A south coast high speed line?

[Lewlew]

I feel that an upgraded A27 would be better value for money than a high speed train line from London. Getting into London is relatively quick from most places on the South Coast. But getting along the coast can be rather tedious and slow.

 

[MattRat]

I feel that an upgraded A27 would be better value for money than a high speed train line from London. Getting into London is relatively quick from most places on the South Coast. But getting along the coast can be rather tedious and slow.

Well, with upgraded trains, you'll hopefully get less cars on the road....

 

[The Planner]

Presumably a tunnel under the New Forest as well. The verderers aren't going to accept any damage to the forest. That in itself would likely be 20 miles long.

 

[randyrippley]

Presumably a tunnel under the New Forest as well. The verderers aren't going to accept any damage to the forest. That in itself would likely be 20 miles long.

not just the New Forest
you've got to somehow avoid the Dorset heathlands between Bournemouth and Dorchester, and then tunnel through the South Downs chalk west of Dorchester

 

[miklcct]

I don't think this is a good idea.

I think the most economical way to do that is to quadruple existing routes and upgrading them to 200 km/h.

For example, Waterloo - Southampton should be quadrupled all the way and upgraded to 200 km/h, and Southampton - Weymouth straightened to allow 160 km/h running and with the single track upgraded to double.

Passing loops should be built along the coastway and sections straightened to 160 km/h as well.

 

[HSTEd]

not just the New Forest
you've got to somehow avoid the Dorset heathlands between Bournemouth and Dorchester, and then tunnel through the South Downs chalk west of Dorchester

Given the mess HS2 got itself into, its almost certain that future high speed projects, if they occur, will be increasingly dominated by tunnels.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, with upgraded trains, you'll hopefully get less cars on the road....

Brighton to Southampton is basically a continuous stretch of developed area. Unless a high speed line has numerous stations, all in built up areas, then people are still going to be using cars to get to it. Or existing trains, and then you need to add interchange stations in appropriate intermediate places.

As others point out I believe a high speed E/W alignment would be impossible to build without the vast majority being underground, and even then much would have to be under water, eg if directly serving Portsmouth.

But if you’re contemplating tunnelling all over the place, why not use fairly short tunnels in the Winchester area to fully four track Basingstoke to Southampton, and run Waterloo to Southampton at 100 mph throughout, or faster if AC electrified?

 

[RobShipway]

Brighton to Southampton is basically a continuous stretch of developed area. Unless a high speed line has numerous stations, all in built up areas, then people are still going to be using cars to get to it. Or existing trains, and then you need to add interchange stations in appropriate intermediate places.

As others point out I believe a high speed E/W alignment would be impossible to build without the vast majority being underground, and even then much would have to be under water, eg if directly serving Portsmouth.

But if you’re contemplating tunnelling all over the place, why not use fairly short tunnels in the Winchester area to fully four track Basingstoke to Southampton, and run Waterloo to Southampton at 100 mph throughout, or faster if AC electrified?

I have to totally agree with the above comment. I think with having to built tunelling all over the place, the cost of the project would be too much for any government to pay out and you would have to increase fares to an amount that possibly most people would not be able to afford to pay for it.

 

[JonathanH]

I have to totally agree with the above comment. I think with having to built tunelling all over the place, the cost of the project would be too much for any government to pay out and you would have to increase fares to an amount that possibly most people would not be able to afford to pay for it.

This whole thread is all pie in the sky thinking anyway. Realistically there just isn't demand to pay for any level of enhancement on the south's railways now. As posters have pointed out in another thread the collapse in peak demand on the Portsmouth direct means that only two trains an hour can be justified from Waterloo to Portsmouth.

Southern can only justify the half hourly service from Brighton to Southampton / Portsmouth. SWR no longer run the slower Southampton train, just the 2tph Weymouth services. CrossCountry can't justify an hourly service south of Reading. Nothing points to anyone having to afford anything.

It is possible that a 'proper metro' along parts of the south coast network would actually be better spending than a faster service, but with trains to Brighton now running half hourly from the west coastway, it isn't obvious that the demand (or political will) is there for that either.

 

[AM9]

Brighton to Southampton is basically a continuous stretch of developed area. Unless a high speed line has numerous stations, all in built up areas, then people are still going to be using cars to get to it. Or existing trains, and then you need to add interchange stations in appropriate intermediate places.

As others point out I believe a high speed E/W alignment would be impossible to build without the vast majority being underground, and even then much would have to be under water, eg if directly serving Portsmouth.

But if you’re contemplating tunnelling all over the place, why not use fairly short tunnels in the Winchester area to fully four track Basingstoke to Southampton, and run Waterloo to Southampton at 100 mph throughout, or faster if AC electrified?

As we've noted before, the SWML has alignments that would favour higher speed services (200kph?) so the relative simplicity of judicious 4-tracking would give a good return. That would be easily justified if the existing 3rd rail east of Basingstoke was progressively replaced with ac as it reached end of life.

 

[brad465]

not just the New Forest
you've got to somehow avoid the Dorset heathlands between Bournemouth and Dorchester, and then tunnel through the South Downs chalk west of Dorchester

If I was doing this I wouldn't bother with a new high speed line through this area, I'd just upgrade the existing line from Southampton through to Dorchester, then construct a new line, not of high speed design to save costs on a relatively short stretch that isn't beneficial, going via Bridport, Charmouth and then joining the West of England mainline somewhere around where Seaton Junction used to be, which would then be combined with upgrading the existing route through to Exeter, primarily by redoubling it. The hardest bit would be the new line between Dorchester and Seaton Jct, not just due to the topography and geology, but pre-Beeching no rout existed through there, except for a few branch lines on a North-South alignment.

 

[MattRat]

This whole thread is all pie in the sky thinking anyway. Realistically there just isn't demand to pay for any level of enhancement on the south's railways now. As posters have pointed out in another thread the collapse in peak demand on the Portsmouth direct means that only two trains an hour can be justified from Waterloo to Portsmouth.

Southern can only justify the half hourly service from Brighton to Southampton / Portsmouth. SWR no longer run the slower Southampton train, just the 2tph Weymouth services. CrossCountry can't justify an hourly service south of Reading. Nothing points to anyone having to afford anything.

It is possible that a 'proper metro' along parts of the south coast network would actually be better spending than a faster service, but with trains to Brighton now running half hourly from the west coastway, it isn't obvious that the demand (or political will) is there for that either.

There's not demand from London, but there might be demand from up North, which is why I suggested to connect it to HS2.

 

[PTR 444]

If I was doing this I wouldn't bother with a new high speed line through this area, I'd just upgrade the existing line from Southampton through to Dorchester, then construct a new line, not of high speed design to save costs on a relatively short stretch that isn't beneficial, going via Bridport, Charmouth and then joining the West of England mainline somewhere around where Seaton Junction used to be, which would then be combined with upgrading the existing route through to Exeter, primarily by redoubling it. The hardest bit would be the new line between Dorchester and Seaton Jct, not just due to the topography and geology, but pre-Beeching no rout existed through there, except for a few branch lines on a North-South alignment.

This probably isn’t a good idea for a London - Exeter route, as even with a full SWML upgrade it would still be slower than going via the WofE Line (which in itself takes twice long as the Reading - Taunton Line). Even for a local service, the demand just isn’t there for rail to Bridport and Lyme Regis, and Weymouth to Exeter would probably still be quicker going via Yeovil anyway.

The idea of upgrading an existing line to high speeds rather than building one in itself isn’t a terrible idea though, particularly if the demand isn’t there for a new line but the existing one could benefit from a faster service. I’ve often wondered whether it would be practical to heavily upgrade the Reading - Taunton Line to an “HS3” to the South West rather than build a new alignment*, considering that the line was sort of built as a 19th-century equivalent of a high speed line anyway - It replaced the original GWR “long way round” via Bristol.

*Certain stretches could be straightened to allow 140+mph running, but where it already allows the track infrastructure could be left alone.

 

[randyrippley]

If I was doing this I wouldn't bother with a new high speed line through this area, I'd just upgrade the existing line from Southampton through to Dorchester, then construct a new line, not of high speed design to save costs on a relatively short stretch that isn't beneficial, going via Bridport, Charmouth and then joining the West of England mainline somewhere around where Seaton Junction used to be, which would then be combined with upgrading the existing route through to Exeter, primarily by redoubling it. The hardest bit would be the new line between Dorchester and Seaton Jct, not just due to the topography and geology, but pre-Beeching no rout existed through there, except for a few branch lines on a North-South alignment.

Those north-south branches all follow the river valleys, your new route would need long base tunnels through the chalk followed by multiple viaducts crossing the valleys. When the LSWR got to Dorchester they took one look and said "too difficult" so went to Weymouth, instead heading west via Yeovil, skirting the Dorset Downs and following the River Axe. Technically it could probably be done but the cost would be high, with no population centres or industries en route. And there's the environmental factor - does anyone really think a tunnel is going to be allowed under Maiden Castle?

 

[Grecian 1998]

I’ve often wondered whether it would be practical to heavily upgrade the Reading - Taunton Line to an “HS3” to the South West rather than build a new alignment*, considering that the line was sort of built as a 19th-century equivalent of a high speed line anyway - It replaced the original GWR “long way round” via Bristol.

It wasn't really built that way - a number of different lines were built in piecemeal fashion which the GWR then realised they could connect to create a through line at the end of the 19th century e.g. the Castle Cary - Westbury section was built as part of a through Paddington - Weymouth via Melksham route in the 1850s. Two different bits of line were built between Westbury and Pewsey, and Taunton and Castle Cary at the start of the 20th century to create a more direct route.

The Reading - Taunton line itself wasn't particularly straight and was no faster than the Waterloo - Exeter route into the 1960s. Gerry Fiennes' 'I Tried to Run a Railway' states that the route was chosen as the primary route as there was no need for a reversal at Exeter St Davids (the primary route to Plymouth was definitely the coastal route) and the climb between St Davids and Central was avoided. I think Reading - Taunton was significantly upgraded around the time of HST introduction in 1979, but I suspect it would be difficult to improve it much more than has been done already.

Those north-south branches all follow the river valleys, your new route would need long base tunnels through the chalk followed by multiple viaducts crossing the valleys. When the LSWR got to Dorchester they took one look and said "too difficult" so went to Weymouth, instead heading west via Yeovil, skirting the Dorset Downs and following the River Axe. Technically it could probably be done but the cost would be high, with no population centres or industries en route. And there's the environmental factor - does anyone really think a tunnel is going to be allowed under Maiden Castle?

Indeed. The buses in West Dorset are popular during daytime in the summer but rarely full even then, and usage plummets around 6pm (as do the services). The A35 is pretty much the only major road in the area and hasn't been significantly upgraded since a string of bypasses were opened in the 1990s. There was widespread opposition to the proposed Chideock bypass. The terrain might make it difficult to widen the road, but that doesn't seem to have stopped the A38 being dualled west of Exeter. The fact that hasn't been done despite the fact it would be far cheaper and more populist than building a railway indicates there isn't much of a push for improvements.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's not demand from London, but there might be demand from up North, which is why I suggested to connect it to HS2.

If there’s not demand from London - the largest and most concentrated area of population and economic activity in Europe - there won’t be demand from ‘up north’.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The Reading - Taunton line itself wasn't particularly straight and was no faster than the Waterloo - Exeter route into the 1960s. Gerry Fiennes' 'I Tried to Run a Railway' states that the route was chosen as the primary route as there was no need for a reversal at Exeter St Davids (the primary route to Plymouth was definitely the coastal route) and the climb between St Davids and Central was avoided.

He also describes the route between Reading and Castle Cary as "a thoroughly bad railway" and explains that it "turns sharply as often as the river."

 

[JohnRegular]

The idea of upgrading an existing line to high speeds rather than building one in itself isn’t a terrible idea though, particularly if the demand isn’t there for a new line but the existing one could benefit from a faster service. I’ve often wondered whether it would be practical to heavily upgrade the Reading - Taunton Line to an “HS3” to the South West rather than build a new alignment*, considering that the line was sort of built as a 19th-century equivalent of a high speed line anyway - It replaced the original GWR “long way round” via Bristol.

*Certain stretches could be straightened to allow 140+mph running, but where it already allows the track infrastructure could be left alone.

There are definitely a few meanders that could be straightened if you were happy to break out the chequebook and the diggers- the curves near Lavington spring to mind. How much time that would save, I don't know. Others, e.g. around Bedwyn/Savernake, are non starters because you'd start requiring tunnels and bridges.

I'd also be concerned about the impact on local services if you started running trains so fast on the B&H, especially with Devizes Parkway station in the works.

Broadly, though, I agree that new high speed lines just aren't required in the south. South and east of London, distances are too short to get much benefit from high speeds (Kent's HS1 services are a lucky bonus), and elsewhere most of the trunk routes are well enough engineered/aligned (SWML, GWML, B&H) that you're probably better off just upgrading them where possible. I suspect Devon and Cornwall, which would have the most to gain, would benefit more from local upgrades than a brand new shiny high speed line duplicating the B&H, for example.

 

[MattRat]

If there’s not demand from London - the largest and most concentrated area of population and economic activity in Europe - there won’t be demand from ‘up north’.

Most English tourists in Spain are scousers. Other cities can produce demand too. And never underestimate a Northerner's desire to be in the sun, and the South Coast gets more of it than the North.

 

[Bald Rick]

Most English tourists in Spain are scousers.

Ha ha! I presume you’re joking.

 

[Lewlew]

Most English tourists in Spain are scousers. Other cities can produce demand too. And never underestimate a Northerner's desire to be in the sun, and the South Coast gets more of it than the North.

Do you actually live in the UK?

 

[cle]

There are definitely a few meanders that could be straightened if you were happy to break out the chequebook and the diggers- the curves near Lavington spring to mind. How much time that would save, I don't know. Others, e.g. around Bedwyn/Savernake, are non starters because you'd start requiring tunnels and bridges.

I'd also be concerned about the impact on local services if you started running trains so fast on the B&H, especially with Devizes Parkway station in the works.

Broadly, though, I agree that new high speed lines just aren't required in the south. South and east of London, distances are too short to get much benefit from high speeds (Kent's HS1 services are a lucky bonus), and elsewhere most of the trunk routes are well enough engineered/aligned (SWML, GWML, B&H) that you're probably better off just upgrading them where possible. I suspect Devon and Cornwall, which would have the most to gain, would benefit more from local upgrades than a brand new shiny high speed line duplicating the B&H, for example.

I do have a great old poster which shows the line from Waterloo to Exeter as being nearly as straight as the B&H. After Exeter it has Okehampton, Launceston, Wadebridge and Padstow - and I always wonder if that little collection of towns in a row having a direct London service today would add up to something.

Of course it doesn't have the line speed or the double track throughout, but I do think it is somewhat underused. Maybe an hourly Reading - WoE/Wessex service in future would be a doable improvement, if Waterloo paths couldn't be found, or were needed for full length trains. For connections, any local journeys, new frequency or speeding up other journeys - who knows. I think currently there are 3-4 Reading to Salisbury. But there is a deficit with the cutting of Waterloo to Bristol services especially Bradford and Trowbridge which I think could be better - once future rail recovery/demand settles and becomes a clearer steady state. Hard to see much growth right now.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately you have the same problem with upgrades as you do with upgrades everywhere else.

Just too many stacked bottlenecks, eventually you end up having to basically build a new line from scratch to get anywhere.
And modern high performance trains allow you to go fast enough to pull traffic from multiple main lines.

 

[RobShipway]

Rather than creating new lines, where possible would it maybe be better if demand levels require it to be re - opening lines closed back in the Mid 1960s to early 1970s, if the path for those lines still exist?

Would some of these lines being rebuilt and re - opened help elevate the bottlenecks such as Dawlish for example?

 

[randyrippley]

Rather than creating new lines, where possible would it maybe be better if demand levels require it to be re - opening lines closed back in the Mid 1960s to early 1970s, if the path for those lines still exist?

Would some of these lines being rebuilt and re - opened help elevate the bottlenecks such as Dawlish for example?

So which abandoned route to Exeter were you thinking of?

 

[JamesT]

So which abandoned route to Exeter were you thinking of?

And is the alignment of an old line likely to be suitable for high speed running?
I believe we’ve seen from projects such as East West Rail that rebuilding an old alignment is as expensive as building new.

 

[Grecian 1998]

The merits (or lack of) reopening the Okehampton route have been discussed to death on a dedicated thread.

The only other route which might be considered duplicate is the Teign Valley route for Exeter - Newton Abbot. It was a twisting single track branch line with single line infrastructure which closed 5 years before most people had heard of Dr Beeching, because traffic was virtually non-existent. The half mile long single track tunnel at Perridge has collapsed. Some of the trackbed is under the A38.

Frankly, if the Treasury suddenly decided due to a drunken bet to make the funds available to reopen all bar two closed railway lines in Devon and Cornwall, the Teign Valley would still be a candidate to miss out.

 

[miklcct]

And is the alignment of an old line likely to be suitable for high speed running?
I believe we’ve seen from projects such as East West Rail that rebuilding an old alignment is as expensive as building new.

Great Western Main Line is a century-old railway yet it's still possible to upgrade it to high speed running.

 

[Arkeeos]

How would it even be possible to get into the city centres of these cities without ungodly amounts of tunneling? To make the cost even somewhat reasonable virtually every stop would have to be an out of city station except for the one in London and the one at the end.

 

[RobShipway]

The merits (or lack of) reopening the Okehampton route have been discussed to death on a dedicated thread.

The only other route which might be considered duplicate is the Teign Valley route for Exeter - Newton Abbot. It was a twisting single track branch line with single line infrastructure which closed 5 years before most people had heard of Dr Beeching, because traffic was virtually non-existent. The half mile long single track tunnel at Perridge has collapsed. Some of the trackbed is under the A38.

Frankly, if the Treasury suddenly decided due to a drunken bet to make the funds available to reopen all bar two closed railway lines in Devon and Cornwall, the Teign Valley would still be a candidate to miss out.

Okehampton is what I had in mind and I know that the merits of reopening it have been discussed to death. However, I do think reopening such lines where possible is better than carving up more of the countryside and farmland of the UK.