (or there isn't one), then it would be acceptable to buy the ticket on the train.

This is all correct. If the payment method you wish to use is not accepted (e.g. the ticket office is closed, or there isn't one, and the ticket machine doesn't accept cash etc.) then equally that is valid reason for boarding without a ticket (provided they have obtained a Permit to Travel if the machine is available and working!).

So my question is, why on many occasions have I seen a passenger buy a ticket on the train when I know that there was an open ticket office and/or a ticket machine they could have bought a ticket from at the station which they boarded the train?

Because only Authorised Collectors may issue Penalty Fares. This is set down in The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. Some train companies train/designate some or all of their conductors to being Authorised Collectors. But West Midlands Trains is not one of those. There are far fewer Authorised Collectors than conductors, so it is much more likely that a passenger encounters, and that you see, a conductor selling a ticket onboard. The alternative is that they refuse to sell a ticket and instead take the passenger's details for prosecution, but that is very rare on West Midlands Trains.

Usually, the conductor just sells them a ticket, no questions asked. Or, the conductor asks why didn't they buy a ticket beforehand and they always say "I didn't have time to buy one", and they get away with it.

Some conductors would rather that the company collects some revenue (and they some commission!), especially from passengers who board and alight from unbarriered stations, rather than nothing at all. And some passengers would outright refuse to pay any kind of Penalty Fare, leaving the conductor in a tricky spot.

Admittedly, I was on a West Midlands Railway service a few months ago, and they did actually fine everybody who hadn't bought a ticket beforehand; but that was a one-off in my experience.

I rather suspect they didn't fine anyone - as, not being Judges in a Court, they cannot impose any kind of fine! However, it is entirely possible that ticketless passengers were issued with Penalty Fares (in some cases because they had no reason not to have bought a ticket, and in other cases they may have been issued with a Penalty Fare despite having a good reason not to have bought a ticket).

A further question would be - why does the conductor even carry around a ticket machine on a train when it's a certainty that every single station that the train calls at either has a ticket office that's open and/or a ticket machine that's working?

That may be the case in relation to all the stations the train calls at (certainly during part of running day), but the railway is an interconnected network and hence it is entirely possible and plausible for passengers to have boarded at an unstaffed station outside that specific line, without any opportunity to pay, and for the conductor on their previous train not to have come through selling tickets. They may then have had insufficient time at their interchange station to buy a ticket (without missing their connection). It might sound farfetched but it is a scenario that arises quite frequently.

And again, as above, it is always better for the company to collect something rather than nothing! The cost of issuing the conductors with ticket machines, as well as maintaining and restocking them, is surely far less than the fares that otherwise would not be collected!

 

[Haywain]

why does the conductor even carry around a ticket machine on a train when it's a certainty that every single station that the train calls at either has a ticket office that's open and/or a ticket machine that's working?

Aside from what has been written above, there are some passengers who are permitted to buy tickets on the train, even in peanlty fare areas. These include disabled customers who may not be able to buy from facilities at stations for various reasons.

 

[sprunt]

I think it's Belgium where the trainbegeleider (Conductor) has a ticket machine which is linked in to the status of the ticket office and ticket machines, so if they're out of order you can buy at the normal rate on board, otherwise you pay the onboard rate, which is effectively a penalty fare. I think that's a good system.

I agree that it's a good system, but given thefracturednatureofourrailwaysystem I bet it's much easier to implement in Belgium, where one rail company is responsible for all the ticket machines than it would be here - a passenger on a TPE train might have boarded at a Northern-run station or vice versa (or any number of possible combinations really), and a TPE conductor's machine might not be able to communicate with the Northern ticket machine network.

 

[Esker-pades]

The best thing to do is to take a picture of the defective ticket machine/long ticket office queue. That's usually enough to sway most conductors. If that's still a problem then you have pictures with which to request a refund of the difference in tickets (or dispute the penalty fare) to the TOC afterwards.

 

[Brummigrant]

For similar reasons to why you can purchase your ticket at New Street in order to get out of the barriers I guess...

The announcements at WMR stations do say "purchase at the first available opportunity", but I guess for the amount of people who fare evade on routes where there are no gate lines, they'd rather get some revenue?

I think the plan is to bring gate lines to as many stations as possible soon, with Swift being the main payment method for local journeys. Of course, gate lines require staff, which requires money.

 

[rumoto]

Aside from what has been written above, there are some passengers who are permitted to buy tickets on the train, even in peanlty fare areas. These include disabled customers who may not be able to buy from facilities at stations for various reasons.

And also you have the case of ticket machines that don't sell Groupsave tickets (especially on GWR stations): https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-groupsave.139250/

On those cases, if you want to take a train after the ticket office has closed (and the ticket barriers are opened), you have no other option than to buy the Groupsave ticket on the train. I know because it has happened to me twice (once in Gloucester and another one in Cheltenham).