Advance 1st Leeds to Newcastle

[Red Dragon]

Hello, I'm travelling from LDS to NCL and have bought the Advance 1st ticket. I have a reservation on the 15.28 YRK to NCL and the reservation states Mandatory Reservation Coupon 1 of 1.
I have no reservation coupon for the LDS to YRK leg of the journey.
Can I use any TP CC or Northern train from LDS to YRK ?

 

[Failed Unit]

Hello, I'm travelling from LDS to NCL and have bought the Advance 1st ticket. I have a reservation on the 15.28 YRK to NCL and the reservation states Mandatory Reservation Coupon 1 of 1.
I have no reservation coupon for the LDS to YRK leg of the journey.
Can I use any TP CC or Northern train from LDS to YRK ?

Yes, I suspect that your best connection is on a Northern train which is why you didn't get a coupon. But if you want to get an earlier connection to give you extra security at York it won't be a problem as long as it is reasonable, ie you don't try and get say the 10am

 

[Red Dragon]

Thank you - I'll get the 14.27 TP to give a bit more time in YRK.

 

[cuccir]

Erm, is that OK? I'm not sure you can get a TPE train as they are bookable; therefore a non-booked ticket mightn't be valid? The reason that you have a non-booked connections portion is because your schedule is for a Northern Rail train.

I could of course be wrong here but I'd have presumed that was the case?

 

[Mike395]

My view on this is that on a '+connections' Advance ticket, any train can be taken so long as the route is in accordance with the Routing Guide and the time is reasonable to connect to or from the booked train

 

[Failed Unit]

Erm, is that OK? I'm not sure you can get a TPE train as they are bookable; therefore a non-booked ticket mightn't be valid? The reason that you have a non-booked connections portion is because your schedule is for a Northern Rail train.

I could of course be wrong here but I'd have presumed that was the case?

The wording of the T&Cs is that you must be on you specified time of train. In this case no time is specified. It is like when I go to Market Rasen via Barnetby the gaurds have no problem. The condition is no break of journey so increasing a 10 minute connection to a 25 minute one is good planning at this time of year.

I am not sure if the op had a TPE reservation if they would have said no train x only.

 

[cuccir]

OK, this is interesting for me. I have a reserved Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester ticket for 27/12, to depart on the Northern Rail 12:18 service to Lancaster and catch the 13:26 TPE to Picadilly. I only have a ten minute connection time in Lancaster and the Northern Rail leg is un-reserved; if I'm willing to put up with an hour's wait in Lancaster could I get the 11:25 TPE service to Preston out of Barrow to Lancaster?

 

[Failed Unit]

What does it say on you ticket? TPE only? Was there not direct service when you want to travel?

Back to the point I can't see any reason why not.

Are you travelling on your booked service from Lancaster? Yes
Is you connection reasonable not to be viewed as a break? Yes

If questioned to why you haven't got a reservation you can just show them you tickets both of them in this case. The number of coupons is printed on your tickets so you are not hiding a reservation. Finally your northern service will just be shown as "suggested service" on your printout not a compulsory service which the lancaster one is.

 

[barrykas]

Way back when I did my retail training (10.5 years ago now...doesn't time fly?!), I was told that "and connections" type tickets were only valid on a reservable service if you had a reservation for that service.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[clagmonster]

Break of journey restrictions are a bit of a red herring for this question. The relevent clause of the ticket restriction is:
"If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

Now, assuming the ticket is issued on standard orange stock, when you initial book on a non-reservable connecting service the tickets won't mention the connecting service, so you should refer to a 'valid travel itinerary'. When booking your ticket, you should be issued with this. I believe that when booking your tickets at a staffed station you can ask for an extended connection time. The text only version of the WebTis booking engine also has this feature.
However, if you have already booked your tickets I think you are officially invalid on reservable connecting trains on which you do not have a reservation. That is not to say that if you ask the guard you will not be given permission to travel.

 

[John @ home]

if you have already booked your tickets I think you are officially invalid on reservable connecting trains on which you have a reservation.

There must be a not or a don't missing from this sentence.

 

[yorkie]

This subject keeps cropping up!

Erm, is that OK? I'm not sure you can get a TPE train as they are bookable;

But, as we've established before in countless previous topics, this is not documented anywhere. It appears to be an urban myth. Yes it may be the intention of ATOC (but different people within ATOC have differing views and interpretations on a wide variety of issues anyway) and yes it is the opinion of some rail staff, but show me anything that says that and then I'll take note!

therefore a non-booked ticket mightn't be valid? The reason that you have a non-booked connections portion is because your schedule is for a Northern Rail train.

I could of course be wrong here but I'd have presumed that was the case?

OK, I book a ticket from Clapham Jn to York, with a suggested service leaving at 1124 to Waterloo.

I get to Clapham Jn and see that there are two 1124 trains. The one on platform 10 is a couple of minutes late, but the one on platform 7 is on time, so I get on it. Now, if what you think is true, the guard can come up to me and ask to see my reservation. I don't have one. So what happens then? That train is reservable. Is a normal customer able to know that? Not easily no!

There is no rule saying you can't get a reservable train and it has simply been made up, and on some of the occasions that this topic crops up, it gets repeated. I believe it's a myth.

OK, this is interesting for me. I have a reserved Barrow-in-Furness to Manchester ticket for 27/12, to depart on the Northern Rail 12:18 service to Lancaster and catch the 13:26 TPE to Picadilly. I only have a ten minute connection time in Lancaster and the Northern Rail leg is un-reserved; if I'm willing to put up with an hour's wait in Lancaster could I get the 11:25 TPE service to Preston out of Barrow to Lancaster?

I believe you can. But the guard may at first suspect you are attempting to get an earlier train, as in your particular scenario the earlier train is actually going to your final destination! If you explain you are getting off at Lancaster the guard should accept it, in my opinion. However unless you urgently need to make that connection I wouldn't inconvenience yourself waiting for an hour. It looks a bit dodgy, but I believe it is valid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is you connection reasonable not to be viewed as a break? Yes

?????
I don't understand the relevance of this.

A "break of journey" is leaving railway premises, there is no definition of time involved. If you exit the station for even one minute, that's technically a "break of journey". You can stand at a station all day and it's not a "break of journey" (see National Rail Conditions of Carriage for definition)

 

[Red Dragon]

Hello again, and thanks for the interesting responses re my trip to Newcastle.
My outward journey ILK - NWC took place yesterday, 12th Nov to see the Peter Kay show, and we returned today from Newcastle.
I'm sure you were right that the LDS - YRK trip should have been Northern so there was no reservation for this section with my tickets (and TP are reservable). However we travelled LDS - YRK yesterday and YRK - LDS today with no reservations on TP with no problem at all. I did show the YRK - NCL reservations on both occasions. Excellent journey back, 15.58 ex NCL, 10 seconds to spare on the transfer to TP at YRK (via the subway), slow TP run to LDS resulting in 30 seconds to spare on our transfer to the ILK train. Total NCL - ILK 2hrs.

 

[Failed Unit]

Glad you had a good time with no problems.

 

[cuccir]

Interesting stuff. My earlier train wouldn't b going to my destination, it terminates in Preston. I'll probably stick to my booked times but its interesting to know that this is an option!

 

[yorkie]

Interesting stuff. My earlier train wouldn't b going to my destination, it terminates in Preston. I'll probably stick to my booked times but its interesting to know that this is an option!

That's unusual. Are you sure it's not one of the trains that combines with one from Scotland that may incorrectly be shown as terminating? I don't think any of this matters to determine validity, but it may just make the guard suspicious.

 

[janb]

That's unusual. Are you sure it's not one of the trains that combines with one from Scotland that may incorrectly be shown as terminating?

No it terminates at Preston. Used to catch it regularly and it formed a PRE-WDM, not sure if it still does. No through trains from Barrow to Manchester between the hours of 9.21 and 15.25 on a weekday.

 

[clagmonster]

There must be a not or a don't missing from this sentence.

Message edited.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This subject keeps cropping up!

But, as we've established before in countless previous topics, this is not documented anywhere. It appears to be an urban myth. Yes it may be the intention of ATOC (but different people within ATOC have differing views and interpretations on a wide variety of issues anyway) and yes it is the opinion of some rail staff, but show me anything that says that and then I'll take note!

OK, I book a ticket from Clapham Jn to York, with a suggested service leaving at 1124 to Waterloo.

I get to Clapham Jn and see that there are two 1124 trains. The one on platform 10 is a couple of minutes late, but the one on platform 7 is on time, so I get on it. Now, if what you think is true, the guard can come up to me and ask to see my reservation. I don't have one. So what happens then? That train is reservable. Is a normal customer able to know that? Not easily no!

There is no rule saying you can't get a reservable train and it has simply been made up, and on some of the occasions that this topic crops up, it gets repeated. I believe it's a myth.


I believe you can. But the guard may at first suspect you are attempting to get an earlier train, as in your particular scenario the earlier train is actually going to your final destination! If you explain you are getting off at Lancaster the guard should accept it, in my opinion. However unless you urgently need to make that connection I wouldn't inconvenience yourself waiting for an hour. It looks a bit dodgy, but I believe it is valid.

You must travel on trains as shown either on your ticket or on a 'valid travel itinerary'. If you don't have a reservation, the vast majority of the time said trains will not be shown on your ticket, so you should refer to a valid travel itinerary. If you buy your ticket at a station, you should be given a hard copy of this, if you book over the internet this will be included in the booking confirmation.

Whilst you can get suggested itineraries over the internet later without buying another ticket, I do not believe these are valid travel itinerariers due to clauses in the various website terms and conditions.

The reason this issue is associated mainly with reservable trains is that there is a far greater chance that a reservation will be asked for by a guard or TTI.

In your example of simultaneous departures from Waterloo, I would expect common sense to prevail in the event of a ticket inspection between Waterloo and Clapham.

 

[yorkie]

Whilst you can get suggested itineraries over the internet later without buying another ticket, I do not believe these are valid travel itinerariers due to clauses in the various website terms and conditions.

I disagree, it says you need a "valid itinerary" and there is nothing invalid about one produced from the NRES website.

The reason this issue is associated mainly with reservable trains is that there is a far greater chance that a reservation will be asked for by a guard or TTI.

Yes but that doesn't determine validity either way

In your example of simultaneous departures from Waterloo, I would expect common sense to prevail in the event of a ticket inspection between Waterloo and Clapham.

So basically those who claim you cannot get reservable trains have to admit that their argument falls foul of common sense and is unenforceable? If so, I rest my case!

Of the guards on here who have expressed an opinion, I'm not aware of any who say that. Yes, I know HHF says that, but he's ticket office staff, and I'm more interested in what guards think than TO staff, as it is guards who at the end of the day will be checking the ticket. (Not that I don't value HHF's contributions, I do! )

 

[clagmonster]

I disagree, it says you need a "valid itinerary" and there is nothing invalid about one produced from the NRES website.

I suspect that companies could hide behind the clause in the terms and conditions of the National Rail website stating that the information on the site is not neccesarily error free. There is also the fact that they specifically state that they don't claim the information is suitable for any purpose which I believe makes it legally not a valid travel itinerary. I'm not a lawyer, but this is the way I see it.
I've not provided quotes from the wesbite as apparatly this would go against the conditions (I'll quote ticket conditions from elsewhere in future), but they can be found here:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/terms/
If you prefer, I can be slightly more specific in a PM.

The distinction I see between reservable and non-reservable trains is that on a non-reservable train a guard/TTI is highly unlikely to care about reservations or itineraries so no issue will arise. An issue could arise if using a reservable connecting train. I agree that it is really irrelevent and does not determine validity.

I see the case of simultaneous departures from a station such as Waterloo to be a special case, as unless a valid journey itinerary specifies the destination of the train, there is no way for the passenger to know which 11:24 departure to Clapham they are booked on. However, if it was a choice of an 11:23 or an 11:24, then it would be clear from the itinerary.

 

[D6700]

Surely, a "valid itinerary" simply means a journey that conforms to the minimum interchange times for the transfer station(s) involved - and cannot possibly mean much more than that.

i.e. If changing trains at Leeds, the official minimum interchange time is 10 minutes. If you chance a 5 minute "connection" and miss your booked train forward, you didn't travel using a valid itinerary and will be liable to pay again. However, if you go for a 35 minute connection and miss, that is a valid itinerary, so they will need to accommodate you on the next service at no additional charge.

Itineraries and seat reservations are very different things.

 

[clagmonster]

That is an interesting interpretation of a valid itinerary. In fact it is one which is very difficult to disprove, without a formal definition of the term 'valid travel itinerary'. The reason seat reservations have entered into the discussion is because that is generally the medium in which booked connecting trains 'shown on the ticket' are shown on the ticket.

Interestingly, the East Coast website has a different wording, which is similar to my interpretation of the National Rail reading. The relevent part is:
"If your ticket shows a route "EC and Connections", you will be reserved on to all necessary East Coast trains and connecting trains of other companies at the time of booking. Please note that if you take connecting trains other than those shown on your ticket, you will need a seat reservation to travel by any connecting train shown in the timetable as reserveable"
http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-i...nformation/Ticket-Sales-Terms-and-Conditions/

So essentially they say that to travel on a reservable train on the connecting leg of an advance ticket you need to be booked on that train.

 

[yorkie]

East Coast have made that up. It doesn't exist on Avantix, NRES, etc.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have the same ticket... i come back on the saturday and im confused by the posts so im gonna ask it again....

my trip from york leeds is on northern so i am not agreed to travel on a service as i cant make reservations? so can i stay in york for couple of hours visit museum then get a later one? or do i have to get on first avaliabel connection

 

[yorkie]

See posts above regarding connections.

You are not allowed to break your journey on an Advance ticket.

Break of journey is defined in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, according to this definition, unsurprisingly visiting the National Rail Museum is classed as a break of journey