Advice for rejected Avanti/Southern DR claim

[bonegate]

Dear RailUk forum users,

I was hoping a kind fellow could advise on how to proceed assisting a family member who travelled by train from Morecambe/Lancaster to Polegate on a thorough ticket via Eus/LU/Vic on 8th September.

Their original itinerary was a 1512 arrival into Euston, with a 1554 departure from Victoria to Polegate. Special assistance was booked, and although the short cross-London connection time was queried on booking, NR staff assured that the passenger would make their connection.

The AWC service was 9 minutes late into Euston, and due to demand for other assisted travel customers, by the time they reached the concourse they were not going to make the 1554 from Victoria. This service incidentally arrived into Polegate 38 minutes late at 1747.

Instead they rode the 1624, which was 15 minutes late into Polegate, arriving 1556. Delay replay claims with both Avanti and Southern have been rejected. Avanti stated the delay into Euston was less than 15 minutes so they could not pay. Southern stated that the initial delay in her journey was the fault of Avanti, so they should pursue the DR claim through them.

It seems like both OCs are passing the buck of blame somewhat. My understanding is that the OC that originally caused the delay, whether or not they provided the service to the final destination was responsible for payment? It is coincidental that both 1554 and 1624 Southern departures from Victoria were delayed (as is EVERY Southern service at the moment!)

Had the Avanti train arrived on time and assisted travel was prompt enough to escort the passenger to Victoria in time for the 1554, they still would have been 38 minutes late. And even though they took the 1624 which was only 15 minutes late, according to the printed itinerary connected with their ticket, their delay was a total of 47 minutes.

Since the DR claim window has now closed I shall be directing this towards the customer service email of the OC. But could a kind individual please advise as to who to address this too? Or was it in fact the responsibility of the assisted travel team at Euston who couldn’t meet her in time (I believe that falls under Network Rail?)

I thank you in advance for reading this article and any assistance you could offer.

 

[AlterEgo]

Avanti are responsible and it is unambiguous. Has the time lapsed to appeal their decision?

 

[bonegate]

wow thanks for the very quick response AlterEgo. Yes according to ontimetrains.co.uk the time window has closed. In previous instances claiming via Southern after the window closes I have done so via comments@southernrail.co.uk. I’m wondering if there is a similar email to contract Avanti?

 

[WesternLancer]

wow thanks for the very quick response AlterEgo. Yes according to ontimetrains.co.uk the time window has closed. In previous instances claiming via Southern after the window closes I have done so via comments@southernrail.co.uk. I’m wondering if there is a similar email to contract Avanti?

Why has the time to appeal the rejection of the claim expired? So long as the claim itself was submitted within the permitted time I would have thought it was still ok.

Can you list the dates on what happened when with the claim?

 

[Haywain]

I thank you in advance for reading this article and any assistance you could offer.

Undoubtedly Avanti who are responsible. I would raise the matter with their customer relations team and emphasise the fact that the additional delay in providing booked assistance was a contributing factor (therefore a failure on two counts).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 16:18 ==

Why has the time to appeal the rejection of the claim expired? So long as the claim itself was submitted within the permitted time I would have thought it was still ok.

I agree - I recently appealed a rejected claim several months after the initial decision, having completely overlooked the email. The claim was then accepted.

 

[bonegate]

Many thanks, yes you’re quite right I’ve just seen the rejection email and it states it’s possible to appeal until 3rd November. There was a delay in awaiting their decision too. So would you recommended going through that portal or sending an email direct to AWC customer relations? And yes I’ll state the delays in assisted travel compounded the problem, but ultimately regardless of the late running Southern service AWC have failed to honour the passenger’s original itinerary and therefore the responsibility of 30-59mins delay lies with them?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Many thanks, yes you’re quite right I’ve just seen the rejection email and it states it’s possible to appeal until 3rd November. There was a delay in awaiting their decision too. So would you recommended going through that portal or sending an email direct to AWC customer relations? And yes I’ll state the delays in assisted travel compounded the problem, but ultimately regardless of the late running Southern service AWC have failed to honour the passenger’s original itinerary and therefore the responsibility of 30-59mins delay lies with them?

Try appealing first, if you go to the Customer Relations team they will probably just tell you to appeal first.

 

[WesternLancer]

Many thanks, yes you’re quite right I’ve just seen the rejection email and it states it’s possible to appeal until 3rd November. There was a delay in awaiting their decision too. So would you recommended going through that portal or sending an email direct to AWC customer relations? And yes I’ll state the delays in assisted travel compounded the problem, but ultimately regardless of the late running Southern service AWC have failed to honour the passenger’s original itinerary and therefore the responsibility of 30-59mins delay lies with them?

When preparing your appeal I suggest putting a draft of it here before you submit it so that people here can help finesse it to maximise the chance of a successful outcome.

This assumes avantis appeal form actually permits the ability to explain things. Some rail companies make that difficult. I’ve not used Avanti’s myself.

 

[bonegate]

Thank you, so helpful! Draft coming shortly. Under the drop down menu for reason for delay, would it be missed connection? Avanti’s tardiness ultimately caused the 1554 ex Victoria to be missed

 

[SuspectUsual]

When preparing your appeal I suggest putting a draft of it here before you submit it so that people here can help finesse it to maximise the chance of a successful outcome.

Good advice, for example......

The AWC service was 9 minutes late into Euston, and due to demand for other assisted travel customers, by the time they reached the concourse they were not going to make the 1554 from Victoria. This service incidentally arrived into Polegate 38 minutes late at 1747.

Instead they rode the 1624, which was 15 minutes late into Polegate, arriving 1556.

.....I assume you mean arrived 1756?

 

[bonegate]

Good advice, for example......



.....I assume you mean arrived 1756?

Yes! ‍♂️

 

[Swedenorer]

Definitely right to query the connection time at the start and staff had absolutely no right to guarantee anything like a 42 minute transfer esp if assistance is required. I'm sure the advice used to be to allow an hour min and I always took the view that anything quicker was a win.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Definitely right to query the connection time at the start and staff had absolutely no right to guarantee anything like a 42 minute transfer esp if assistance is required. I'm sure the advice used to be to allow an hour min and I always took the view that anything quicker was a win.

It's (barely) a valid connection. 15 minutes is allowed at each of Euston and Victoria, with 9 minutes allowed for the transfer between the two by Tube.

I agree that an increased transfer time would have been better given Passenger Assistance was required, however.

 

[bonegate]

It's (barely) a valid connection. 15 minutes is allowed at each of Euston and Victoria, with 9 minutes allowed for the transfer between the two by Tube.

I agree that an increased transfer time would have been better given Passenger Assistance was required, however.

Yes agreed, but after booking the advanced ticket and realising the short connection time, Southern were not interested in changing the original departure time from Lancaster reduced mobility across London, due to the advance ticket restrictions. Surely this should be something that reduced mobility passengers could select when booking advanced tickets with short connection times?

 

[Swedenorer]

I believe you can add extra connection time under options on the Forum booking site.

 

[bonegate]

Avanti’s appeal portal doesn’t give you much wiggle room to plead your case, only 250 characters! I presume the reason for the appeal on the drop down menu is “I dispute TOC responsible”. In which case I have written this…

Under National Rail conditions of carriage the TOC responsible for the initial delay to the final destination is at fault. Delays to assisted travel compounded the problem, but ultimately AWC delay caused the missed connection at London Victoria.

If were to select “I can provide information requested”, does this take you to a review page where you can upload various documents? Didn’t want to go ahead with that before checking with you all on here first.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Avanti’s appeal portal doesn’t give you much wiggle room to plead your case, only 250 characters! I presume the reason for the appeal on the drop down menu is “I dispute TOC responsible”. In which case I have written this…

Under National Rail conditions of carriage the TOC responsible for the initial delay to the final destination is at fault. Delays to assisted travel compounded the problem, but ultimately AWC delay caused the missed connection at London Victoria.

If were to select “I can provide information requested”, does this take you to a review page where you can upload various documents? Didn’t want to go ahead with that before checking with you all on here first.

If it helps, you can squeeze a few extra characters by replacing 'National Rail conditions of carriage' with 'NRCoT' (why 'T' at the end? Because for the last few years they've been called the 'National Rail Conditions of Travel'), and you could replace 'compounded the problem' with 'made things worse'.

 

[Belperpete]

Avanti’s appeal portal doesn’t give you much wiggle room to plead your case, only 250 characters! I presume the reason for the appeal on the drop down menu is “I dispute TOC responsible”. In which case I have written this…

Under National Rail conditions of carriage the TOC responsible for the initial delay to the final destination is at fault. Delays to assisted travel compounded the problem, but ultimately AWC delay caused the missed connection at London Victoria.

If were to select “I can provide information requested”, does this take you to a review page where you can upload various documents? Didn’t want to go ahead with that before checking with you all on here first.

Unless things have changed, that just allows you to re-provide the information requested on the original claim. I ended up complaining to customer services and sending my itinerary to them, who re-opened the claim, but WITHOUT forwarding the information to the delay repay team! So I just got the exact same rejection back.

Unfortunately Avanti are known for rejecting claims for entirely spurious reasons.

The critical thing is that the 9 minute delay into Euston infringed the minimum connection time to get to Victoria, meaning that Avanti broke the connection. Regardless of any additional delay caused by the failure of assisted travel. Personally, I wouldn't confuse the issue by mentioning the assisted travel issue at all (if you want to complain about that, do it separately). I would just say something like the 9 minute late arrival into Euston meant that you were unable to catch your booked connection from Victoria, and therefore under the NRCoT, Avanti are liable.

 

[bonegate]

perfect thanks so much for your help, will see what happens

 

[SuspectUsual]

I would just say something like the 9 minute late arrival into Euston meant that you were unable to catch your booked connection from Victoria, and therefore under the NRCoT, Avanti are liable.

Same here, although I'd be really, really blunt about it.

Something like:

Minimum connection time Euston to Victoria is xx minutes, made up of xx minutes at each station and yy minutes for the journey between them. [Add a link to this]

My booked arrival was xx:xx and my booked departure was yy:yy which is a connection of xx minutes which is greater than the minimum connection above

My Avanti train was 9 minutes late arriving at Euston, meaning I had xx minutes to get to Victoria - this is less than the minimum connection time

Therefore Avanti are liable for my delay repay claim