Airedale and Wharfedale Overcrowding

[Eric]

Hi guys, does anyone on here know what Metro are actively doing to stop the chronic overcrowding of these services?

I presume they realise that a four car 333 unit isn't enough capacity for the the peaks?

Currently on the 16:26 Leeds - Skipton and people couldn't board it was that full.

Regular posters on here will know this is a regular problem that will only get worse with the new stations opening.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Regular posters on here will know this is a regular problem that will only get worse with the new stations opening.

The Skipton trains do not call at the two new stations, so they will make absolutely no difference.

Northern are running the longest trains they can on the route. There's not much else that can be done. It has nowt to do with Metro.

 

[bluenoxid]

The lines are experiencing the same pressures as a number of other routes into Leeds but has a higher cost for improvements.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

As it coming up again and again on these forums, people try and board the busiest services and they just get busier. People will cram onto any train to get somewhere fast rather than being sensible and waiting for the next train or taking an alternative eg. A Bradford train to Shipley then an ex Bradford to Skipton.

We on these routes can hardly complain about 4 car trains when at least they are guaranteed 99% of the time. Most other local routes out of Leeds are diesel routes with 2 or 3 car units in multiple but with the risk that they might well get a short formed service.

 

[55z]

It is not Metro's problem it is Northern's and Department of Transport's problem. Overcrowding is much worse on other lines.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If Heathrow Express bites the dust, perhaps those 332s could join their cousins in God's Own County...

 

[SeanG]

But as has been said, trains are as long as possible at the moment

 

[Bantamzen]

Hi guys, does anyone on here know what Metro are actively doing to stop the chronic overcrowding of these services?

Given that they do not run the services, just subsidise part of them, they really can't do a lot.

I presume they realise that a four car 333 unit isn't enough capacity for the the peaks?

Currently on the 16:26 Leeds - Skipton and people couldn't board it was that full.

Most Aire / Wharfe valley services can just about cope with 4 car 333s. I often get the 16:26 home, and have never had a problem getting on it aside from those people who would rather hog the door wells than sit next to people. Now the 17:26, that's a challenge...

Regular posters on here will know this is a regular problem that will only get worse with the new stations opening.

The problem for both lines is that many stations cannot accommodate longer trains, and even if they could there simply hasn't been the funding to actually procure them. Northern have not been allowed to procure new stock under their franchise, although this will change under the new one due to start early next year. But it does not escape the fact that the DfT have not allowed any expansion of Northen's network or stock, save any cascades from other TOCs. So if you are angry, you should be angry at the DfT...

 

[northernchris]

Most Aire / Wharfe valley services can just about cope with 4 car 333s. I often get the 16:26 home, and have never had a problem getting on it aside from those people who would rather hog the door wells than sit next to people. Now the 17:26, that's a challenge...

The 1726 is a nightmare! I used to be in Leeds once a week heading back to Keighley and often arrived at the station between 1700-1715 but would wait for the 1740 as it was less crowded. Would be good if there was capacity and stock available for a departure around 1710 to help relieve some of the 1656/1726 overcrowding especially given how bad the road network is heading out of Leeds towards Shipley

 

[dk1]

Need to go back to BR basics & price passengers off. See it wasn't all good back then

 

[BestWestern]

If Heathrow Express bites the dust, perhaps those 332s could join their cousins in God's Own County...

Be an awful shame to see those beautiful interiors ripped out though! :cry:

 

[30907]

The 1726 is a nightmare!

Which is why the extra Skipton was introduced.

As a matter of interest, would it be better running at about 1710 instead? (Remembering a previous thread, let's assume NO extras are possible, so it's one OR the other.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Be an awful shame to see those beautiful interiors ripped out though! :cry:

Some of the more well-to-do folk of Cononley et al would probably agree!

 

[Eric]

The 1726 is a nightmare! I used to be in Leeds once a week heading back to Keighley and often arrived at the station between 1700-1715 but would wait for the 1740 as it was less crowded. Would be good if there was capacity and stock available for a departure around 1710 to help relieve some of the 1656/1726 overcrowding especially given how bad the road network is heading out of Leeds towards Shipley

Everything from the 16:26 onwards is ridiculously overloaded. My point being what do Northern intend to do to elevate the pressure being put on services, because the overcrowding situation is only going to accelerate.

Could Shipley and Keighley take 2 x 4 333's ??

Maybe doubling up the peaks is an answer and only stopping at the major stations ??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But as has been said, trains are as long as possible at the moment

But what are the plans for the future? The Airedale and Wharfdale lines must be in the top three for Northern on year on year growth.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Everything from the 16:26 onwards is ridiculously overloaded. My point being what do Northern intend to do to elevate the pressure being put on services, because the overcrowding situation is only going to accelerate.

Could Shipley and Keighley take 2 x 4 333's ??

Maybe doubling up the peaks is an answer and only stopping at the major stations ??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But what are the plans for the future? The Airedale and Wharfdale lines must be in the top three for Northern on year on year growth.

Shipley platform 3 could take a double 333 but none of the others so not much use on Skipton services. If there was to be doubles better if they're 321/322s as the formation would be 24m shorter. Still too long for everywhere except Skipton and possibly Keighley though.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think we have had a lot of this discussion already back in August

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118083

 

[lejog]

But what are the plans for the future? The Airedale and Wharfdale lines must be in the top three for Northern on year on year growth.

I don't believe they are in the top three for growth, they have already had a period of extremely high growth, which is now levelling off. For example the latest passenger figures for Ilkley are back to 2008/9 levels.

There are AFAIK no plans to lengthen platforms or published proposals to increase train numbers. There are plans to increase train numbers on both Harrogate and Calder Valley lines, which AFAIK require increased capacity at Leeds, most obviously by means of a turning point east of the city. A detailed business case for East Leeds Parkway is currently being prepared, the last issue of Network Rail's CP5 plan contained a Plan B with a turning point at Micklefield.

If/when extra capacity at Leeds is provided, I don't whether any of it will be allocated to rush hour strengthening of Airedale/Wharfedale services. There are of course the questions of rolling stock and whether the lines themselves have available extra capacity.

 

[HSTEd]

Need to go back to BR basics & price passengers off. See it wasn't all good back then

Depends where it is on the Laffer Curve - otherwise don't give the Treasury ideas :P

 

[northwichcat]

But as has been said, trains are as long as possible at the moment

West Yorkshire was supposed to get some new 3 car EMUs to operate alongside the 333s. If an order had gone ahead there would have been 20 x 3 car EMUs for the North West as well and the 17 x 323s would have gone to LM. However, the order never went ahead so West Yorkshire got the 322s in lieu meaning 6 car formations aren't possible.

 

[Camden]

Hi guys, does anyone on here know what Metro are actively doing to stop the chronic overcrowding of these services?

I presume they realise that a four car 333 unit isn't enough capacity for the the peaks?

Currently on the 16:26 Leeds - Skipton and people couldn't board it was that full.

Regular posters on here will know this is a regular problem that will only get worse with the new stations opening.

The government will build you a tunnel under the Pennines.

It won't directly do anything for your commute, but apparently 40% fewer people commute from Leeds to Manchester than should do, and for some reason this new tunnel will supposedly address this desperate problem.

While I haven't heard any plausible reason why this would be, or indeed why this should be viewed as a problem at all, perhaps the hope is that people from Leeds will work in Manchester instead. Indirectly, then, if there were fewer companies in Leeds, then there is less need for people to commute into Leeds? Assuming you live in Skipton, you could just stay at home and the overcrowding problem on your line is solved.

Hopefully my words come across as sufficiently sarcastic to indicate it's parody, but I think your issues do bring into focus this proposed spend of perhaps £8bn on something designed simply to boost the status of Greater Manchester as your designated prefect and "capital of the north", on a route that even the architects of this idea admit carries a whopping 40% fewer people than they'd like, when there are so many other much less costly needs that would have (evidently) much greater impact on your own city's economy. Such as lengthening platforms on your line and getting more and longer trains to run along it, more frequently.

 

[northwichcat]

The government will build you a tunnel under the Pennines.

It won't directly do anything for your commute, but apparently 40% fewer people commute from Leeds to Manchester than should do, and for some reason this new tunnel will supposedly address this desperate problem.

While I haven't heard any plausible reason why this would be, or indeed why this should be viewed as a problem at all, perhaps the hope is that people from Leeds will work in Manchester instead. Indirectly, then, if there were fewer companies in Leeds, then there is less need for people to commute into Leeds? Assuming you live in Skipton, you could just stay at home and the overcrowding problem on your line is solved.

Hopefully my words come across as sufficiently sarcastic to indicate it's parody, but I think your issues do bring into focus this proposed spend of perhaps £8bn on something designed simply to boost the status of Greater Manchester as your designated prefect and "capital of the north", on a route that even the architects of this idea admit carries a whopping 40% fewer people than they'd like, when there are so many other much less costly needs that would have (evidently) much greater impact on your own city's economy. Such as lengthening platforms on your line and getting more and longer trains to run along it, more frequently.

In my opinion North TPE carries people who would travel on other routes if better services were available. For instance, most people travelling from Huddersfield to London go via Leeds when it would be a shorter route to go via Wakefield but there's a few trains an hour between Huddersfield and Leeds but only one between Huddersfield and Wakefield so people avoid going via Wakefield.

 

[johntea]

Well maybe some people will decide to stay in Bradford now the hole is finally a shopping centre

It's a common issue of people MUST be on a specific train at all costs. Chill out, have a coffee, 15 - 30 minutes extra waiting for the next train won't kill you!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Huddersfield seems to be thought of by those in charge as essentially a dormitory town for Leeds and Manchester, but observations of TPE services at HUD would disprove that theory, with peak TPE services disgorging almost as many as they manage to squeeze on. It's for this reason (rather than simple civic pride) that HS3 if it ever happens it is (in my opinion) both unnecessary and unwanted. Rather than a high speed link between Leeds and Manchester and/or 6tph between the two cities, we just need enough capacity on 4tph and AT LEAST a 2tph service to local services between Huddersfield and both cities.

There'd be more benefit per £ spent on rebuilding the Horbury chord and running a 3-car 170 each hour between Bradford and Sheffield via Huddersfield than on HS3 (again, in my opinion).

 

[WestRiding]

There'd be more benefit per £ spent on rebuilding the Horbury chord and running a 3-car 170 each hour between Bradford and Sheffield via Huddersfield than on HS3 (again, in my opinion).

I would like to see the Horbury Curve reopened.

 

[northwichcat]

Huddersfield seems to be thought of by those in charge as essentially a dormitory town for Leeds and Manchester, but observations of TPE services at HUD would disprove that theory, with peak TPE services disgorging almost as many as they manage to squeeze on.

When I lived in Huddersfield (I left in 2006) I was aware of people commuting to Huddersfield from each of Manchester, Stalybridge, Dewsbury and Leeds and that was just among the people I knew.

 

[lejog]

Reading the other thread on this subject there does appear to be an extra service planned for Carlisle around the 5.30pm mark in the new franchise spec, and possibly a later Lancaster service - although only in 2019 (which appears to be franchise speak for when East Leeds Parkway is available).

Anyway - I believe some of the concerns here will be addressed by the next Northern franchise. The ITT states:

Leeds-Settle-Carlisle: We have specified a new Northern service out of Leeds in the afternoon peak, specifically between 1700 and 1759, by December 2019. We are also specifying an additional evening journey from Carlisle back to Leeds by December 2019.

and

Skipton-Lancaster: There are currently five Northern trains per day in each direction between Skipton and Lancaster. We have specified two extra trains per day in each direction by December 2019, making a total of seven trains in each direction

Yes I know four years is a long time to wait, but given the situation an extra Carlisle train seems a decent solution.

 

[northernchris]

Which is why the extra Skipton was introduced.

As a matter of interest, would it be better running at about 1710 instead? (Remembering a previous thread, let's assume NO extras are possible, so it's one OR the other.)

The 1740 Skipton, which was introduced in December 2011, is very busy from Leeds, as well as the 1756 and 1806 Carlisle. I suspect moving the 1740 to 1710 would just shift the problem to later services

 

[Class 170101]

You may be able to tighten up turnarounds to introduce another service but would introduce unreliability into the service plan.

In terms of eight car trains platform lengths, as has been raised, are issue what about in terms of power supply is that up to the job? I know it previously hasn't been.

 

[Polo Mint]

Would it make sense to have some limited stop services to Keighley, Shipley and Skipton, with some services operating further north to Carlisle and Lancaster? Of course we need to wait for the new Northern Rail rolling stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You may be able to tighten up turnarounds to introduce another service but would introduce unreliability into the service plan.

In terms of eight car trains platform lengths, as has been raised, are issue what about in terms of power supply is that up to the job? I know it previously hasn't been.

Would it make sense to have some limited stop services to Keighley, Shipley and Skipton, with some services operating further north to Carlisle and Lancaster? Of course we need to wait for the new Northern Rail rolling stock.

I'm surprised there isn't a bit of slack in the 321/322 fleet, as it totals 8 and prior to the 322s arriving the Leeds to Doncaster coped with 2 units. A couple of them currently work Airedale and Wharfedale diagrams but even with one under exam and one "hot spare" that leaves 2 to play with. Running those as an 8-car service (they're presumably less power-hungry than the 333s) calling at just Keighley and Skipton just ahead of the existing busiest Skipton stopper could help?