Advice regarding rejected appeal

[jhordora]

I was served the penalty fare notice for not having a ticket from Liverpool Lime Street to Bebington station on Merseyrail. I was travelling with multiple items of luggage and saw a lift in the main Lime Street concourse so I took it, it took me straight onto the platform, bypassing the ticketing booth that is usually down 1 set of escalators (then you normally take a 2nd step of escalators to get to the platform). At the same time there was a train just arriving so I got on as the next one would have been a 15-30min wait.

I appealed my penalty fare notice with the point that I had no idea the lift would take me straight down to the platform and bypass the ticket, and that the expectation that I go down the lift to the platform, then go back up a set of escalators to buy a ticket, then go back down the escalators to the platform is not appropriate for people who need to use the lift i.e. people carrying luggage/pushchairs or disabled users. They've rejected my appeal saying where there is a facility to buy tickets before boarding it is my responsibility to buy those tickets before getting on the train. They've not addressed the fact that there is no accessible way to buy tickets if you take that lift.

Is it worth re-appealing? What other points should I be bringing up to help my case? Thanks

 

[Tetchytyke]

They've not addressed the fact that there is no accessible way to buy tickets if you take that lift.

There is, on the main Lime Street concourse, even if nowhere else.

I'd chalk this one down to experience.

 

[gray1404]

Are you disabled? Did your disability prevent you from using the ticket selling facilities at the station?

Now that you have appealed Merseyrail a statute barred from pursuing this matter in the criminal courts. Although they they could pursue it as a civil debt. We have seen a case on the floor and recently of them passing an unpaid penalty fare to a debt collection agency. Although this does not mean they have taken it to court.

There are ticket machines only several metres away from the said lift at Liverpool Lime Street and a ticket office which you could have used before going in the lift. This might be one just to chuck to experience. Also there has been an indeed still is is a predominant notice immediately before the lift advising of the requirement of holding a ticket and the possibility of a penalty fare. You will have walked past this notice before entering the lift.

 

[PupCuff]

I'm afraid I think you're on a hiding to nothing appealing - the entrance to said lift is good as directly opposite the main ticket office at Lime Street, and there are multiple ticket machines on the main concourse too.

 

[jhordora]

I wasn't aware those ticket machines in the main concourse also sold Merseyrail tickets as I've always used the ticketing booth down the escalators. Fair enough! Thanks for the replies

 

[WesternLancer]

I wasn't aware those ticket machines in the main concourse also sold Merseyrail tickets as I've always used the ticketing booth down the escalators. Fair enough! Thanks for the replies

I think the problem here is that as well as ticket machines, there is a whole staffed ticket office on the main concourse (operated by Northern Trains IIRC) that should sell any rail ticket from anywhere to anywhere else in the UK. So unless it was not open at the time you passed you could have used that. I was in there earlier in the week and bought a ticket for use on Merseyrail as I passed that before going down into the underground.

I fear you are best advised to just pay this Penalty Fare in this case (and feel at least a bit lucky that this has happened before Penalty Fares are raised to £100 in the near future - I think it is January, albeit with a 50% discount for prompt payment).

Incidentally, assuming you arrived at Lime Street from a station elsewhere and were travelling on to Bebington, for future ref it may have been better value to book from your origin station through to Bebington as one booking, in some cases this may have cost less than a single from Lime Street to Bebington on top of your ticket from your origin point to Lime Street. Just mentioning in case helpful for future reference.

 

[Watershed]

Whilst I agree with the other comments that the ground of appeal you have brought is unlikely to carry any weight, ultimately now that you have brought an appeal, Merseyrail are statute barred from prosecuting. Their only recourse is to sue you in the County Court if you fail to pay.

Whilst it is common for train companies to engage debt collectors to send scary-sounding letters to chase unpaid Penalty Fares (usually with unenforceable, made-up "administration fees" tacked on) we have never heard of a Penalty Fare actually being pursued in the County Court. Usually the recipient hasn't appealed, and so the TOC instead prosecutes.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's the best course of action, but one option open to you is therefore to raise further appeals (if you wish) and then to simply allow them to sue you, if they so choose.

One of the grounds of appeal you might yet want to try is a lack of Penalty Fare warning signage. At every entrance to a station and platform, there must be prominent signs containing the wording specified in the Regulations.

It is up to Merseyrail to prove that this is the case if you allege such signs weren't present. I can't recall whether there are any such signs before you enter the lift (or on exiting it), but there's no harm in advancing the argument.

 

[WesternLancer]

Whilst I agree with the other comments that the ground of appeal you have brought is unlikely to carry any weight, ultimately now that you have brought an appeal, Merseyrail are statute barred from prosecuting. Their only recourse is to sue you in the County Court if you fail to pay.

Whilst it is common for train companies to engage debt collectors to send scary-sounding letters to chase unpaid Penalty Fares (usually with unenforceable, made-up "administration fees" tacked on) we have never heard of a Penalty Fare actually being pursued in the County Court. Usually the recipient hasn't appealed, and so the TOC instead prosecutes.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's the best course of action, but one option open to you is therefore to raise further appeals (if you wish) and then to simply allow them to sue you, if they so choose.

One of the grounds of appeal you might yet want to try is a lack of Penalty Fare warning signage. At every entrance to a station and platform, there must be prominent signs containing the wording specified in the Regulations.

It is up to Merseyrail to prove that this is the case if you allege such signs weren't present. I can't recall whether there are any such signs before you enter the lift (or on exiting it), but there's no harm in advancing the argument.

Whilst this is all no doubt sound advice. I think in contrast to the hassle that this might involve, I'd pay the £20 and challk it up to expereicne. This is only £16 more than the fare that should have been paid lime st to bebington single. I'm not sure I'd engage in the protracted debates with appeals service / debt collectors and Merseyrail for £16.

But of course helpful in allowing the OP to consider their full options.

 

[gray1404]

Just to add there is indeed penalty fare signage before the lift the OP used.

 

[Watershed]

Just to add there is indeed penalty fare signage before the lift the OP used.

Do you have a picture of it? If so, we can assess whether it contains the required wording.

 

[_toommm_]

Do you have a picture of it? If so, we can assess whether it contains the required wording.

I’ll be in Liverpool in two hours. Is it the lift next to the upstairs ticket office you require a photo of?

 

[Watershed]

I’ll be in Liverpool in two hours. Is it the lift next to the upstairs ticket office you require a photo of?

Yes, that's it. Any Penalty Fare signage near the lift.

 

[_toommm_]

Yes, that's it. Any Penalty Fare signage near the lift.

Assuming TPE run on time, I’ll post it around 9:15am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

Yes, that's it. Any Penalty Fare signage near the lift.

As requested.

(The photo below is of a blue poster stand, with Merseyrail’s penalty fare poster enclosed inside of it. The poster says the following:

Spoiler: Poster text

Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may have to pay a

Penalty Fare.


If you cannot produce a valid ticket for your entire journey when asked to do so you may be charged a Penalty Fare of £20 to the next station at which your train stops. Also, you may be charged the full single fare to your destination station if you continue your journey on the same train

 

[Watershed]

Assuming TPE run on time, I’ll post it around 9:15am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==



As requested.

(The photo below is of a blue poster stand, with Merseyrail’s penalty fare poster enclosed inside of it. The poster says the following:

Spoiler: Poster text

Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may have to pay a

Penalty Fare.


If you cannot produce a valid ticket for your entire journey when asked to do so you may be charged a Penalty Fare of £20 to the next station at which your train stops. Also, you may be charged the full single fare to your destination station if you continue your journey on the same train

View attachment 123954

Thanks. I presume this is right next to the lift then?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks. I presume this is right next to the lift then?

Given the amounts involved, I agree with @WesternLancer 's analysis in post #8. But for completeness and with thanks to @_toommm_ , I think this is the wrong lift - this is the one down to street level rather than the one down to the Merseyrail platform. That's accessed by going between the shops (to the right of the block with WHSmith in , to the left of the block with Boots).

(Edited because I'm an idiot)

 

[_toommm_]

Given the amounts involved, I agree with @WesternLancer 's analysis in post #8. But for completeness and with thanks to @_toommm_ , I think this is the wrong lift - this is the one down to street level rather than the one down to the Merseyrail platform. That's accessed by going between the shops (to the right of the block with WHSmith in , to the left of the block with Boots).

Hmm, the lift was between those two shops. I’ll see if there’s any other lifts in a second.

Edit: The lift has a sign above saying access to the Wirral Line.

(The photo below is a wide angle photo of the last one I posted, this time including the lift doors):

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hmm, the lift was between those two shops. I’ll see if there’s any other lifts in a second.

Edit: The lift has a sign above saying access to the Wirral Line.

(The photo below is a wide angle photo of the last one I posted, this time including the lift doors):

View attachment 123956

Oh. Sorry. My mistake. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Vespa]

The sign has a temporary nature about it and unlikely to be looked at.

It would have been better to have a big warning sticker on the actual lift door itself

WARNING
This lift has direct platform access:
Ticket required beyond this point
penalty fare in operation
Use ticket machines on station concourse



This would have saved the unwary from being caught out.

Perhaps the OP could point that out to Merseyrail.

 

[_toommm_]

Oh. Sorry. My mistake. Thanks for clarifying!

No problem at all I didn’t even know the lift existed until this thread so I assumed I’d got the wrong one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The sign has a temporary nature about it and unlikely to be looked at.

It would have been better to have a big warning sticker on the actual lift door itself

WARNING
This lift has direct platform access:
Ticket required beyond this point
penalty fare in operation
Use ticket machines on station concourse



This would have saved the unwary from being caught out.

Perhaps the OP could point that out to Merseyrail.

There's a number of problems with this approach:

- the sign as suggested wouldn't comply with the rules for penalty fares notices
- it may not be true that a ticket is required beyond the entrance to the lift; that appears to suggest that the lift (and beyond) would be a compulsory ticket area - which (AFAIK) it isn't
- Without knowing the lift intimately, I'm not sure how well a sticker on the door would survive the door sliding open and closed several times a day

I honestly don't see that trying to leverage the regulations to suggest that as well as the sign meeting the statutory standards of wording and location it should also be installed in some permanent manner is going to have any persuasive effect on whoever in the railway decides of a penalty fare is due.

The facts in this case are quite clear: the OP failed to have a valid ticket for their journey. They were caught and charged a penalty fare. All the conditions for charging a penalty fare have been met. So there is no reason for the railway not to charge the penalty fare. The OP may want to ask Merseyrail to use their discretion not to charge the fare - but it's of the nature of discretion that it doesn't have to be shown, and as far as I can see the OP hasn't suggested any compelling reason why it should be shown.

As others have said above, although it's not good news the charge that the OP is facing is £20. The best use of their time and money is to pay up, and make sure they have a valid ticket the next time they travel on Merseyrail.

 

[Vespa]

There's a number of problems with this approach:

- the sign as suggested wouldn't comply with the rules for penalty fares notices
- it may not be true that a ticket is required beyond the entrance to the lift; that appears to suggest that the lift (and beyond) would be a compulsory ticket area - which (AFAIK) it isn't
- Without knowing the lift intimately, I'm not sure how well a sticker on the door would survive the door sliding open and closed several times a day

I don't mean the lift door as it will wear off, near the lift call button as that's where you would look at.

I go to Liverpool frequently and never used that lift and to be honest I never realised it goes directly to the platform, the unwary would be caught out who may assume you can get a ticket on the underground as they do have ticket offices next to barriers, taking people down to the wrong side of the barrier is very poor design and could be considered entrapment.

 

[AntoniC]

As someone who has used this lift many times I can say that there is NO Penalty Warning signage on the Merseyrail Platform where you get the lift upto Lime St.
That could be due to the fact that the corridor to the lift from the platform is narrow.

 

[furlong]

Whether or not the station meets the signage criteria is decided as a matter of fact. Provided the station meets the criteria, then penalty fares can be charged.

The passenger's specific route through the station on any particular occasion is not a relevant factor. I've always assumed this is for the obvious reason that the person drawing up the regulations considered that if the criteria are met then all routes are necessarily covered so it doesn't matter which route anyone actually takes.

 

[WesternLancer]

I note the OP has not been back whilst this discussion of PF signage at Liverpool Street has been going on on the thread....

 

[Wallsendmag]

I think the problem here is that as well as ticket machines, there is a whole staffed ticket office on the main concourse (operated by Northern Trains IIRC) that should sell any rail ticket from anywhere to anywhere else in the UK.

Not quite true , only the GB part

 

[Vespa]

As promised in Liverpool this morning and had a look at the sign itself and the lift door, at no point did it point out that you need a ticket before entering the lift, you would then assume you would arrive at a ticket office, very poor design.

 

[_toommm_]

As promised in Liverpool this morning and had a look at the sign itself and the lift door, at no point did it point out that you need a ticket before entering the lift, you would then assume you would arrive at a ticket office, very poor design.

I did post it in post #13 on this thread.

 

[Vespa]

I did post it in post #13 on this thread.

You did, this is much closer and a better view of the lift door.

 

[gray1404]

This post is becoming a bit ridiculous. The passenger walked past an open ticket office and several ticket machines plus a penalty fare notice. This penalty fare simply needs paying and that by the end of it.

 

[WesternLancer]

This post is becoming a bit ridiculous. The passenger walked past an open ticket office and several ticket machines plus a penalty fare notice. This penalty fare simply needs paying and that by the end of it.

Yep - long time since OP been back to mull over the location of the posters etc....