All line rover to become time restricted

[Metroland]

ATOC have declared war on their customers, this is just a part of the battle they are fighting against us. It's just one insult they have given us, out of many. We need to fight back somehow.

A national passenger strike, until they get costs under control or forced nationalisation?

Probably wouldn't be too difficult to organise these days.

 

[theblackwatch]

That was my point. Compare that to the cost of normal full price tickets and you see the disparity.

I am surprised its lasted this long.

I thought your point was it hadn't gone up much (which I showed wasn't the case). Mind you, it hasn't gone up so much compared to some other fares. An Open Return (or whatever they want to dress it up as now, by giving it a different name) from York to London has gone up from £108 to £223 in just 12 years.

 

[Old Timer]

I thought your point was it hadn't gone up much (which I showed wasn't the case). Mind you, it hasn't gone up so much compared to some other fares. An Open Return (or whatever they want to dress it up as now, by giving it a different name) from York to London has gone up from £108 to £223 in just 12 years.

My point was in comparison to standard full fares it has not gone up by much. If we took the ratio of the ALR to full fare ticket costs under BR and compared them to now I wonder what the adjusted rate of the ALR would be ?

 

[TTI]

When the prices jumped 15% in 2009, there was a email campaign against ATOC to the relevant director (at ATOC). Think it was a female director IIRC.

Her replies were "cut & paste" re-iterating replies trying to justify the unjustifiable.

What every reader on here needs to do is directly email the relevant director David Mapp, Commercial Director either via the general email address of "enquiry@atoc.org" or his own presumably, "david.mapp@atoc.org" (??).

 

[theblackwatch]

My point was in comparison to standard full fares it has not gone up by much. If we took the ratio of the ALR to full fare ticket costs under BR and compared them to now I wonder what the adjusted rate of the ALR would be ?

I think it's the full fare tickets that have gone up too much, not the all-line that hasn't gone up enough! Many walk on fares are ridiculously expensive now - if I were to go to London tomorrow from here and needed to be there before 10am, it would actually be cheaper for me to go to Leeds Bradford and fly to Gatwick then go into Lodnon from there than catch the train.

 

[Old Timer]

I think it's the full fare tickets that have gone up too much, not the all-line that hasn't gone up enough! Many walk on fares are ridiculously expensive now - if I were to go to London tomorrow from here and needed to be there before 10am, it would actually be cheaper for me to go to Leeds Bradford and fly to Gatwick then go into Lodnon from there than catch the train.

I would suggest that this is because the large numbers of cheap tickets are set too low and that the only way the true costs can be recovered is by having high full fare prices where a TOC can be reasonably comfortable knowing that it is to a degree an inflexible market. That said I don't want to get into a debate on ticket prices, but I agree that the walk on prices are too high.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If it's any help, the e-mails for the DfT itself are all firstname.lastname@dft.gsi.gov.uk and yes, that format does include the Transport Secretary's e-address...

 

[Lampshade]

I initially thought "does it really matter?" but then I realised that if everyone had that attitude then of course ATOC et al are going to **** all over us

ATOC should be either scrapped or have its power severely limited, what we have is essentially an anti-passenger union; the members of which all come together in a club of gentlemen's agreements to make life as difficult as possible and to screw as much money out of the passenger as they can (I refer to ATOC forcing GC to charge the 2x£15 supplements as they thought the fare was too cheap).

If I was Transport Minister I'd force ATOC to disband, if there was any industrial action from the TOCs as a result, strip them of their franchise. Although I highly doubt any Transport Minister from any party would do that, they wouldn't have the balls given the amount of money the TOCs are paying in premiums.

End rant.

 

[Old Timer]

I initially thought "does it really matter?" but then I realised that if everyone had that attitude then of course ATOC et al are going to **** all over us

ATOC should be either scrapped or have its power severely limited, what we have is essentially an anti-passenger union; the members of which all come together in a club of gentlemen's agreements to make life as difficult as possible and to screw as much money out of the passenger as they can (I refer to ATOC forcing GC to charge the 2x£15 supplements as they thought the fare was too cheap).

If I was Transport Minister I'd force ATOC to disband, if there was any industrial action from the TOCs as a result, strip them of their franchise. Although I highly doubt any Transport Minister from any party would do that, they wouldn't have the balls given the amount of money the TOCs are paying in premiums.

End rant.

Considered writing to the new MoT ?

There will shortly be a different breeze running through the DfT as the Railways are not to be treated as generating cash for general revenue use in the way that Labour used them.

 

[theblackwatch]

There will shortly be a different breeze running through the DfT as the Railways are not to be treated as generating cash for general revenue use in the way that Labour used them.

I hope you are right but I am not going to hold my breath!

 

[Old Timer]

I hope you are right but I am not going to hold my breath!

There is a long way to go but I am very buoyant at what I have seen and heard.

 

[yorkie]

What every reader on here needs to do is directly email the relevant director David Mapp, Commercial Director either via the general email address of "enquiry@atoc.org" or his own presumably, "david.mapp@atoc.org" (??).

David Mapp has issues.

He once said that people should buy CDs instead of Saver tickets.

Can you imagine a representative of the BPI saying that customers should travel by train instead of buying discounted CDs?

David Mapp appears to treat customers with utter contempt. Therefore he fits into ATOC perfectly... :roll:

ATOC cannot be disbanded, however they should not be acting as regulators and they should not have responsibility for changing ticket terms, setting prices, administering the Routeing Guide, etc...

ATOC broke the law for several years by not consulting the DfT on the Routeing Guide. How can this association, which has no respect for the law, be expected to act honourably? It's a war, and it's a war we have to ensure we win. If someone pays £95 for York - Birmingham between 0744 and 0925 then that person is a casualty, they're defeated. But someone armed with the knowledge on this forum who pays £37.50 for that same journey, is a winner. But splitting tickets doesn't work for Rovers, and not everyone can 'beat the system' as many passengers won't know about this forum and won't know how to get Avantix to find out the best fares, and won't have the time to constantly search the ticket booking sites for the best combinations. There's also no way to beat ATOC when they wreck Rovers.

But fight ATOC we must. On this, and many other, issues.

Spoof websites need to be created. The masses need educating. Campaigns need to be fought.

ATOC think that not many people will care about the ALR product. Many of their customers (who they despise so much) don't care, that is true, but they are irritating people who have the power to ridicule ATOC and to educate the masses. That's a big risk for ATOC to take.

And yes, I know ATOC will be reading this. And I know they're scared of us.

 

[Broken Viking]

Just a quick thought on the issue whilst I'm passing...But what about employing Force Majeure to solve the AToC problem? Certainly seems to work for a lot of pressure groups...So I can't see why it couldn't work for us too!

ATOC cannot be disbanded...

Whyever not? They've already got a record of extortion that runs longer than the Mississippi (That - Funnily enough - Neither the Police nor the DTI have chosen to act on yet! :roll and it's about time they were booted out and a passenger based body was put in it's place...

...However they should not be acting as regulators and they should not have responsibility for changing ticket terms, setting prices, administering the Routeing Guide, etc...

Now THAT sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with!

 

[Ivo]

But fight ATOC we must. On this, and many other, issues.

Spoof websites need to be created. The masses need educating. Campaigns need to be fought.

ATOC think that not many people will care about the ALR product. Many of their customers (who they despise so much) don't care, that is true, but they are irritating people who have the power to ridicule ATOC and to educate the masses. That's a big risk for ATOC to take.

And yes, I know ATOC will be reading this. And I know they're scared of us.

Fighting talk from yorkie! I like!

ATOC may very well be scared of the members of this forum. We are clearly more educated than even they realise. We know more insider information than they are most likely aware. And we are the people that will knowingly and legally exploit every loophole beset upon them. And most importantly, we have outside sources. Even something as simplistic as telling your spouse to avoid buying an XC-ONLY ticket is depriving ATOC of the funds it and its member associations do not deserve.

But alas, there will always be the poor sucker who does not understand. A friend on another forum I visit became worried when we met in Birmingham recently because he thought that to get the best fare he would have to change train at the end of each ticket's validity. That would involve changing at Taunton, Bristol TM and Cheltenham Spa, when through trains do of course operate. It is this person, the Average Joe Public [note I said "Public" and not "Patrick"! - only some of you will understand this], that needs to be enlightened.

I have often thought about asking FGW if they would be interested in having someone [i.e. me] run an official ticket sales operation on Saturday mornings at Oldfield Park or Keynsham. But besides the fact that everyone and his dog would know the answer ("No"), there is also the slight issue that their revenue from the station would decrease as the common passenger is shown cheaper alternatives to a basic return to Cardiff (you can split almost anywhere!). We could quite easily force the revenue down in this manner...

But if we were to do that, who is to say that they won't force prices up?

And as for the ALR itself, there really is no excuse. If they are that bothered about it, why not just introduce a peak version with a slightly (2%?) higher cost than the current - and an off-peak one along the lines of the proposal at the price they put forward?

 

[Broken Viking]

Thinking of the intense workings that I did on my ALR last year, I'd be severely hampered by a Not before 10:00 restriction. From what I recall, the first part of the day (Between typical 05:10 start of service and 09:59) saw me clocking up about 300+ miles...And that's if I wasn't using a Sleeper from the previous evening!

For me personally, the idea of "Peak" and "Off Peak" ALRs is uncomfortable at best and downright objectionable at the worst. If they split the ALR up into time bands, how long will it be before they introduce the Super Off-Peak ALR, Anytime ALR, Standard Open ALR, Advance ALR, Super Advance ALR and Super Dooper Bank Account Pooper ALR* to go with it? hock::roll:ad:
* - Only available on Virgin West Coast!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have seen a few ALR's on the trains in recent months, far more than previously. I even saw a 14 day First Class one the other day - being used by some business type.

I have checked the "Next NFM" section of the fares manual, which is valid 23rd May to 5th September, and it says:

All Line Rail Rover

The All-Line Rail Rover ticket allows unlimited travel on for 7 or 14 consecutive days, subject to the details shown below. It does not include the charge for seat reservations, where payable.

Product name


Validity


Adult


Child


Railcard













(see footnote)

All-Line Rail Rover (Standard)


7 days


£430·00


£284.00


£284.00*

All-Line Rail Rover (First Class)


7 days


£650·00


£429·00


£429·00**
















All-Line Rail Rover (Standard)


14 days


£650·00


£429·00


£429·00*

All-Line Rail Rover (First Class)


14 days


£990·00


£653·00


£653.00**






*


Railcard discount available to 16-25, Senior and Disabled Persons Railcard holders only.

**


Railcard discount available to Senior and Disabled Persons Railcard holders only.

Discounts

Child - 34%

Senior Railcard, 16-25 Railcard (Standard accommodation only), Disabled Persons Railcard - 34%

Holders of Staff Travel Cards, Privilege Ticket Identity Cards & TOC New Entrant Cards - 75% / child 88% (£2·00 flat fare does not apply).
Validity

Unlimited travel on all scheduled National Rail services at any time.
Also valid on

* Caledonian Sleeper seated coach (reservations compulsory) or in a berth with payment of the appropriate supplement.
* Ffestiniog Railway

Not valid on

* Eurostar
* Heathrow Express
* Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow
* London Underground
* Docklands Light Railway
* London Tramlink
* Heritage and private railways (except Ffestiniog Railway)
* Shipping services

This entry is managed by:
ATOC
last updated on:
26/04/10

So at the moment it seems ok.

Having said that, they have been known to amend the validity of Rovers inbetween the normal fare setting rounds and editions of the Fares Manual (especially Northern controlled ones) which has caught me out before when I've told someone their rover isn't valid as I had what I thought was the correctly dated map -only to discover they had amended the map during the currency of the relevant Fares Manual.

 

[metrocammel]

I have seen a few ALR's on the trains in recent months, far more than previously. I even saw a 14 day First Class one the other day - being used by some business type

Unfortunately, I think this is the underlying reason for the increase. I know at least one guard who sells All-Line tickets to his passengers if their weekly season ticket worked out at a higher price. This is fair in my opinion, but in the eyes of the revenue departments, they are losing out. Commuters, especially long-distance 'businessmen-types', are generally quite shrewd, so I imagine more ALRs get sold for this reason than their 'intended' leisure travel purposes.

The glaringly obvious answer in my books would be to adopt the German style 'national railcard', with the '100% discount' for those that pay the highest amount. But again, TOCs may argue this will decrease revenue- Is this the case in Germany?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Tin hat on here, let me be devil's advocate...

I can see their point, given the relative prices of standard anytime returns and the ALR. It feels like a very low priced product to me, for a week of unrestricted travel with a value much more than the price paid. As a TOC, I would be uncomfortable with someone taking one of my peak seats into London when I see very little of the revenue from that ALR. We have a privatised commercial railway, that is the reality these days.

In some ways the fact that the ticket has remained at a comparitively reasonable price to compared to other tickets has created this situation. The (un)fairness of some of the standard open returns is another thread in itself, but if the supply and demand economics make them viable and people will pay them, then that is the world we live in and the railways are no different.

In addition, it is not totally unreasonable to want to restrict the ability to get into and out of some of the London termini at peak hours given the demand, and the price of many season tickets. Have people misunderstood? This isn't a blanket ban on travel before 10am, merely you can't leave or arrive in some London termini or Birmingham on XC before 10am. You can still take the 06:44 out of Newcastle (arr 10:07 at BHM) for example, and you can still use Waterloo, Liverpool Street etc.

I do think however that they are missing a commercial trick by not offering an Anytime All Line Rover which can be priced at a fair premium (say 25%?) to the standard semi-restricted ALR, and allocate the revenue accordingly.

 

[flymo]

Remember, Lord Adonis went on a weeks tour of Britain recently using a 7 day ALR. To be honest I bet a lot of people never even knew such a thing existed and only after reading about his trip did it become more widely known the the general public so is it any wonder there has been more seen recently.

Just my 2p worth

 

[garnon]

WNXX now reporting that there is some back-tracking happening on the part of ATOC following interest shown by the BBC and other interested parties.

I hope so, but dare say another proce increase will follow instead.

 

[CarterUSM]

WNXX now reporting that there is some back-tracking happening on the part of ATOC following interest shown by the BBC and other interested parties.

I hope so, but dare say another proce increase will follow instead.

What is this sites original source for this announcement or story?

 

[HORNIMANS]

Does this mean that you would be unable to leave Euston to Glasgow until after 1000 or just to the stations mentioned, and what about travelling from say Bristol at 0700 to Newcastle on XC through train. just to many problems Ican see in the future. We must resist this!

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes - Twitter sources now suggesting this has been done away with.

 

[rail-britain]

Post above still shows the same price for a 14 day First Class ALR £990?!?!

I've been looking at how that would have affected my plans last year
On most days I worked around arriving in London on the sleepers and then starting from there
The simple solution in some cases appears to be make the previous day end in London and start from Scotland
However, by travelling after 10:00 means no breakfast and as a First Class ticket holder that was the main point of travelling between 08:00 and 10:00

Monday 22 June 2009 :
07:43 London Euston - Birmingham New Street : VT
09:42 Birmingham New Street - Bristol Temple Meads : XC
Meaning I would have to start this day from London Paddington instead

Wednesday 24 June 2009 :
07:55 London St Pancras - Sheffield : EMT
Meaning the out and back trip to Nottingham is no longer possible

Friday 26 June 2009 :
08:04 London Kings Cross - York : GC
This day is completely ruined, and would probably have to be replaced by travelling on the Kings Cross - Inverness

Monday 29 June 2009:
09:40 London Euston - Manchester Piccadilly : VT
This isn't so bad as this is just a day trip to Manchester

Tuesday 30 June 2009 :
08:40 London Euston - Crewe : VT
10:49 Crewe - Holyhead : VT
This day is ruined, so would now simply be a day trip to Liverpool

Thursday 02 July 2009 :
08:30 London Euston - Glasgow Central : VT
This day is ruined, no longer possible to do three single trips
This would have to either start at Glasgow or be shortened to Preston
Ironically, Friday 03 July 2009 started at Glasgow, so that day would have to be changed

I had already been considering only doing a 7 day this year, and that almost makes it certain now
Equally, the number of trips by sleeper reduces from four to just two, as I can easily swap the London arrivals into journeys starting at Glasgow

 

[the sniper]

WNXX now reporting that there is some back-tracking happening on the part of ATOC following interest shown by the BBC and other interested parties.

Railway Eye probably played its part too, that's read by many industry insiders. And he reads us.

Yes - Twitter sources now suggesting this has been done away with.

Hurrah! My summer ALR plans are not scuppered then, hopefully.

 

[mrcheek]

Im starting to think that somebodys trolling here.

 

[yorkie]

Im starting to think that somebodys trolling here.

To be fair it wasn't here, it was originally posted on wnxx and then posted here in good faith. I also got texts about it, again sent in good faith.

Not sure if everyone here knows what wnxx forum is, but basically it's aimed at people who are interested in withdrawn/stored/heritage locos, there are a significant number of experienced railways who went 'bashing' on locos in the 70s/80s who are now in high-up positions on the railway and they will have access to information. I'm not saying that guarantees that the information on this occasion was correct, but I can certainly believe that it quite feasible that it was correct.

It would not surprise me if people within ATOC are (or were) attempting to restrict the ALR but they are now backtracking.

ATOC are not squeaky clean, they do make blunders, they say and do things against their customers that no other trade association would have the cheek or even inclination to.

 

[Metroland]

The glaringly obvious answer in my books would be to adopt the German style 'national railcard', with the '100% discount' for those that pay the highest amount. But again, TOCs may argue this will decrease revenue- Is this the case in Germany?

I'll see what I can find out, but I think revenue increased:

The two-part tariff is a mixture of an up-front flat payment and subsequent discounts spread out over a fixed period of time. The best-known example of this is the BahnCard from the German National Railroad Company Deutsche Bahn AG, which has been a huge success for many years. (In the following example US currency is used for simplicity). Currently the price per mile using the train is 24¢. The BahnCard is sold for a flat fee of $220 which earns the user the right for a 50% discount on all train tickets for one year. Subsequently the price per mile is reduced to 12¢. The breakeven point (total savings = $220 card fee) is at 1,833 miles. However the more the card is used
the lower the cost per mile becomes as the $220 is distributed over more miles. Once spent the $220 for the card are sunk cost and there is a strong incentive to maximize its use as this means saving more money. Over 3.1million cards are sold per year, revenues are over 1.3billion USD and profits have risen dramatically. Another success factor is that the Deutsche Bahn dramatically broadened its customer base.

http://members.pricingsociety.com/articles/Using-Pricing-to-Increase-Customer-Loyalty.pdf

In 2007 there were 4.01 million BahnCard holders in Germany. [1] More than half of the passenger revenue of Deutsche Bahn comes from tickets sold to BahnCard holders.[1]

The main motivation for introducing the BahnCard was to increase competitiveness against the automobile. Prior to the BahnCard, Deutsche Bahn priced a trip between any two points in direct proportion to the distance travelled; this pricing structure proved uncompetitive with driving. [2] The card allowed a two-dimensional pricing schedule, which consists of card price (a fixed cost), and ticket price (a variable cost). Once a passenger has bought a card, its price becomes a sunk cost and this makes the train more like the automobile, which is also characterised by high fixed costs. The decision whether to take a car or train for a particular journey depends mostly on the marginal price per kilometer, not on the total cost. [3] The effect of the BahnCard was to shift the marginal cost of the train journey below that of the car journey for many customers. [2]
[edit] History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BahnCard

The main problem I see with into intro here, is crowded peak time travel (in Germany very long, often double deck trains are the norm, they don't mess around with 158s on interurban lines) but I see little reason for not introducing something for the off peak.

One thing about these sorts of cards is they increase customer loyalty, which the TOCs are hopeless on the whole with their very variable pricing. 5 million people buying (say) £1000 off peak cards all lines cards actually equals all current rail revenue.