All Stations except St Johns

[frodshamfella]

This was a common announcement when I used to commute from Bexleyheath to London. In fact it would seem in the 80s that hardly any services seem to stop at this station on the SE suburban routes. I then learnt the Hayes service did call at St Johns, otherwise to me it seems a marooned halt between Lewisham and New Cross.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2022 ==

Actually perhaps this should be under stations, I've put it in the wrong place maybe !

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In fact it would seem in the 80s that hardly any services seem to stop at this station on the SE suburban routes.

Anything to do with the closure of the fast line (island platform) at St. Johns in the 1970s?

 

[frodshamfella]

Anything to do with the closure of the fast line (island platform) at St. Johns in the 1970s?

I don't know if it was ever more than an island platform tbh ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don't know if it was ever more than an island platform tbh ?

Believe there used to be two island platforms at St. John's, the one that's still there, and the other that went in the 1970s.

I may be muddying the waters somewhat though, as the island platform (that was demolished) in the 1970s wasn't on the line through Lewisham to Bexleyheath and beyond.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[contrex]

In 1895 there were three island platforms at St Johns.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In 1895 there were three island platforms at St Johns.

As seems to be confirmed by contemporary OS maps (see link below) although I doubt that anyone on the forum will have heard the announcements made back then!

Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

When was the original single track Tanners Hill “fly down” first brought into use? Would it have ever resulted in a situation where certain up trains unexpectedly bypassed St Johns, but the down equivalents still called?

 

[yorksrob]

I used to get the Hayes line on odd occasions in the 1990's, and the Charing Cross trains always seemed to miss it out.

 

[Mike99]

I think it was always one of the Lewisham to New Cross services that was destined to call at St John's, I was a regular, travelling on the South East London Routes, especially from Hither Green and Grove Park and it always felt like bad luck to be on a train that stopped there.

 

[mmh]

I used to get the Hayes line on odd occasions in the 1990's, and the Charing Cross trains always seemed to miss it out.

This was the case in the 2010s too. I lived on the Hayes line but have never been on a train that stopped at St John's. In fact, in commute hours it was rare to get a train that stopped at Lewisham, they took the avoiding line and were fast to London Bridge.

 

[station_road]

For much of the 80s, Cannon Street didn't have off peak services (except a shuttle to London Bridge on weekdays) so all trains went to Charing Cross - all of the SE suburban lines had a half hourly service, and it was just the Hayes trains that stopped at St Johns, even though other trains passed through the platforms without stopping.

In 1986, there were trains every 5 minutes through platform 4 at London Bridge, with the three Dartford routes, Hayes, Orpington and a semi fast train via Lewisham/Woolwich to Gillingham repeating every half hour - the Gillingham train was the only one that called at Lewisham but not New Cross.

St Johns had no service at all at weekends (neither did Cannon Street) - the frequency of SE suburban routes is unrecognisable since then

 

[Roger1973]

I remember southern trains stopping at St Johns being a rarity - think it only had a half hourly service off-peak, I can't remember which of the many services through Lewisham did call there.

There's a 1969 photo showing the two island platforms here. I think the second platform may have been removed during the track re-alignments and re-signalling that happened in (I think) 1976

When was the original single track Tanners Hill “fly down” first brought into use? Would it have ever resulted in a situation where certain up trains unexpectedly bypassed St Johns, but the down equivalents still called?

I think it was part of the work in the 1930s when the Southern Railway connected the former Greenwich Park branch (or part of it) to the former SER lines at Lewisham. (edit - see post 19)

I don't think any trains would have 'unexpectedly' used the fly-down instead of calling at the station (except perhaps in emergency), although from my early commuting days in the late 80s, a train not scheduled to call at St Johns might be routed that way one day, and via one of the low level lines another, depending on circumstances. And I think it was reversible by then.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the other island platform was removed in connection with the link to the Nunhead line being brought into use (to form the Lewisham flyover).

This was done at the time of the London Bridge resignalling in the 1970's.

 

[rapmastaj]

Despite the relative lack of trains it was still a useful service. Back in the mid-90s my primary school class often took the train from St John's to Farningham Road in Kent - not the simplest of journeys - for visits to the nearby Horton Kirby Field Centre. I have no idea if they still do so now, but it must be fairly unusual for school trips to use the train instead of a coach.

 

[yorksrob]

Despite the relative lack of trains it was still a useful service. Back in the mid-90s my primary school class often took the train from St John's to Farningham Road in Kent - not the simplest of journeys - for visits to the nearby Horton Kirby Field Centre. I have no idea if they still do so now, but it must be fairly unusual for school trips to use the train instead of a coach.

I wish my schools used the train for school trips, rather than the vom-com coaches that were the norm !

 

[DustyBin]

Does much call at St. Johns now? Some Hayes services do but I’m not sure how frequently?

I think it was always one of the Lewisham to New Cross services that was destined to call at St John's, I was a regular, travelling on the South East London Routes, especially from Hither Green and Grove Park and it always felt like bad luck to be on a train that stopped there.

I can relate to that feeling even now!

 

[Esker-pades]

Does much call at St. Johns now? Some Hayes services do but I’m not sure how frequently?



I can relate to that feeling even now!

Pre-COVID it was 8tph (Hayes, Slade Green via Bexleyheath, same via Sidcup, Orpington). I think it's 6tph now.

Despite the relative lack of trains it was still a useful service. Back in the mid-90s my primary school class often took the train from St John's to Farningham Road in Kent - not the simplest of journeys - for visits to the nearby Horton Kirby Field Centre. I have no idea if they still do so now, but it must be fairly unusual for school trips to use the train instead of a coach.

I think I know exactly which school you're referring to, and they started doing coaches by the early 00s.

 

[Timmyd]

I remember the announcement at London Bridge, in the days of very plummy announcements on the Southern. Every train seemed to be followed by ‘Please note, this train does not call at St. John’s’!

 

[Roger1973]

I believe the other island platform was removed in connection with the link to the Nunhead line being brought into use (to form the Lewisham flyover).

This was done at the time of the London Bridge resignalling in the 1970's.

The Lewisham fly-over, allowing trains to run from Lewisham to Nunhead goes back to the 1930s or thereabouts.

But I've had a look at the NLS historic map archive (which I probably should have done yesterday) has 1951 large scale OS map - this shows (what became) the fly-down as a siding accessed from the London end, and not connected to the Lewisham - Nunhead line, so does seem probable that it was introduced in the mid 1970s. I'm not sure where I got the idea it had been there earlier from, but it was probably wrong.

The 1897 OS map shows three island platforms.

 

[Western Sunset]

Despite the relative lack of trains it was still a useful service. Back in the mid-90s my primary school class often took the train from St John's to Farningham Road in Kent - not the simplest of journeys - for visits to the nearby Horton Kirby Field Centre. I have no idea if they still do so now, but it must be fairly unusual for school trips to use the train instead of a coach.

When I taught at a school in Lee, we often walked to Lee station and took the train to Charing Cross. Very convenient for the National Gallery etc. We also went to Horton Kirby, but went by coach on those occasions.

 

[rapmastaj]

I think I know exactly which school you're referring to, and they started doing coaches by the early 00s.

Yes if you know the area you can guess the school easily enough That's a shame they stopped going by train! It was a tricky journey though, with a frustrating wait at St John's while many fast trains zipped past, 2 changes if I remember correctly, and quite a long walk at the far end.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2022 ==

When I taught at a school in Lee, we often walked to Lee station and took the train to Charing Cross. Very convenient for the National Gallery etc. We also went to Horton Kirby, but went by coach on those occasions.

Good to hear that other schools took the the train too, at least for some journeys!

 

[swt_passenger]

The Lewisham fly-over, allowing trains to run from Lewisham to Nunhead goes back to the 1930s or thereabouts.

But I've had a look at the NLS historic map archive (which I probably should have done yesterday) has 1951 large scale OS map - this shows (what became) the fly-down as a siding accessed from the London end, and not connected to the Lewisham - Nunhead line, so does seem probable that it was introduced in the mid 1970s. I'm not sure where I got the idea it had been there earlier from, but it was probably wrong.

The 1897 OS map shows three island platforms.

I found a couple of London Reconnections articles about the Tanners Hill flydown history, they suggest it was built in 1975. It reads as if when the more recent doubling was planned local residents objections were fuelled by the way BR had ignored local residents during the 1970s project.
part 1 of 2 is here:

Tanners Hill Flydown - Part 1 - London Reconnections

The leading source for independent news and analysis about transport in London and beyond. Award-winning coverage of transport infrastructure and politics alongside stories about the history of the Capital's transport networks.

www.londonreconnections.com

 

[Dave91131]

Pre-COVID it was 8tph (Hayes, Slade Green via Bexleyheath, same via Sidcup, Orpington). I think it's 6tph now.

6tph as you state, not the 8 I thought - the Cannon Street circulars only serve Lewisham once per journey, not twice as I thought for some reason.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

The prerecorded announcements at New Cross used to amuse me. The Sidcup and Bexleyheath line trains were "not calling at St Johns" whilst the Orpington trains were "fast to Lewisham"

 

[frodshamfella]

In the 80s when I worked in the west end , I'd always try for a Bexleyheath to Charing Cross fast from Kidbrooke to Waterloo East. This was best it go, with speed . It would normally take the flypast where you could see St John's from above.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It’s amazing how things have changed in the last forty or so years with St. John’s.

It was pretty much a peak hour service - if that! Im honestly amazed it’s still open, plus Cannon Street being only a off peak shuttle, though I do believe they started another off peak service with the Plumstead shuttles via Greenwich.

As I recall it was a regular stop for the Hayes trains in the 1990s onwards, at first for Charing Cross then was later switched to Cannon Street except on Sundays in the 2000s when it would be all stations CX-Hayes, very frustrating at times especially since weekdays it was an express run from London Bridge to Ladywell.

Today it’s only the Woolwich line services that still skip St. John’s and New Cross, all other metro routes via Lewisham (Bexleyheath, Sidcup, Grove Park & Hayes routes) call there every half hour.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s amazing how things have changed in the last forty or so years with St. John’s.

It was pretty much a peak hour service - if that! Im honestly amazed it’s still open, plus Cannon Street being only a off peak shuttle, though I do believe they started another off peak service with the Plumstead shuttles via Greenwich.

As I recall it was a regular stop for the Hayes trains in the 1990s onwards, at first for Charing Cross then was later switched to Cannon Street except on Sundays in the 2000s when it would be all stations CX-Hayes, very frustrating at times especially since weekdays it was an express run from London Bridge to Ladywell.

Today it’s only the Woolwich line services that still skip St. John’s and New Cross, all other metro routes via Lewisham (Bexleyheath, Sidcup, Grove Park & Hayes routes) call there every half hour.

Its impressive that it's managed to hold onto its platform canopy.

 

[frodshamfella]

It’s amazing how things have changed in the last forty or so years with St. John’s.

It was pretty much a peak hour service - if that! Im honestly amazed it’s still open, plus Cannon Street being only a off peak shuttle, though I do believe they started another off peak service with the Plumstead shuttles via Greenwich.

As I recall it was a regular stop for the Hayes trains in the 1990s onwards, at first for Charing Cross then was later switched to Cannon Street except on Sundays in the 2000s when it would be all stations CX-Hayes, very frustrating at times especially since weekdays it was an express run from London Bridge to Ladywell.

Today it’s only the Woolwich line services that still skip St. John’s and New Cross, all other metro routes via Lewisham (Bexleyheath, Sidcup, Grove Park & Hayes routes) call there every half hour.

I do recall it only being the Hayes train in the 80s, which called. Now its a much more generous , looks as a general rule, Sidcup line , Hayes line, peaks Cannon Street via Bexleyheath, and Orpington line Cannon Streets.

 

[Edsmith]

From memory it was only the half hourly Hayes service that called at St John's off peak years ago, always seemed a bit odd that so many trains passed the island platform without stopping.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Its impressive that it's managed to hold onto its platform canopy.

It really is like a time warp! the station has always been a bit of an anomaly for the Southern region, it’s more like a halt, until recently it had no off peak service, and now it has 6-8tph off peak.

I remember a few years ago looking through a prospectus for Lewisham College on their transport bit they said that the nearest stations were Lewisham (BR & DLR) and Elverson Road (DLR) with no mention of St. John’s even though that’s basically across the road from the college!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2022 ==

I do recall it only being the Hayes train in the 80s, which called. Now its a much more generous , looks as a general rule, Sidcup line , Hayes line, peaks Cannon Street via Bexleyheath, and Orpington line Cannon Streets.

Yes I think since covid the Bexleyheath trains now skip St. John’s