Absurd argument trying to buy a ticket!

[sheff1]

How about a PA announcement from the guard saying they are in coach X, and any passengers who need tickets can come and buy them there?

Or what would be wrong with that?

As with others, I don't see anything wrong with that. I would love to see the ensuing melee as we were bouncing through the Hope Valley on a Pacer, especially if it was one of the monthly music trains.

 

[Starmill]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

Can you actually do this though? I've often boarded at stations with closed ticket offices and seen no guard come around. Once or twice it crossed my mind to nock, but I thought: If he/she has not come around it will be for a reason. They don't want me knocking on their door!

And the big heavy opaque locked security door with red warning notices, and no means of attracting attention other than knocking against the acoustic chaos of a train at speed, at the far end of a long and possibly crowded unit, behind which the invisible guard may or may not actually be (especially in the case of multiple ungangwayed units), is not exactly the most customer welcoming process one can think of.

Well, exactly.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Of course you can give us a knock if you need a question answered, a ticket issuied or to let us know that there is an ill passenger needing help. We are here to help!

 

[Starmill]

Well that's nice Thank you!

Friendliness is not necessarily required from any customer facing staff, but It's always cheering when it happens, especially when travelling alone. Like a few weeks ago when I showed a Northern guard a 1-6 travelcard and actually got a laugh!

I've known one or two TPE guards to actually invite people to the rear cab if they needed assistance, when the train has been diverted or something. He stood with the door open; excellent view out the back cab window!

 

[Wath Yard]

As with others, I don't see anything wrong with that. I would love to see the ensuing melee as we were bouncing through the Hope Valley on a Pacer, especially if it was one of the monthly music trains.

I'm obviously in the minority then because I can see a lot wrong with the guard telling passengers who have boarded at unmanned stations to get up and go and get a ticket off him, that is unless he's sprained his ankle and is immobile.

My experience of it being done on SWT is they tell passengers who have boarded at manned stations but haven't purchased a ticket to find them and buy one. That is entirely different.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm obviously in the minority then because I can see a lot wrong with the guard telling passengers who have boarded at unmanned stations to go and get a ticket off him, that is unless he's sprained his ankle and is immobile.

What, exactly do you find wrong about it?

 

[455driver]

Please, give us more analogies where you use theft of physical items to relate to non-payment of a service. They are so thrillingly relevent.

About as relevant as a whole thread because a ticketing clerk asked a few questions to clarify the exact ticket required!

 

[yorkie]

I went into my local shop today, picked up a few things but because there wasnt anyone on the checkout I just walked straight out of the store with the items in hand, I dont think there is a requirement for me to go looking around the store for somebody to serve me is there?

Pretty much the same thing as looking for the guard in my book so I assume I am not guilty of anything because it is their job to be there when I want.


I didnt really but you get my drift.

Wrong analogy. Sorry!

Here is the correct analogy:

I went into my local shop today, picked up a few things but because there wasnt anyone at the aisle I just walked straight to the checkout with the items in hand, I dont think there is a requirement for me to go looking around the aisles for somebody to serve me is there?

When I got to the checkout, the person at the checkout didn't believe me that no-one served me at the aisles.

I didnt really but you get my drift

 

[Anon Mouse]

Wrong analogy. Sorry!

Here is the correct analogy:

I went into my local shop today, picked up a few things but because there wasnt anyone at the aisle I just walked straight to the checkout with the items in hand, I dont think there is a requirement for me to go looking around the aisles for somebody to serve me is there?

When I got to the checkout, the person at the checkout didn't believe me that no-one served me at the aisles.

I didnt really but you get my drift

Or if you went to the local corner shop to buy a paper and a pint of milk. When you go to the counter the owner is in the back getting a delivery. As he was busy and there was nobody else to serve you, you just work out as its up to the owner to serve you and not for you to tell him you need to pay for the goods you have picked up.

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand.

On some trains someone comes through to take tickets. It does not always happen; the train may be DOO (the majority of journeys in this country are on DOO trains!) or there may be any other reason.

A passenger alighting from such a train has done absolutely nothing wrong by doing so.

The passenger is then required to go to the ticket office (the 'checkout') and pay.

The OP did exactly that, and has done absolutely nothing wrong. He carried out his obligation and was obliged to do nothing more.

 

[SN74LS123N]

So that would count as an opportunity to buy, if boarding from an unmanned etc station?

Baildon, which has had absolutely no ticket facilities whatsoever since it reopened in 1973, is 240 scheduled seconds of travel from Shipley.

Allow time for visual checks along the platform as the train accelerates, locking up the door operating panel, operating the PA and making the announcement.

So, the question is, Mr Flamingo, how many ticket buying transactions can you guarantee to complete in the remaining 210 or so seconds before you have to open the doors again? Because anyone you *can't* serve in that time has *not* had an opportunity to buy, no matter how much sophistry is thrown at them, and, if they are honest, they are going to end up in the ticket office at Shipley having a conversation like the one that started this thread.

 

[island]

How about a PA announcement from the guard saying they are in coach X, and any passengers who need tickets can come and buy them there?

Or what would be wrong with that?

What if the guard is in the other half of a multiple unit with no gangway?

 

[Wolfie]

How about a PA announcement from the guard saying they are in coach X, and any passengers who need tickets can come and buy them there?

Or what would be wrong with that?

In principle, nothing. In practical terms if I had to walk the length of a train on a crowded service, particularly say a 12 car train in the London area, and consequently lost my seat as a result I would likely be rather less than chuffed to put it politely. Very convenient for the staff may be but not so clever for the passenger possibly............
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and I was at that match at Hillsborough too (having travelled from London. My commiserations to the OP who, if he was anything like me, would have wished that he had stayed in bed rather get up and travel in the freezing cold to watch the complete load of tripe on display (particularly from my team truthfully, although you would have struggled to get a decent team from all 22 of them!).......

 

[Flamingo]

In principle, nothing. In practical terms if I had to walk the length of a train on a crowded service, particularly say a 12 car train in the London area, and consequently lost my seat as a result I would likely be rather less than chuffed to put it politely. Very convenient for the staff may be but not so clever for the passenger possibly............

Well, if the alternative is all the hassle and delays associated with dealing with an RPI at the barriers, and saying "I didn't know where the guard was" may not be the get out of jail free card some people seem to think it is (in light of the guards announcement), which would be a better alternative?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What if the guard is in the other half of a multiple unit with no gangway?

Then I doubt they would be making such an announcement. However, on a Saturday afternoon 8 car train from Chippenham (unbarriered) to Bath or Bristol (both penalty fare stations, where the guard has to be in the rear carriage at Bath), it does give passengers a customer-friendly alternative to dealing with the possibly less customer-friendly RPI's on the barriers.

 

[Goatboy]

Question: What does a passenger do when travelling between two unmanned stations without TVM's or where the TVM doesn't offer the required ticket?

 

[Starmill]

Question: What does a passenger do when travelling between two unmanned stations without TVM's or where the TVM doesn't offer the required ticket?

... or where the TVM doesn't accept one's chosen means of payment?

Then you have no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, on the train, nor after alighting from it. What do you think is to be done in this situation?

 

[Flamingo]

Question: What does a passenger do when travelling between two unmanned stations without TVM's or where the TVM doesn't offer the required ticket?

It depends. In a large number of cases says to the guard "**** off, I'm only going one stop, I'm not buying one".

 

[Goatboy]

It depends. In a large number of cases says to the guard "**** off, I'm only going one stop, I'm not buying one".

I think you know that wasn't really the scenario I was thinking of

 

[Oswyntail]

No mention of it.....

That does (and doesn't) surprise me. I would have thought, though, with the thorny problems surrounding this area (as illustrated by this thread) that guards should be given some guidance.

 

[Flamingo]

That does (and doesn't) surprise me. I would have thought, though, with the thorny problems surrounding this area (as illustrated by this thread) that guards should be given some guidance.

We are - Don't cause delays, don't cause complaints.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We are - Don't cause delays, don't cause complaints.

That pretty much sums it up

 

[Flamingo]

I think you know that wasn't really the scenario I was thinking of

Sorry, I was giving a real-world example. You don't travel in West Wales much on a Sunday?

 

[island]

I hear Port Talbot Parkway has rather limited ticket office hours...

 

[Flamingo]

And no barriers, they may as well not have a ticket office there at all...

 

[BestWestern]

Can you actually do this though? I've often boarded at stations with closed ticket offices and seen no guard come around. Once or twice it crossed my mind to knock, but I thought: If he/she has not come around it will be for a reason. They don't want me knocking on their door!

If you come across a Guard who gives you attitude for knocking on his cab door, tell his TOC! I get deeply irritated when certain colleagues take the attitude that they will deal with the perpetual annoyance that is passengers when they feel like it and not before, if they feel like it at all. As though they are doing everybody a favour by going out there and doing tickets, or bothering to pick up the PA and make an announcement of more than two words!

We are on the train for you, the passenger, as well as to carry out various other duties relating to safety and the running of the train. There are times when we are busy, sometimes this will be obvious and sometimes it might not be, but there are few instances where we are so busy that we cannot possibly show our face in the train for the whole journey. Sometimes the train is big and we can't get through all of it, or there is a stop every few minutes, or we are jam packed. But if you've made the effort to find us then you should at least be able to expect some courtesy! If we are in the process of dispatching a train, or - my pet hate - clearly in the middle of making an announcement (!) then it is not helpful to be tugging on our sleeve because you require a ticket. However, we all have a tongue and can politely ask you to wait a moment. If we cannot do tickets at all, we have a PA system with which we should inform you (but we ought to still come through the train). The same applies if we are going to be 'unavailable' for some time due to some other pressing need, for example the oft-mentioned 'safety duties', it takes just a few seconds to tell people what is happening and where you can be found if you are needed. I'm not the perfect Guard by any means, but in this age of quick fire prosecutions and sky-high fares, I do sympathise with the passenger who wants to buy a ticket, or just expects to see the Guard who's wages he is contributing towards!

It's our job, don't be afraid to ask us to do it!

 

[Flamingo]

Wot he said!

 

[Goatboy]

If you come across a Guard who gives you attitude for knocking on his cab door, tell his TOC! I get deeply irritated when certain colleagues take the attitude that they will deal with the perpetual annoyance that is passengers when they feel like it and not before, if they feel like it at all. As though they are doing everybody a favour by going out there and doing tickets, or bothering to pick up the PA and make an announcement of more than two words!

We are on the train for you, the passenger, as well as to carry out various other duties relating to safety and the running of the train. There are times when we are busy, sometimes this will be obvious and sometimes it might not be, but there are few instances where we are so busy that we cannot possibly show our face in the train for the whole journey. Sometimes the train is big and we can't get through all of it, or there is a stop every few minutes, or we are jam packed. But if you've made the effort to find us then you should at least be able to expect some courtesy! If we are in the process of dispatching a train, or - my pet hate - clearly in the middle of making an announcement (!) then it is not helpful to be tugging on our sleeve because you require a ticket. However, we all have a tongue and can politely ask you to wait a moment. If we cannot do tickets at all, we have a PA system with which we should inform you (but we ought to still come through the train). The same applies if we are going to be 'unavailable' for some time due to some other pressing need, for example the oft-mentioned 'safety duties', it takes just a few seconds to tell people what is happening and where you can be found if you are needed. I'm not the perfect Guard by any means, but in this age of quick fire prosecutions and sky-high fares, I do sympathise with the passenger who wants to buy a ticket, or just expects to see the Guard who's wages he is contributing towards!

It's our job, don't be afraid to ask us to do it!

If only we could replace all the guards with those with a similar attitude to yours. You are a credit to the industry.

It always seems such a shame when I meet guards who are so unwilling to help and obviously consider passengers a nuisance that get in the way from the tone of the voice they use when dealing with even the most reasonable requests, especially when the Jobs section of this very forum shows there is no shortage of enthusiastic and motivated people who wish they could do the same job..

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Unhelpfulness from staff is nowhere near as common as it sometimes appears. I personally do my best to ensure I am visible during every trip, wether I am selling tickets or just doing a walk through and if you do need assistance please knock. But remember if its a 4 car set I will be in the very rear cab and not the rear cab of the front set as I have had complaints before until I explained the method of working to them.

 

[455driver]

If you come across a Guard who gives you attitude for knocking on his cab door, tell his TOC! I get deeply irritated when certain colleagues take the attitude that they will deal with the perpetual annoyance that is passengers when they feel like it and not before, if they feel like it at all.

Where did he say he had met a guard with that attitude?

All he said was-

I've often boarded at stations with closed ticket offices and seen no guard come around. Once or twice it crossed my mind to knock, but I thought: If he/she has not come around it will be for a reason. They don't want me knocking on their door!

Nowhere does it say he has ever actually knocked on the cab door and the rest is merely supposition. :roll:
The other side of not going to find the guard (yes I know he doesnt have to) is "I thought if I didnt go looking for the guard I could get a free ride", either scenario fits the not looking for the guard but only one is true.

I get deeply irritated when people guess or make stuff up to fit their agenda with no evidence at all but hey ho this is "nonRailuk" the fare dodgers friend and rail staff hating site!:roll:

 

[Goatboy]

The other side of not going to find the guard (yes I know he doesnt have to) is "I thought if I didnt go looking for the guard I could get a free ride", either scenario fits the not looking for the guard but only one is true.

You really don't like passengers, do you? Whether you intend to or not your posts often come across in a way that suggests you have similar feelings towards the public as you accuse others of having towards staff.

I'd imagine very few peoplewho don't go looking for a guard do so because they want a free ride. Some will, obviously, but there are bad apples in every cart - staff and passengers.

I get deeply irritated when people guess or make stuff up to fit their agenda with no evidence at all but hey ho this is "nonRailuk" the fare dodgers friend and rail staff hating site!:roll:

I've never seen fare dodgers get any sympathy here.