Alledged Voyager ticket

[Anon Mouse]

Yesterday I checked a passengers ticket and he produced a well worn Super Saver Return from Falkirk Stations to Chafford Hundred with 'LACON' discount. The ticket was marked with the date 17/04/11 and had two rubbed out thermal stamps. The guy was travelling from York to Leeds and claimed that he had broke his journey at York and that his ticket was a Voyager ticket and perfectly valid. He said the LACON was the same price as a YP (he had a YP in his possesion).

Upon checking my machine, the YP fare was about £19 more expensive, and as far as I am aware there is no such thing as a Voyager ticket. Besides the validity code of the ticket states that if a overnight break of journey occurs the journey must be completed before 12.00 the following day.

I suspected fraud and the feel of the ticket felt like a dried peice of card that had spent the night outside!

As he insisted it was a 'Voyager' ticket I wonder what other people in a Guard or TI role make of it?

 

[island]

Never heard of a Voyager ticket. I don't think there's any valid LACON for that journey. Withdraw ticket, issue passenger zero fare excess for journey being made, and obtain name/address for a TIR.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Never heard of a Voyager ticket. I don't think there's any valid LACON for that journey. Withdraw ticket, issue passenger zero fare excess for journey being made, and obtain name/address for a TIR.

Thats what I wish I had of done, however I withdrew it and tried to sell him a new ticket, which he refused

I am convinced there is no such thing as a Voyager ticket, and I would imagine that the ticket would indeed be marked 'Voyager'.

 

[bengolding]

There definitely was a Voyager ticket just after Virgin XC introduced the Voyagers several years back. It was a promotional paper 'Voyager Discovery' ticket, which ISTR offered excellent value in First Class from Reading to New St!

Since you withdrew their ticket so they couldn't continue their journey with it down south and they refused to buy another, what happened?

 

[Anon Mouse]

There definitely was a Voyager ticket just after Virgin XC introduced the Voyagers several years back. It was a promotional paper 'Voyager Discovery' ticket, which ISTR offered excellent value in First Class from Reading to New St!

Since you withdrew their ticket so they couldn't continue their journey with it down south and they refused to buy another, what happened?

He started shouting at me, so I walked away then when he got to his destination he demanded his ticket back saying I had stolen it and followed me demanding my name. The last I saw he was walking away while I called control for advice, so I passed the ticket onto the dispatcher to pass onto the gateline for them to TI him.

 

[yorkie]

Since you withdrew their ticket so they couldn't continue their journey with it down south and they refused to buy another, what happened?

The correct procedure is to withdraw the ticket and issue a free of charge replacement ticket, and submit a ticket irregularity form so the matter can be investigated.

This is confirmed by ferret on another thread...

Yes, if you submit a TI report for an issue with a ticket, then you should withdraw the original tickets and issue a zero-fare excess so that the person can complete their journey.

... and I've had confirmed to me by several guards.

However some do not adhere to the procedures for some reason (lack of training, perhaps).

 

[Anon Mouse]

The correct procedure is to withdraw the ticket and issue a free of charge replacement ticket, and submit a ticket irregularity form so the matter can be investigated.

Yes, that is the correct procedure (and wish I had of done so), but I had insufficent time to do such (not an issuie of poor training, I do loads of TIR's per year). Unfortunatly sometimes you get these people at the wrong time! Two dats previously I got somebody with not only and ticket that had been used from his origin station at least 6 times, he had doctored his YP. After getting 5 false postcodes, two false addresses and attempted false name he did a runner at the next stop

 

[bengolding]

Presumably they were travelling on the return part of a Super or Off peak Return as the outward leg would only have been valid on the 17th or until midday on the 18th?

Seems bizarre they got a local area concession ticket discount in the first place for a journey that covers many councils! One must wonder why the previous ticket checks didn't spot this, given East Coast's reputation for thorough checks having listened to their lectures on ticket validity before departure.

 

[rail-britain]

The ticket was marked with the date 17/04/11

Probably an amended ticket dated 17/04/01 or 17/04/10, but more likely 2001 when these tickets were in valid circulation

 

[Ferret]

The correct procedure is to withdraw the ticket and issue a free of charge replacement ticket, and submit a ticket irregularity form so the matter can be investigated.

And most importantly get name and address details!

There's no such thing now as a 'voyager ticket'. And I thought LACON stood for Local Area Concessionary (fare) so how Falkirk-Chafford Hundred fits into that category I have no idea. Sounds very dubious to me!

 

[Anon Mouse]

Presumably they were travelling on the return part of a Super or Off peak Return as the outward leg would only have been valid on the 17th or until midday on the 18th?

Seems bizarre they got a local area concession ticket discount in the first place for a journey that covers many councils! One must wonder why the previous ticket checks didn't spot this, given East Coast's reputation for thorough checks having listened to their lectures on ticket validity before departure.

It was the return portion however according to the restriction code, the return journey's overnight break of journey would have invalidated his ticket by midday on the 18th. I could not find a LACON on the advantex for his journey. Very strange....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably an amended ticket dated 17/04/2001 (assuming it now showed 2011)

Hmmm the plot thickens
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And most importantly get name and address details!

There's no such thing now as a 'voyager ticket'. And I thought LACON stood for Local Area Concessionary (fare) so how Falkirk-Chafford Hundred fits into that category I have no idea. Sounds very dubious to me!

that is exactly my thoughts, I really wish I had of took his details but in the circumstances it was not practicle

 

[Ferret]

that is exactly my thoughts, I really wish I had of took his details but in the circumstances it was not practicle

Have you any way of following up with the barrier staff to find out what happened? I'd sure be interested to know. It'll be something I'll be watching out for too.....

 

[Anon Mouse]

Have you any way of following up with the barrier staff to find out what happened? I'd sure be interested to know. It'll be something I'll be watching out for too.....

I could try asking, but I would'nt be surprised if he gave some excuse to the barrier staff and got through!

 

[Ferret]

I could try asking, but I would'nt be surprised if he gave some excuse to the barrier staff and got through!

Neither would I. I wouldn't pay half of the barrier staff I encounter with rusty washers. They may as well not be there.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This kinda thing makes me mad!

As an honest law abiding, but admitedly railcard holding passenger and enthusiast I feel people like this give joh public a bad name.

Its hard eöugh with all the many restrictions, fare types etc and whats a nightmare for us I know wil be an even worse one for staff. there are undoubtedly too many tikets, restrictions and more importantly ever changing local discounts but my experience in general is has been good in as much as staff have been patient and when I once made a booby on a consessionary fare but was unable at the time to pay the difference, FSR were fantastic.

Sadly however when I have had a few jobsworths, its been really bad. I can understand that the daily attempts to get free this and discounted that must ware staff down and make them a little suspicious but to be downrite confrontational and in one instance threatening towards a passenger aint on! Now I'm not staff bashing or indeed defending anyone trying to break the rules but I'm just saying that people who do this kind of trick and as a result turn some industry staff into over suspicious unprofessional people make me vvv cross!

If ever unsure, I check with onboard or station staff ASAP! Anything else I should do?

 

[yorkie]

Yes, that is the correct procedure (and wish I had of done so), but I had insufficent time to do such (not an issuie of poor training, I do loads of TIR's per year). Unfortunatly sometimes you get these people at the wrong time! Two dats previously I got somebody with not only and ticket that had been used from his origin station at least 6 times, he had doctored his YP. After getting 5 false postcodes, two false addresses and attempted false name he did a runner at the next stop

Sorry, yes, I didn't mean to suggest you didn't know that, but some staff don't. It seems reasonable for you to ask station barrier staff to do it if you didn't have time, however I do have concerns about the competency of many staff who work at barriers....

Neither would I. I wouldn't pay half of the barrier staff I encounter with rusty washers. They may as well not be there.

.... well, quite! But the Government thinks barriers are wonderful and the solution to everything! (This is a politically neutral statement, the current Government are merely continuing policies implemented by Labour) Interestingly they have commissioned a report that appears destined to suggest reducing staffing levels at stations, that can only mean not manning barriers (or reducing their hours of operation) as you can't easily remove the other station staff, which means leaving them open. So the Government have basically wasted £millions of taxpayers money on ludicrous barrier schemes, they could have spent less money on having more on-board staff who are actually knowledgeable to check tickets. The times barriers would be really useful is when drunks are travelling late at night, as they could be denied entry to the railway quite easily (byelaw offence to be drunk on the railway), yet they are left open at those times!:roll:

 

[tony_mac]

If ever unsure, I check with onboard or station staff ASAP! Anything else I should do?

Record your conversation?

'The bloke on the platform said....' does not appear to be widely accepted!

 

[Anon Mouse]

Record your conversation?

'The bloke on the platform said....' does not appear to be widely accepted!

On Sunday "that bloke on the platform" who was telling people they could get CDR's on the train at a staffed station was a random passenger wearing a white shirt and black waistcoat

 

[IanXC]

I wonder whether the choice of 2 long station names "FALKIRK STATIONS" to "CHAFFORD HUNDRED" was covering up for the original name(/s) on the tickets having been altered - and these conveniently long names were there to cover up where other name(/s) had been removed and overwritten.

York would seem to conveniently not have barriers. I suppose its hard to know whether the marked price was plausible for the journey?

 

[Anon Mouse]

I wonder whether the choice of 2 long station names "FALKIRK STATIONS" to "CHAFFORD HUNDRED" was covering up for the original name(/s) on the tickets having been altered - and these conveniently long names were there to cover up where other name(/s) had been removed and overwritten.

York would seem to conveniently not have barriers. I suppose its hard to know whether the marked price was plausible for the journey?

The fare seemed plausable, just not the YP fare if that makes sense. Apart from having two rubbed out stamps it didnt seem to be doctored, just his story and the 'Voyager' that he was talking about seemed very odd

 

[Mojo]

A bit puzzled as to what LACON tickets would work from Falkirk Stations to Chafford Hundred led me to play about with Avantix for a bit. I got bored after a bit, but found Strathclyde Concession to work, but it it much more than the Y-P fare so cannot have been that; has anyone discovered what it is?

Maybe it could have even been a fake ticket; but if you're in the business of running a fake ticket factory why would you choose to produce something so battered, surely you'd want to produce something which looks in pristine condition? But maybe that's why I'm not a fraudster!

As an aside, given the huge variety of ticket machines, printers, ticket stock and even different layouts on the same stock, it must be pretty hard to check that tickets are genuine. Have to say when I've been shown fakes in the past (when being told what to look out for) the errors have been quite obvious (eg. ''form'' instead of ''from'' or ''FEB'' instead of ''FBY'') but then I've been told what they are and it's probably not that obvious when checking. Similarly with other ticket types; I could legitimately present a ticket issued on LU ''pink'' stock to a CrossCountry Train Manager; I know there's a photo of one in the Manual, but would one really know what to look for in order to check its validity?

 

[yorkie]

...Have to say when I've been shown fakes in the past (when being told what to look out for) the errors have been quite obvious (eg. ''form'' instead of ''from'' or ''FEB'' instead of ''FBY'')...

Indeed, and we both know that in one case the person who correctly identified the fake ticket was told by a senior manager that the ticket was not fake and that he should not have withdrawn it!

 

[boing_uk]

To be fair, with a reasonable printer, photoshop and similar enough paper stock, it should be fairly simple to create a fake ticket, I would've thought? Certainly good enough to pass the majority of checks.

The sooner ticket barriers are rolled out across more stations the better IMO.

 

[yorkie]

To be fair, with a reasonable printer, photoshop and similar enough paper stock, it should be fairly simple to create a fake ticket, I would've thought? Certainly good enough to pass the majority of checks.

The sooner ticket barriers are rolled out across more stations the better IMO.

Why? As Ferret has already said, barriers are ineffective (and he would know!)

Barriers, and a lack of on board staff, make it very easy for people who are running scams.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Indeed, and we both know that in one case the person who correctly identified the fake ticket was told by a senior manager that the ticket was not fake and that he should not have withdrawn it!

no offence to any that may be hanging around here, but why do managers run our railways these days? If told not to withdraw what was a fake, what insentive is there to check next time? Appologies if i've miss understood.

 

[yorkie]

no offence to any that may be hanging around here, but why do managers run our railways these days? If told not to withdraw what was a fake, what incentive is there to check next time? Apologies if I’ve miss understood.

Well, exactly. It may be possible to discuss this further at the London meal if you are able to attend. I can't really say anything more about that particular case. Unfortunately not all managers are knowledgeable, open minded, approachable, understandable and good at managing. Of course, they should be, but not all are. Of course, this is just one example, and for every bad manager there must be several good ones, I am sure! The same as in almost any position...

 

[Blindtraveler]

Why? As Ferret has already said, barriers are ineffective (and he would know!)

Barriers, and a lack of on board staff, make it very easy for people who are running scams.

more onboard staff, i'll second that! Worth noting again the majoritty of current ones do a grand job!

One guy in particular from East Coasts Aberdeen base is brill at his job and is always helpful! If you get a train with Peter Simpson in charge, your in good hands.

 

[Mojo]

no offence to any that may be hanging around here, but why do managers run our railways these days? If told not to withdraw what was a fake, what insentive is there to check next time? Appologies if i've miss understood.

A number of messages were put in weekly/monthly updates (which are sent round to staff) to advise them of the large number of fake tickets, all of which are printed on RSP stock. The action of withdrawing a fake ticket was correct, but there was a disagreement over whether the ticket was actually fake or not (it was obvious to me that it was fake).

 

[bengolding]

Maybe this was a print-at-home ticket, but not in the official sense!

An interesting recent press release from the BTP about someone who produced fake season tickets worth £23,000. What's worrying is how many years it went unnoticed for, but this is automatic ticket gates-unfriendly Virgin Trains we're talking about, where the occasional manual barrier check can't read magnetic stripes to thwart such scams!

http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Medi...HOUSANDS-OF-POUNDS-FROM-THE-RAILWAY-1444.aspx

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well, exactly. It may be possible to discuss this further at the London meal if you are able to attend. I can't really say anything more about that particular case. Unfortunately not all managers are knowledgeable, open minded, approachable, understandable and good at managing. Of course, they should be, but not all are. Of course, this is just one example, and for every bad manager there must be several good ones, I am sure! The same as in almost any position...

agreed! And some use there title to appear clever when there not. As someone who has in the main had bad luck with his bosses since starting work I worry that i'm too cinical on this but its certainly never made my life easy having no support or motivation to do my job well.

Would certainly welcome further discussion sometime perhaps