All Line Railrover and Plusbus

[d1672]

Hi all,

I hope that the answer to this is as easy as the question.

I will be buying a 14 day ALR in October basing myself in Manchester. I will be travelling to a different place everyday. Can I buy a Plusbus for my destination each day e.g Mon - Plymouth, Tues - Fareham, WEd - Norwich you get the idea.

Also can I buy 2 x weekly plusbus for my stay in Manchester ?

T.

 

[bb21]

Officially, I don't think so as your ticket does not have an origin or destination, but staff have been known to issue them.

So, no, not as straight forward an answer as you would probably have liked.

 

[Haywain]

Hi all,

I hope that the answer to this is as easy as the question.

I will be buying a 14 day ALR in October basing myself in Manchester. I will be travelling to a different place everyday. Can I buy a Plusbus for my destination each day e.g Mon - Plymouth, Tues - Fareham, WEd - Norwich you get the idea.

Also can I buy 2 x weekly plusbus for my stay in Manchester ?

T.

I would say yes, as PlusBus is available to rail staff using travel facilities, so there isn't actually a requirement to have a ticket stating a specific origin and destination.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I concur with bb21.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I purchase a plus bus ticket with NSE card and haven't even used the train, so the answer to your question will more than likely be yes you can buy plus bus

Mind you will you get value for money with this rover ticket,

 

[Hadders]

It might be wise to 'sanitise' the post above in view of the possibility of the clerk being identified as this shouldn't be done. There can't be too many clerks working at that station.

 

[Tuppenny Tube]

It shouldn't be done but it seems to be fairly common. I work for a bus company & we became aware that many of our 'customers' who presented PlusBus tickets were unable to present an accompanying valid rail ticket when challenged. A few covert purchases from local stations proved that many would simply sell a PlusBus ticket if that's what they were asked for, no proof of possession of a valid rail ticket was required.
We now ask our staff to check that a rail ticket, valid for the day of travel, can be produced whenever a PlusBus ticket is presented, if not the ticket's not considered valid.
I would suggest that it would be left to the driver's discretion if a Rover ticket was presented, as long as it looked like a ticket shown in the briefing notes then there should be no problem, but our drivers are not trained on identifying rail tickets, they have enough with the numerous passes & permits available.

 

[atraindriver]

We now ask our staff to check that a rail ticket, valid for the day of travel, can be produced whenever a PlusBus ticket is presented, if not the ticket's not considered valid.

The PlusBus terms and conditions state that "It is not necessary to be in possession of a valid train ticket in order to use a PLUSBUS ticket for travel on a participating bus or tram operators services."
See http://www.plusbus.info/sites/default/files/pdfs/PLUSBUS Terms & Conditions v2.pdf - you'll find it towards the top of the second page.

The reason the Ts&Cs state that is because is it perfectly possible and permissible for a passenger to buy a single rail ticket and a +BUS for the destination, and for the rail ticket to then be retained at the end of their rail journey (either by a ticket gate or at a manual ticket check), thus leaving the passenger with no rail ticket to proffer as evidence of a rail journey.

Even if someone has got a valid rail ticket, who's to say that you or your staff would recognise it? They're not all pieces of orange card.
As an example, do you know what any of the staff passes issued by your local TOC(s) look like?

 

[Haywain]

To clarify my earlier post on this, it is not necessary to hold a point to point ticket to take advantage of PlusBus, as staff passes etc are perfectly acceptable. Therefore there is no reason to why the OP cannot buy PlusBus for the places they intend to visit. However, a 7-day PlusBus can only be purchased in conjunction with a season ticket, and as an ALR is not a season ticket, the OP would have to buy daily PlusBus tickets for Manchester.

 

[Welshman]

It shouldn't be done but it seems to be fairly common. I work for a bus company & we became aware that many of our 'customers' who presented PlusBus tickets were unable to present an accompanying valid rail ticket when challenged. A few covert purchases from local stations proved that many would simply sell a PlusBus ticket if that's what they were asked for, no proof of possession of a valid rail ticket was required.
We now ask our staff to check that a rail ticket, valid for the day of travel, can be produced whenever a PlusBus ticket is presented, if not the ticket's not considered valid.

Welcome to the forum, Tuppenny Tube.

My experience of using PlusBus tickets in West Yorkshire is that the driver is busy enough already without having to check the validity of rail tickets!

I wonder, too, how easy it would be to check [even if the driver had the time and the inclination], on buses with assault screens where the driver does not have the opportunity of taking the ticket for a closer examination?

Anyway, why should bus drivers need to check? Whilst I certainly do not condone the abuse of PlusBus, surely the bus company receives a credit for accepting the ticket, whether the passenger has a valid rail ticket or not?

 

[atraindriver]

Anyway, why should bus drivers need to check? Whilst I certainly do not condone the abuse of PlusBus, surely the bus company receives a credit for accepting the ticket, whether the passenger has a valid rail ticket or not?

The bus driver doesn't need to check, for the simple reason that there's no need to hold a valid rail ticket to use Plusbus!
See the Ts&Cs as linked to in my previous post.

 

[Welshman]

The bus driver doesn't need to check, for the simple reason that there's no need to hold a valid rail ticket to use Plusbus!
See the Ts&Cs as linked to in my previous post.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear!
I did read and appreciate your previous post.
I just simply meant to add that if even that were not the case, why should they check anyway?

 

[extendedpaul]

I regularly use Plusbus at my destination and in most cases no longer have the rail ticket as the barrier has retained it.

Should I be requesting to keep the ticket in case I board a bus operated by "Tuppeny Tube" 's bus company ?

I've never been asked for a rail ticket. Plus Bus is pretty well established now and most bus drivers just glance at it and nod

 

[IanD]

I've never had to show a rail ticket on the bus but rail staff at Milton Keynes Central always refuse to sell a plusbus unless you already have/buy a ticket.

 

[d1672]

Hi,

I have only once been asked for a rail ticket when using Plusbus and that was on a "Reays of Wigton" bus operating a service in Carlisle a couple of years ago.
The driver was very polite about it, although I was somewhat surprised by his request.

I just showed my retired boxes and all was well.

Thomas

 

[Tuppenny Tube]

The PlusBus terms and conditions state that "It is not necessary to be in possession of a valid train ticket in order to use a PLUSBUS ticket for travel on a participating bus or tram operators services."
See http://www.plusbus.info/sites/default/files/pdfs/PLUSBUS Terms & Conditions v2.pdf - you'll find it towards the top of the second page.

I do know what the terms & conditions say; they also say that a PlusBus ticket is only valid if purchased with a valid rail ticket and, locally, that is clearly not the case as our investigations proved. Quite how you prove that such a ticket is NOT valid is where the difficulty lies however.
Would the TOCs be prepared to sell discounted rail tickets (ie those with a Railcard) without having to produce the card at the point of sale or whilst on the journey ? I think not, as they would not want the resultant revenue loss !
Whilst I agree that many drivers only give the ticket a cursory check, it was our drivers that highlighted the issue due to the proliferation of such tickets and the potential revenue loss (bear in mind that PlusBus prices undercut many operators day tickets by upto 50%). The request for the customer to produce a valid rail ticket is local initiative to deter such abuse and recently most customers have been able to produce such tickets but drivers are expected to judge each case on its merits.

Incidentally, the biggest problem with PlusBus now is customers travelling outside of the boundaries, many seem to think if the ticket says 'Bus' they can go wherever they want from whatever town is shown on the ticket.

As an example, do you know what any of the staff passes issued by your local TOC(s) look like?

Yes, as we accept them (unofficially) for local journeys around town ! 3 different TOCs to be precise.

 

[SussexMan]

Would the TOCs be prepared to sell discounted rail tickets (ie those with a Railcard) without having to produce the card at the point of sale....

There is no need for me to produce my railcard when I purchase my train ticket. I buy just about all my tickets online and show my railcard to no one when purchasing the ticket.

I do know what the terms & conditions say...

...The request for the customer to produce a valid rail ticket is local initiative to deter such abuse...

So you know that the Terms and Conditions don't require passengers to produce a rail ticket but as a local initiative you require people to produce one? I don't understand, can you explain more? If a passenger doesn't have a rail ticket, what do you do?

 

[IanD]

Yes, as we accept them (unofficially) for local journeys around town ! 3 different TOCs to be precise.

That's probably a bigger loss of revenue than a few people using plusbus tickets without a rail ticket. Better report it to your bosses.

And do the TOCs let you travel for free in return? Probably not, so why let their staff travel for free?

 

[atraindriver]

I do know what the terms & conditions say

With respect, if you know what the terms and conditions are, why are you ignoring them?

Yes, as we accept them (unofficially) for local journeys around town ! 3 different TOCs to be precise.

So you know what 3 different TOC staff passes look like. What about all the rest? What about all the things which are valid as travel tickets but look nothing like a ticket?
(I'm thinking of things like medallions, letter passes, Authority to Travel slips and so on - all of these will be perfectly valid to authorise purchase of a plusbus ticket)

 

[Greenback]

If the T&C's state that it is not necessary to actually be in possession of a rail ticket to use a Plusbus ticket, then passengers should not be asked to produce one, and should certainly not be denied travel if they can't present it to the driver.

There can be no confusion or debate about this. Case closed.

 

[atraindriver]

If the T&C's state that it is not necessary to actually be in possession of a rail ticket to use a Plusbus ticket, then passengers should not be asked to produce one, and should certainly not be denied travel if they can't present it to the driver.

There can be no confusion or debate about this. Case closed.

Agreed.

Unfortunately at least one bus company clearly disagrees.

 

[Greenback]

While I imagine that the majority of people with a Plusbus ticket will also, like myself, be in possession of some sort of rail ticket, I can envisage a time when I might have a single ticket and a Plusbus if I am going to visit my parents and will be getting a lift home. I would be very annoyed if I were denied bus travel simply because my rail ticket had been eaten by the barrier.

I assume that the only reason the bus company in question hasn't been inundated with complaints is either because the made up rules are not being enforced as Tuppenny Tube thinks they are, or because very few people have been unable to produce a train ticket when asked. Perhaps it's a bit of both.

Of course, Plusbus tickets are only valid up to the appropriate boundary, so I applaud any efforts the bus company is making in that direction.

 

[Tuppenny Tube]

Exceptional circumstances require exceptional measures unfortunately and, as usual the only loser is the innocent customer.
When a flow of regular customers switches from the bus operators own tickets to PlusBus in a matter of weeks it arouses suspicions, when one of them, questioned by a driver (out of curiosity !) tells him they buy them from the local station because they are cheaper than the bus company's own tickets (a weekly being about 40% cheaper) it is a cause for concern. That was when we investigated how easy it was to buy a PlusBus without a rail ticket and it was as simple as: "I'd like a X PlusBus please" with the response "That will be £3.00 please", there was no mention of a train ticket.
The problem, as I've tried to point out on here, is that there is no way, certainly for bus operators, to police this. Whilst numerous people on here keep referring to us 'breaking' the terms & conditions not one person has commented on the basic problem of the TOCs booking office staff breaking the primary condition of not selling a PlusBus without a valid rail ticket. If that was adhered to then the problem would not exist. A simple change to the ticket format would also help, something like 'sold with ticket No. XXXXXXX' printed at the time of purchase would prove the holder had rail ticket at that time.
Since we took this action the number of local PlusBus tickets seen has reduced & our own ticket sales have increased, without any complaints I might add.
I also note that another post refers to buying PlusBus without a rail ticket so the problem is not unique to us.
Sussexman points out that he does not need to show his railcard when buying online (!) I just hope does if 'buying over the counter' as that is enshrined in all of the Railcard Terms & conditions, or is that another case of Booking office staff ignoring the rules.
Case closed

 

[Mojo]

So what do the drivers and Inspectors do with customers that are unable to present a ticket, perhaps because:

1. It was a single that has been taken by the gateline
2. They are a season ticket holder and don't have the train ticket with them because they are not travelling that day
3. They are due to collect their train ticket later in the day

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not wishing to put words in peoples mouths, but.....

So what do the drivers and Inspectors do with customers that are unable to present a ticket, perhaps because:

1. It was a single that has been taken by the gateline....

To be fair to Tuppenny tube, (s)he did say "but drivers are expected to judge each case on its merits", though if the station has no ticket barrier they might suspect something is up.

2. They are a season ticket holder and don't have the train ticket with them because they are not travelling that day....

As above, each case could be considered differently, thus a season ticket holder might be okay even without the season on them. I personally wouldn't think it unreasonable to carry the rail ticket with the plusbus anyway, but then I do tend to carry my priv pass around on my travels even when I know there's a very good chance I won't need it.

3. They are due to collect their train ticket later in the day

If they were due to collect their ticket later, how did they get the Plusbus?

I realise the driver might not be in a position to do much about this legally, but, if reports of too much of this sort of thing get back to the bus company, isn't it more likely that they would stop accepting them because of revenue issues. This would put the Plusbus scheme in doubt.

 

[Mojo]

If they were due to collect their ticket later, how did they get the Plusbus?

They might be travelling as part of a group and are collecting their tickets from the group organiser before boarding the train. Alternatively, I've bought a Plusbus presenting the ticket that I was not intending on using to travel on the date of the Plusbus, and then went on to collect my tickets at a later date.

 

[tony6499]

It shouldn't be done but it seems to be fairly common. I work for a bus company & we became aware that many of our 'customers' who presented PlusBus tickets were unable to present an accompanying valid rail ticket when challenged. A few covert purchases from local stations proved that many would simply sell a PlusBus ticket if that's what they were asked for, no proof of possession of a valid rail ticket was required.
We now ask our staff to check that a rail ticket, valid for the day of travel, can be produced whenever a PlusBus ticket is presented, if not the ticket's not considered valid.
I would suggest that it would be left to the driver's discretion if a Rover ticket was presented, as long as it looked like a ticket shown in the briefing notes then there should be no problem, but our drivers are not trained on identifying rail tickets, they have enough with the numerous passes & permits available.

I think your bus companies managers need to brief drivers correctly about Plus Bus and the need to hold a rail ticket

 

[maniacmartin]

I think the argument about gatelines eating tickets is the strongest. A lot of passengers wouldn't think to make sure they retained the rail ticket.

Regarding purchasing, every time that I have bought a plusbus ticket the clerk has asked to see the rail ticket. Of course there's nothing to stop someone going back with the same rail ticket to buy another plusbus for a friend.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

They might be travelling as part of a group and are collecting their tickets from the group organiser before boarding the train....

Plausible, not likely to be very common though.

....Alternatively, I've bought a Plusbus presenting the ticket that I was not intending on using to travel on the date of the Plusbus, and then went on to collect my tickets at a later date.

The clerk should only issue a Plusbus for the day you are travelling by rail. I'm sure there is a term for what you have described.

 

[atraindriver]

The problem, as I've tried to point out on here, is that there is no way, certainly for bus operators, to police this. Whilst numerous people on here keep referring to us 'breaking' the terms & conditions not one person has commented on the basic problem of the TOCs booking office staff breaking the primary condition of not selling a PlusBus without a valid rail ticket. If that was adhered to then the problem would not exist.

I was always taught that two wrongs don't make a right.

The correct thing for your company to have done if you have evidence of Plusbus tickets being sold to people who don't hold rail tickets (rather than hearsay) is to take it up with the TOC which runs the relevant ticket office, not to penalise passengers on the assumption that they must all be dishonest or to place the onus of checking purchase validity on your drivers who have clearly not been given sufficient training to recognise the full range of rail tickets.

If the TOC refuse to take any action to deal with your concerns, then I'd suggest the best course of action would simply be for your company to withdraw from the Plusbus scheme at that location.

Case closed

Sorry, but the only case that has been closed is the case that your company is in breach of the Terms & Conditions of a type of intermodal ticket it has chosen* to accept.
(* no operator is forced to accept Plusbus)

Trying to justify it the way you are doing suggests to me that you're well aware that your company is in the wrong but aren't willing to accept that.