Absurd argument trying to buy a ticket!

[Chapeltom]

I've just had the most absurd experience at Sheffield station. I'm off to the football at Hillsborough this afternoon, and I get on at Chinley an unstaffed station approximately 40 mins from Sheffield. The guard for one reason or another does not come round (I have no issue with that!) and take fares off anyone. The issue here is not with Northern but EMT who are usually fine at Sheffield, but I've never had to buy a ticket into Sheffield before. I usually just go for my plusbus.

I get off the train and head to the ticket office for two reasons:
1) The legal requirement to buy a ticket at the first opportunity
2) I needed a plusbus with my ticket for the tram to the ground!

Now the conversation went roughly like the below:

I ask for a return from Chinley to Sheffield and a plusbus for Sheffield
Clerk: "But your already at Sheffield"
Me: "Yes but I need an inward ticket to get the plusbus, is that correct?"
Clerk: "Yes. You've just come from Chinley?"
Me: "Yes"
Clerk: "I don't believe that the guard hasn't come round on such a long journey"
Me: "Well he didn't! Its not my fault (by now I was frustrated), that's Northern Rail for you. But I need to buy a ticket.
Clerk: Ok.

He sells it eventually, probably forgotten a bit of the conversation but I seriously cannot believe its possible to have such a discussion. I was trying to buy a ticket, I needed a plusbus and did absolutely nothing wrong. Can't the clerk have just sold me what I wanted? He firstly didn't grasp the fact that I wanted a ticket into Sheffield to get a plusbus and two didn't believe a guard hadn't been round. Now why on earth would someone like me want to buy a ticket if I was dodging the fare?

I could have offered to show him my driving licence which shows where I live, but I didn't think that was appropriate at all!

I did not have an attitude at all, I wanted to buy a ticket as legally required and was getting increasingly annoyed that a simple request could not be fulfilled.

Anyone else had a similar problem anywhere?

 

[Ferret]

Thanks for sharing that - it's given me a laugh!

On a serious note though, given not doing as you did could in theory land you in Byelaw 18 and RoR Act hot water, I find it incredible that you should have a protracted discussion while just doing what you're legally required to do!

 

[Greenback]

This may have just been some communication problems. Is it unusual for guards not to come round between Chinley and Sheffield?

It looks as though the clerk mistakenly thought you hadn't just arrived from Chinley, which if the lack of guard is unusual, could be understandable! In which case, saying you need an inward ticket before confirming you have just arrived without a ticket may have muddied the waters further.

I understand that Sheffield is not highly regarded for ticketing matters!

 

[Chapeltom]

Given TOCs (particularly Northern) attitudes towards fare dodging in recent times, I thought I'd do the honest and right thing. And some people wonder why people attempt to dodge fares when the companies don't want it in the first place!!

It looked as if he was refusing to sell me a ticket, now had I walked off and an RPI approached me, where on Earth would that have put me legally? A very grey area I reckon!

 

[Ferret]

I understand that Sheffield is not highly regarded for ticketing matters!

Well, the queues at busy times are quite ridiculous! Leads to many technical breaches of Byelaw 18 I can tell you

 

[Chapeltom]

This may have just been some communication problems. Is it unusual for guards not to come round between Chinley and Sheffield?

It looks as though the clerk mistakenly thought you hadn't just arrived from Chinley, which if the lack of guard is unusual, could be understandable! In which case, saying you need an inward ticket before confirming you have just arrived without a ticket may have muddied the waters further.

I understand that Sheffield is not highly regarded for ticketing matters!

Its highly unusual to get to Sheffield without a ticket, happened twice ever. Today and in November 2009, when I asked the guard for a ticket as I was getting off. That's twice in god knows how many journeys.

 

[Flamingo]

Its highly unusual to get to Sheffield without a ticket, happened twice ever. Today and in November 2009, when I asked the guard for a ticket as I was getting off. That's twice in god knows how many journeys.

Probably why the ticket office had trouble understanding you.

 

[Greenback]

Its highly unusual to get to Sheffield without a ticket, happened twice ever. Today and in November 2009, when I asked the guard for a ticket as I was getting off. That's twice in god knows how many journeys.

It's very unusual between Llanelli and Cardiff as well. Which is why, if it does happen and I have travelled form a station where no ticket facvilities were available, I ensure I approach the window/gateline with the words @I've just arrived from xxx and I would like a ticket please as I have been unable to purchase one until now'.

Always good to establish the basic facts before any misunderstanding (or prosecutions) can occur!

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's very unusual between Llanelli and Cardiff as well. Which is why, if it does happen and I have travelled form a station where no ticket facvilities were available, I ensure I approach the window/gateline with the words @I've just arrived from xxx and I would like a ticket please as I have been unable to purchase one until now'.

Always good to establish the basic facts before any misunderstanding (or prosecutions) can occur!

Theres plenty of dead from the neck up revenue protection staff to consider as well as we've heard on other posts even establishing the facts doesn't stop them treating you as a criminal.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

 

[DelayRepay]

Was it an argument, or was the clerk just trying to make sure he was selling you the right ticket? See the "silly questions" for some examples of things customers ask for. I bet it's not the first time a customer has asked for a ticket from x to y when they actually wanted to go from y to x!

 

[Chapeltom]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

Why should I have had to? The guards on this line ALWAYS sell tickets except on very rare occasions like this! I was under the assumption that as always I'd see the guard. I went to buy a ticket, 40 or so others who got on at unstaffed stations did not.



As for the other poster: I made it very clear, at least twice I wanted a return from Chinley to Sheffield and a plusbus for Sheffield. As I said, you have to have a ticket TO Sheffield to get a plusbus and I asked him to confirm that when he first questioned me. He said "yes" as in you do have to have an inward ticket to Sheffield to get a plusbus and the conversation continued not believing me the guard hadn't been round!!

 

[spacehopper]

I wouldn't take it personally and doesn't really sound like an argument. Agree sometimes when people ask for a ticket they word it slightly differently or if its an odd request ask for clarification. Not having a go at you or refusing to see a ticket maybe just making doubly sure of what your asking for?

Well done on going to booking office! When my machine died yesterday I bet all of the ticketless punters just walked off the station.

 

[IanD]

As I said, you have to have a ticket TO Sheffield to get a plusbus and I asked him to confirm that when he first questioned me. He said "yes" as in you do have to have an inward ticket to Sheffield to get a plusbus and the conversation continued not believing me the guard hadn't been round!!

As you can start your journey with a PlusBus ticket, I think you can buy one with a ticket TO or FROM Sheffied.

Could have saved yourself a couple of quid if you were the fare dodging type.

 

[Bill Badger]

As you can start your journey with a PlusBus ticket, I think you can buy one with a ticket TO or FROM Sheffied.

Could have saved yourself a couple of quid if you were the fare dodging type.

Or simply bought a return to Chinley with a Sheffield Plusbus, which presumably is the same price. Less confusion and no fare dodging

 

[merlodlliw]

What is the price of a tram ticket to the ground, out of interest

 

[WelshBluebird]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

You think a train full of people knocking on the back cab is a reasonable idea??

 

[AlexS]

Well, if one person did, the guard could at least explain over the PA why he isn't selling tickets as he should be, if that was the case. If the machine is broken or there's some other reason he can't sell tickets, then he can tell the passengers that and apologise on behalf of the company. If he's being lazy, then it can serve as a wakeup call to get up and sell tickets. Either way it's not really a problem, if you let the passengers know what's going on they won't bang on the cab door!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Surprised he/she didn't come through as its a commission run. Maybe they had a fault? Who knows. If I do have a dodgy machine I always do the announcemnt why and reprt it tocontrol to cover my backside

 

[SN74LS123N]

Well, if one person did, the guard could at least explain over the PA why he isn't selling tickets as he should be, if that was the case.

The guard already knows perfectly well that he or she isn't selling tickets and that stations at which passengers have boarded do not have ticket issuing facilities. It should not take a knock on the door to make the guard aware of that.

A PA announcement would certainly be helpful, but (as guards in this forum remind us) it's not the passenger's place to pass judgment and offer advice on how or how well a guard is peforming the job.

If the guard cannot sell tickets, for example due to a broken machine, or has chosen not to sell tickets, for example due to other duties (such as safety) which as we all know take priority over revenue, then surely the last thing he or she will welcome is the intrusion of passengers.

And the big heavy opaque locked security door with red warning notices, and no means of attracting attention other than knocking against the acoustic chaos of a train at speed, at the far end of a long and possibly crowded unit, behind which the invisible guard may or may not actually be (especially in the case of multiple ungangwayed units), is not exactly the most customer welcoming process one can think of. The days of a first generation DMU with a guard sat visibly in an open van at the centre of the train are long gone, and it's silly to pretend that guards are still just as available to customers as they used to be. And it is *horribly* open to misinterpretation if you're going towards the rear of the train to find the guard, if in fact the guard is at the front, working towards the rear, but you haven't seen him or her. If anything looks like fare evasion, that does.

These days, "finding the guard" is a ludicrously impractical piece of advice, no matter how many times people here (including, occasionally, a minority of guards) repeat it.

 

[Ferret]

These days, "finding the guard" is a ludicrously impractical piece of advice, no matter how many times people here (including guards) repeat it.

This Guard doesn't!!!

 

[SN74LS123N]

This Guard doesn't!!!

You're right, Mr Ferret, and I'll edit my preceding post to better reflect the facts. Sorry for the minor infraction.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And I haven't since I found out it was a railway myth! ( We got told it WAS the passengers responsibility in training school many moons ago)

 

[455driver]

Would it of been a possiblity of giving the Guard a knock on the cab door?

What?
You want the passenger to help themselves and the staff (who might be having trouble with his crystal ball) to sort the problem.
Its much easier to sit there and then come onto here and moan about "brain dead" staff isnt it! :roll:

Because "there is no requirement" for the passenger to do it then they dont.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The guard already knows perfectly well that he or she isn't selling tickets and that stations at which passengers have boarded do not have ticket issuing facilities.

So the guard should know that the ticket machine at <a station> is accepting card only, no cash, or the ticket machine at <another station> has just been vandalised do they, the passengers couldnt be bothered/ got there too late to buy from the ticket machine etc?

I take it you are another one that doesnt actually know what you are talking about?:roll:

 

[island]

Perhaps the clerk was trying to find evidence that you had failed to buy at the first opportunity and should therefore be sold an anytime ticket? I had such an experience with SWT once which resulted in me missing a connection.

 

[bunnahabhain]

So the guard should know that the ticket machine at <a station> is accepting card only, no cash, or the ticket machine at <another station> has just been vandalised do they, the passengers couldnt be bothered/ got there too late to buy from the ticket machine etc?

I take it you are another one that doesnt actually know what you are talking about?:roll:

To be fair on a small minority of Northern services I've been on in the South Yorkshire area the guard didn't check tickets, or just walked through without stopping calling for any fares. On the other hand I've been on a Huddersfield-Sheffield service and the guard was constantly walking up and down the train. I do think Northern suffer from having a number of guards who perhaps don't go around doing tickets as much as they should.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Can't the clerk have just sold me what I wanted?....

If I only sold the tickets I was asked for, half the passengers I sold tickets to would have the wrong ticket!. I get asked for "a return from Manchester" when they actually want a return to Manchester, or they ask for "an open return to Leeds" when they actually want a day return (with 'open' referring to no time restrictions). There is nothing wrong with confirming things if they are unsure, it is part of their job to do so.

Also, in my experience, of the passengers who do not have opportunity to buy a ticket until reaching the end of their journey at my station, I'd say less then 10% actually do (when they have a choice), making it a bit of a surprise when someone actually chooses to ask for a ticket for the journey they have just finished.

 

[Ferret]

You're right, Mr Ferret, and I'll edit my preceding post to better reflect the facts. Sorry for the minor infraction.

Ha, no apology necessary! I agree with you though - stupid advice! Anyone found a Guard on a DOO train recently?

 

[yorkie]

I've just had the most absurd experience at Sheffield station.

Sheffield? I'm not surprised. It's quite common to experience poor service there. It's due to failings by EMT management rather than individual staff, as it happens far too often to be one or two rogue ticket clerks.

EMT management choose to ignore the issue. They do not take complaints seriously.

Perhaps you could write to Northern to inform them that EMT are reluctant to sell tickets for Northern passengers who require tickets and ask for confirmation that you did the right thing and, if so, could they please write to EMT so that EMT are aware that they should sell such tickets.

You could also write to EMT stating how you understand it is a requirement to buy such a ticket on arrival at Sheffield and seek clarification that this is the correct course of action, and ask why it is that their staff are reluctant to sell tickets in this situation.

On a serious note though, given not doing as you did could in theory land you in Byelaw 18 and RoR Act hot water, I find it incredible that you should have a protracted discussion while just doing what you're legally required to do!

You couldn't possibly be suggesting that the esteemed Rail Company EMT, who treat all rail customers with respect, could possibly be discouraging people from carrying out the very act that avoids a potential prosecution? Surely they would never do such a thing? After all, there's an excellent Rail Regulator to ensure such things don't happen, an effective passenger watchdog who can monitor them, and it's in their interests to keep passengers happy. And the legislation couldn't possibly be biased and unfair....... hang on a minute, sorry I was dreaming!

 

[Chapeltom]

What?
You want the passenger to help themselves and the staff (who might be having trouble with his crystal ball) to sort the problem.
Its much easier to sit there and then come onto here and moan about "brain dead" staff isnt it! :roll:

Because "there is no requirement" for the passenger to do it then they dont.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So the guard should know that the ticket machine at <a station> is accepting card only, no cash, or the ticket machine at <another station> has just been vandalised do they, the passengers couldnt be bothered/ got there too late to buy from the ticket machine etc?

I take it you are another one that doesnt actually know what you are talking about?:roll:

It was not a dig at the guard not selling tickets, my post was about trying to buy a ticket at Sheffield station.

I made it perfectly clear what I wanted at least twice.

I did not think it was reasonable to knock on the guard's door as the guard usually comes round on MAN to SHF trains, as early as within 2 mins of boarding and up to Dore & Totley.