Alighting short on Advance Single

[Ben Rhydding]

It`s in the public domain. See posts 5 and 28. The Internal Industry Guidance is evidently known externally.

Nobody has suggested that it has been superseded let alone produced evidence to that effect. The consensus is that it`s still in the Internal Industry Guidance. My point, and I promise that this is my last post on the subject, is that a published easement is part of the contract.

 

[Haywain]

My point, and I promise that this is my last post on the subject, is that a published easement is part of the contract.

It is not part of the contract if it is not published at the time the contract is formed.

 

[tomoufc]

Thanks for the sound advice all round! Given that my objective is to transfer from train to tram, perhaps a nostalgic visit to check that The Salisbury is still standing at the foot of the Oxford Road steps, followed by a free bus ride to Deansgate/Castlefield, would be best.....

The Salisbury's still going strong, and remains one of the best and friendliest pubs in the city centre

 

[Llandudno]

The Salisbury's still going strong, and remains one of the best and friendliest pubs in the city centre

Top pint of Old Peculier in there!

The new micropub on the station approach road to Oxford Road station is well worth a visit too!

 

[NorthWestRover]

Certainly is.

 

[styles]

Though it does seem Northern are quite picky about it unlike most other TOCs who seem not to care that much. Given that it'd just be to save about 10 minutes' walk I'm actually not sure I would do it in this case despite the above guidance.

Staff at Luton Airport Parkway used to be quite strict on it when people had bought Advance fares to London St Pancras through Megatrain then alighted short for the airport. Megatrain didn't sell tickets to the airport parkway station, so passengers (often poor students) would get caught out.

Always seemed like a totally anti-passenger measure to me. If you don't want passengers buying advance fares for further than they need because they're cheaper, then don't make it cheaper to travel further on advance fares.

But it is what it is.

 

[Deerfold]

Staff at Luton Airport Parkway used to be quite strict on it when people had bought Advance fares to London St Pancras through Megatrain then alighted short for the airport. Megatrain didn't sell tickets to the airport parkway station, so passengers (often poor students) would get caught out.

Always seemed like a totally anti-passenger measure to me. If you don't want passengers buying advance fares for further than they need because they're cheaper, then don't make it cheaper to travel further on advance fares.

But it is what it is.

Megatrain were *very* explicit when buying tickets that they weren't valid to any other station.

 

[Sleepy]

Greater Anglia Advance tickets to Liverpool St. seem to be accepted for ending journeys at Stratford without issue given barriers are manned by Tfl staff who aren't known for much National Rail ticket tolerance - maybe at that location they are used to people inserting reservations etc. and will wave through any orange cardboard ?

 

[styles]

Megatrain were *very* explicit when buying tickets that they weren't valid to any other station.

That doesn't make it any more rational.

 

[John R]

That doesn't make it any more rational.

Why would someone buy such a ticket to a destination 30 miles further on than they want to go, unless it was to undercut the price available on a national rail operator? And at that point, the guideline kicks in that they were trying to get a lower fare, hence should not be allowed. And given the comment that Megatrain apparently made it very clear that it was point to point only, I don't think anyone should have had any justification to complain.

 

[AlterEgo]

Megatrain were *very* explicit when buying tickets that they weren't valid to any other station.

Agreed. What is less well known is that they didn't qualify for any delay compensation and the passenger waived that right when buying one.

 

[Kite159]

Staff at Luton Airport Parkway used to be quite strict on it when people had bought Advance fares to London St Pancras through Megatrain then alighted short for the airport. Megatrain didn't sell tickets to the airport parkway station, so passengers (often poor students) would get caught out.

Always seemed like a totally anti-passenger measure to me. If you don't want passengers buying advance fares for further than they need because they're cheaper, then don't make it cheaper to travel further on advance fares.

But it is what it is.

Similar to when Northern first introduced advance fares, they were more restricted in availability and generally were for routes where Northern had competition with other operators. I.e. you could buy an advance for Manchester to Crewe, but not Manchester to Sandbach

 

[styles]

Why would someone buy such a ticket to a destination 30 miles further on than they want to go, unless it was to undercut the price available on a national rail operator? And at that point, the guideline kicks in that they were trying to get a lower fare, hence should not be allowed. And given the comment that Megatrain apparently made it very clear that it was point to point only, I don't think anyone should have had any justification to complain.

Because it's cheaper?

Passengers shouldn't have to do the mental gymnastics of justifying such a ridiculous fare system, especially when it's literally the same train as would be booked onto through the then EMT website.

Yes the passenger was made aware of the stupid terms so being pulled up on it is technically fair game, but it doesn't make them any less stupid.

 

[Sonic1234]

This shows what a precious thing the ungated unstaffed station is. You can then make your own decision if its a "stupid rule" or not.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Although starting/finishing short with an Advance ticket is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the policy of the Rail industry is that no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare).

This seems quite difficult to define though.

If the £2.65 Lancaster to Oxford Road was available and a £2.65 Lancaster to Deansgate was also available, clearly no intent to avoid a higher fare.

What if the former was available on booking, but the latter had sold out and the Deansgate ticket was now £3.65? £10.65? What if no advances were left and the £26.70 Any Permitted was all that was available?

How can anyone know on the day and time of travel how the two fares would have compared when booked? Especially not some hired goons from Carlisle Security, that's for sure!

...Real example...

Tomorrow I will use the full length* of a Birmingham Stations to Letchworth advance single (Chiltern and connections) for a rather spectacularly good £12.50. I will change onto the 17:39 KGX-LET. It did occur to me that that leg alone would be a £21.70 Anytime Day Single.

So if I bought the £12.50 ticket and started short and only used the Kings Cross to Letchworth leg, very difficult to detect of course, but is that now clear intent to avoid a higher fare?

I would say certainly yes, but where is the threshold? Does it depend on the amount of money saved or perhaps the frequency of the act, or both? Maybe the internal guidelines are more descriptive on this, it would be interesting to know!


*honestly guv, I am in Birmingham at the moment and going home tomorrow!

 

[redreni]

One that used to make sense is the higher fares from places like Halifax to Manchester compared with Leeds to Manchester on a train that stops at Halifax. Northern were once in competition with TPE (and with coach operators, which remains the case) on the Leeds to Manchester route, but not on the Halifax to Manchester route.

It really depends if you think the public transport network should be planned rationally, with coaches used to fill the gaps in the rail network or relieve overcrowding, rather than to abstract revenue from the most profitable routes which invariably mirror what the railway already provides. And if you think the market should set fares or they should be regulated. But there definitely isn't the same incentive for Northern to use Advances to undercut its own Anytime fares for journeys like Halifax-Manchester where competition from other modes is less critical to their revenue.

I'm sure, in almost every case, pricing managers would be able to explain away their failure to offer as many, or any, Advances for shorter journeys than longer ones on the same trains.

 

[Sonic1234]

Northern were once in competition with TPE (and with coach operators, which remains the case) on the Leeds to Manchester route, but not on the Halifax to Manchester route.

This is exactly why they were offered (along with TOC only fares). It's to avoid sharing out the revenue.

Even now, while technically both Northern and TPE are state owned, I expect Northern management have targets (or at the very least to satisfy their own ego or make the graph in the board room look good) to get money in the Northern pot, rather than generate revenue for another operator.

 

[agk2126]

This seems quite difficult to define though.

If the £2.65 Lancaster to Oxford Road was available and a £2.65 Lancaster to Deansgate was also available, clearly no intent to avoid a higher fare.

Is there an easy way to check previous inventory to see what was available at the time of booking? If not, would be hard to prove intent. Is the burden of proof on the TOCs (or prosecution) in situations like this?

 

[John R]

Is there an easy way to check previous inventory to see what was available at the time of booking? If not, would be hard to prove intent. Is the burden of proof on the TOCs (or prosecution) in situations like this?

Surely all they have to prove is that the passenger did not have a valid ticket for the journey undertaken? And in the absence of something in the Conditions of Travel alluding to the "intent to avoid a higher fare" point, that would be easy, as the ticket was not valid between the boarding and alighting stations. (I'm not defending such a practice, btw, just setting out what I thing the position would be.)

 

[agk2126]

And in the absence of something in the Conditions of Travel alluding to the "intent to avoid a higher fare" point

You're surely right that would be their position. And passengers could be understandably confused in situations where railway practice is starkly different (in this case more lenient) than the Conditions of Travel.

 

[Par]

Why, if there isn’t the ability to finish short (or start long) are Advance tickets issued to MCR (Manchester Stations)? Surely this must catch many out who don’t strictly adhere to an itinerary.

Just this week I’ve bought an Advance that I’ll definitely be using to Oxford Rd, but is issued to MCR and lists all four Manchester stations on the ticket.

 

[styles]

Why, if there isn’t the ability to finish short (or start long) are Advance tickets issued to MCR (Manchester Stations)? Surely this must catch many out who don’t strictly adhere to an itinerary.

Just this week I’ve bought an Advance that I’ll definitely be using to Oxford Rd, but is issued to MCR and lists all four Manchester stations on the ticket.

Not sure I follow this question. The ticket is issued to Manchester Stations, so as long as you leave at one of the Manchester Stations, it's not travelling short.

Maybe I've misread something?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not sure I follow this question. The ticket is issued to Manchester Stations, so as long as you leave at one of the Manchester Stations, it's not travelling short.

Maybe I've misread something?

Won't the Advance Single not come with an accompanying mandatory seat reservation on a booked train, in this particular case from Lancaster specifically to Manchester Oxford Road?

 

[kermit]

Not sure I follow this question. The ticket is issued to Manchester Stations, so as long as you leave at one of the Manchester Stations, it's not travelling short.

Maybe I've misread something?

Whilst in the past I have been issued with tickets to Manchester Stations, this one is not. It states only, and specifically, Manchester Oxford Road. If it said Manchester Stations I would have happily hopped off at Deansgate, and not bothered the Forum with the question, but as I have alreadybsaid, the quality of advice provided means I now have the prospect of seeing the lovely woodwork on the outside of Oxford Road, visiting one or even two nice pubs, and being conveyed back to Deansgate on a free bus! I am happy, thank you!!

 

[styles]

Whilst in the past I have been issued with tickets to Manchester Stations, this one is not. It states only, and specifically, Manchester Oxford Road. If it said Manchester Stations I would have happily hopped off at Deansgate, and not bothered the Forum with the question, but as I have alreadybsaid, the quality of advice provided means I now have the prospect of seeing the lovely woodwork on the outside of Oxford Road, visiting one or even two nice pubs, and being conveyed back to Deansgate on a free bus! I am happy, thank you!!

Ah sorry, I missed that you were the original poster, and thought in the latest comment you'd meant to had a ticket to Manchester Stations.

 

[Par]

I‘ve Just bought this ticket issued to MCR (Manchester Stations) but the itinerary is to Oxford Rd (which is where I’ll be alighting) but the service also calls at Piccadilly and the ticket certainly suggests you could use it to Piccadilly. Just wondering why, when as I understood it with an advance, you have to strictly follow the itinerary that it would mention the other 3 Manchester stations?

 

[yorkie]

I‘ve Just bought this ticket issued to MCR (Manchester Stations) but the itinerary is to Oxford Rd (which is where I’ll be alighting) but the service also calls at Piccadilly and the ticket certainly suggests you could use it to Piccadilly. Just wondering why, when as I understood it with an advance, you have to strictly follow the itinerary that it would mention the other 3 Manchester stations?

Staff at Piccadilly should absolutely accept such a ticket without question.

Is there any evidence they are not?

 

[Starmill]

I‘ve Just bought this ticket issued to MCR (Manchester Stations) but the itinerary is to Oxford Rd (which is where I’ll be alighting) but the service also calls at Piccadilly and the ticket certainly suggests you could use it to Piccadilly. Just wondering why, when as I understood it with an advance, you have to strictly follow the itinerary that it would mention the other 3 Manchester stations?

That advance ticket isn't comparable to the one under discussion here because it's a different destination. It's common for Advance tickets to be issued to groups. Sometimes they're to specific members of the group.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2025 ==

Because it's cheaper?

Passengers shouldn't have to do the mental gymnastics of justifying such a ridiculous fare system, especially when it's literally the same train as would be booked onto through the then EMT website.

Yes the passenger was made aware of the stupid terms so being pulled up on it is technically fair game, but it doesn't make them any less stupid.

If it were up to me I'd not have any of this nonsense, and I'd never set an Advance lower than an intermediate journey. However, it's not up to me unfortunately.

Consider London - Bicester Village. It's almost always cheaper to book an Advance to Oxford Parkway. Such a ticket may not be used to finish short at Bicester Village. Chiltern know, quite correctly, that there's huge demand from London to Bicester Village. Oxford Parkway much less so, as it largely just functions as a park and ride for round trips starting there instead, so it needs more demand stimulating. The market from Oxford Parkway is softer too because it's easy to use Hanborough - London or Oxford Tube instead from that area, but not from Bicester. Now if it were me I'd just offer the cheaper tickets and take the risk that I'd be giving away some consumer surplus, or lower the flexible fares slightly to avoid start / finish short anomalies and reduce advance quota slightly, as I think it's to the greater good. But let's be honest: this measure would come at a cost. It would hurt yeild to Bicester Village, or alternatively it would hurt volume from Oxford Parkway. No halfway house exists. It's great business acumen to charge more for a shorter journey in this case. That's why Chiltern have been doing it for years, they're not daft. Airlines do this all the time too. Chiltern do still offer their Advance tickets from Bicester North, so locals with an eye for a bargain will know that and use North, while tourists will just pay whatever to go to the shopping centre. Applying a more 'common sense' pricing structure would hurt revenue slightly. There's no such thing as a free lunch.