A question about my advanced tickets

[IanPooleTrains]

I would have put this up earlier but couldn't because of something completely ridiculous

Saturday, I went from Rugeley Town to Chesterfield on advanced tickets and showed my ticket on the first part of my journey with no problems and continued on my way.

The second part of my journey, the conductor comes up and sees my ticket and asks for my reservation ticket. I politely inform him that there was no reservation for that part of the journey, only for the final part of the journey but the guard asked to see that reservation

I politely ask him why he requires to see a reservation that had nothing to do with his company and he says 'because he had to make sure I was travelling at the right time'

My question is, did I have to show him the reservation for a train that had nothing to do with his company or not?

And before someone comes in on his high horse and gives me a public dressing down, this has nothing to do with the guard's conduct, this is a general query!

 

[Mojo]

Do I take it that you were travelling on three separate trains? What was the train you were on when asked?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Do I take it that you were travelling on three separate trains? What was the train you were on when asked?

Yes Mojo, I had to make two different connections at New Street and Derby.

All I will say for the train I was asked on was a Cross Country service, I won't give exact details unless you require them, when the resveration was for the East Midlands Trains from Derby to Chesterfield

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes you do, as the advance fare is not valid without the accompanying reservation. He has to check the ticket is valid on his train, there is no other way to do this.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Yes you do, as the advance fare is not valid without the accompanying reservation. He has to check the ticket is valid on his train, there is no other way to do this.

But, the reservation was not for HIS train but for the connection afterwards

 

[ralphchadkirk]

But, the reservation was not for HIS train but for the connection afterwards

I think HHF's point was the guard doesn't know that, and wished to check whether the reservation was for his train or not. If there is no reservation then the ticket isn't valid, if there is, then it is. Thus the guard will ask to see it, and if it isn't for his train, no problem. But he should check. Or am I misunderstanding you HHF?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If I had a reservation for the second leg of my journey at 1050, any train I catch on the first leg must be timed to arrive before 1050. If the guard was not allowed to check the reservation for the second leg, what is to stop me using the ticket at 2050?

In any case does the Advance ticket not state on it something along the lines of "Valid only with reservation"?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Okay, let me explain myself further and now watch the hate flying in:

My journey on Saturday was the following:

0810 Rugeley Town to Birmingham New Street (London Midland)
0919 Birmingham New Street to Derby (Cross Country)
1018 Derby to Chesterfield (EMT - the only reservation coupon that I had)

and on the way back:

1339 Chesterfield to Derby (EMT - the only reservation coupon I had)
1406 Derby to Birmingham New Street (Cross Country)
1507 Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Town (London Midland)

I am well aware of what the advance ticket requires and so on and so forth because me and my brother have done advanced on many an occasion, my issue is not with that. My issue which I require explation for is should the Cross Country guard have asked to see a reseravtion coupon that was nothing in connection with his train because they didn't give me a coupon for that train when I booked them online

 

[yorkie]

The ticket is only valid if the reservation coupon(s) are produced, therefore I see no reason for refusing to show the complete ticket, including coupons, on request.

If you don't want XC guards to know what EMT trains you are going to travel on (or have travelled on) then the solution would be to purchase separate tickets. If you don't mind them knowing then I do not see a problem.

 

[wintonian]

What type of ticket did you use on the XC leg was it an advance (&conections) or an SVR, SSR etc?

 

[junglejames]

Its not exactly necessary, but i suppose he was just checking that you were travelling at around the right time of day. Even if you werent though, its down to the EMT guard to do something about it, not the XC guard. So, whilst i cant see that it makes much difference to the XC guard, I can possibly see what he is saying. But he couldnt have done much no matter what time the reservation said.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh and yes, as Yorkie says, it does say its only valid with reservation coupon. So whilst the XC guard couldnt do much, no matter when you were travelling, it does need to be shown if he asks.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

What type of ticket did you use on the XC leg?

All of it was an advanced ticket, the whole route was an advanced ticket there and advanced ticket back

The ticket is only valid if the reservation coupon(s) are produced, therefore I see no reason for refusing to show the complete ticket, including coupons, on request.

If you don't want XC guards to know what EMT trains you are going to travel on (or have travelled on) then the solution would be to purchase separate tickets. If you don't mind them knowing then I do not see a problem.

Once again Mr. Go Off On A Different Tangent comes in and gets the complete wrong end of the Pendolino

I know how an advance ticket works, as I have said, me and my brother have used the advanced tickets before but, as I am sure he will atestify to if he should poke his head around, there have been occasions when we only get those little coupons for certain parts of journey and not for other parts.

Now, as I have previously explained and am quite frankly sick to the back teeth of explaining, the only coupon that I recieved when I booked my advanced tickets was for the East Midlands Trains portion of the journey. I did not get a coupon for the London Midland portion of the journey and I did not get a coupon for the Cross Country part of the journey. I showed him the reservation no problem but the reservation is nothing to do with Cross Country of that train I travelled on

As for you telling me to purchase separate tickets:

Rugeley Town to Birmingham New Street return = £6.00 standard return
Birmingham New Street to Derby = £13.70 standard return, £15.00 advanced
Derby to Chesterfield return = £8.80 return

Meaning it would have cost me £28.50 if i segregated my journey

Whereas:

Rugeley Town to Chesterfield = £11.50
Chesterfield to Rugeley Town = £11.50

Meaning it DID cost me £23.00

Meaning I saved myself £5.50

I would like to point out that I just brought you FACT yorkie. Hold on, let me just say that word again; FACT and damn that felt good!

 

[bnm]

Look at that molehill over there. Think we can make it as big as Kilimanjaro?

Once again Mr. Go Off On A Different Tangent comes in and gets the complete wrong end of the Pendolino

Where it would appear you are also residing as well with your tangenital subsequent posting about fares.

Pot. Kettle.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Look at that molehill over there. Think we can make it as big as Kilimanjaro?

I'm already looking at a hill outside of my window thanks, it's called Diner's Knob

That is truth by the way and not anything else

 

[OwlMan]

All of it was an advanced ticket, the whole route was an advanced ticket there and advanced ticket back



Once again Mr. Go Off On A Different Tangent comes in and gets the complete wrong end of the Pendolino

I know how an advance ticket works, as I have said, me and my brother have used the advanced tickets before but, as I am sure he will atestify to if he should poke his head around, there have been occasions when we only get those little coupons for certain parts of journey and not for other parts.

Now, as I have previously explained and am quite frankly sick to the back teeth of explaining, the only coupon that I recieved when I booked my advanced tickets was for the East Midlands Trains portion of the journey. I did not get a coupon for the London Midland portion of the journey and I did not get a coupon for the Cross Country part of the journey. I showed him the reservation no problem but the reservation is nothing to do with Cross Country of that train I travelled on

But an Advanced Ticket is only valid with the reservation coupon - FACT!! Without it it is not valid whether the reservation is for that train or another one!
How does the guard know that you are not travelling on the wrong train and that the reserved part of the journey is the part that you are now on and was only valid on the previous train.

Peter

 

[yorkie]

IanPooleTrains - I am sorry you do not like my advice but I do not feel I was going off on a tangent. I am not suggesting you require a reservation for the leg you were on, but I am stating that, if asked to show it, then you do have to show it.

I am absolutely not telling you to use a combination of tickets, however if, and only if, you do not wish to show the XC guard a reservation coupon for your EMT service, then the only way to do that is to purchase a separate ticket. If you do not mind the XC guard seeing your reservation, then of course continue to purchase Advance tickets.

 

[LexyBoy]

Not really sure what you're getting at - hairyhandedfool, ralphchardkirk and yorkie have all answered your question - you did have to show your reservation to the XC guard because the ticket is valid only with the reservation. Without seeing it, the guard doesn't know which service the reservation is for, and even if it's not for their train, needs to check that you're on a train which can connect with your reserved service.

 

[wintonian]

From the NCoC:

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable to hand over for inspection a valid ticket.

As you know an advance ticket is not valid without the accompanying reservation.

How would the guard know if your ticket was valid without seeing the reservation?

 

[bb21]

I think that the difficulty the XC guard faced was that he did not know whether a reservation coupon had been issued for the XC leg as the ticket itself would have just said something like "issued as 2 coupons" on it, unless he sees the reservation coupon itself. As it happened, the reservation was for the EMT leg, hence I am inclined to agree with junglejames in that although the XC guard wouldn't have been able to do much else, he is entitled to check that you have a valid ticket, which would not have been the case had the reservation coupon been for the XC leg and for a different train, as per the T&C's of AP fares. The XC guard would not know which leg of the journey the reservation coupon applied to unless he sees the coupon itself. So yes I think he is entitled to see it.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Right then, let's try this for the last time! :roll:

The ONLY coupon that i recieved and had with my advanced tickets was on the East Midlands Trains service for a reserved seat. I couldn't get a reserved seat on the Cross Country service going either way and I couldn't get a reserved seat on the London Midland service therefore no coupon was issued.

I did say, and said it in the original post, I asked the guard why he required to see a coupon that had nothing to do with the service that he was guard for.

I'm not stupid, I'm not thick, I'm not mentally challenged, I'm not someone who doesn't know what they are doing, I know how the advanced ticket works but why ask for a coupon that has nothing to do with his train when I even told him that there was no coupon for his train?

I could have easily turned around and told him no, I wasn;t going to show him but then what would have happened? I would have been charged and I would have refused to pay and then the police would be involved etc. etc. etc, yada, yada, yada and after some stuff I have had to put up with recently, I don't need that kind of crap going on

 

[John @ home]

does the Advance ticket not state on it something along the lines of "Valid only with reservation"?

Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. I used to think it depended on which type of ticket machine was used to print the ticket. But a more recent experience has made me think it may be related to which site has been used to purchase the ticket.

It would certainly be clearer, and leave little room for questions such as this, if the Advance travel ticket always said "Valid only with reservation(s)" and the Advance reservation always said "Valid only with travel ticket".

I did encounter some doubt from the guards recently when using the correct trains with a Chesterfield - Coventry route XC & Connections ticket where the only reserved leg was on an EMT train.

 

[yorkie]

Right then, let's try this for the last time! :roll:

The ONLY coupon that i recieved and had with my advanced tickets was on the East Midlands Trains service for a reserved seat. I couldn't get a reserved seat on the Cross Country service going either way and I couldn't get a reserved seat on the London Midland service therefore no coupon was issued.

I did say, and said it in the original post, I asked the guard why he required to see a coupon that had nothing to do with the service that he was guard for.

Yes, we all understand and accept what you are saying, but we have answered why the guard can request to see it. This is because the ticket is only valid with it, and as bb21 says, he can (normally) check how many coupons are issued.

I'm not stupid, I'm not thick, I'm not mentally challenged, I'm not someone who doesn't know what they are doing, I know how the advanced ticket works but why ask for a coupon that has nothing to do with his train?

He is entitled to see the entire ticket including all coupons. If he asks to see it, you have to show it.

I could have easily turned around and told him no, I wasn;t going to show him but then what would have happened? I would have been charged and I would have refused to pay and then the police would be involved etc. etc. etc, yada, yada, yada and after some stuff I have had to put up with recently, I don't need that kind of crap going on

In which case you simply show the complete ticket with all applicable coupon(s), which in this case was just the one coupon.

I am unsure what the problem is?

I did encounter some doubt from the guards recently when using the correct trains with a Chesterfield - Coventry route XC & Connections ticket where the only reserved leg was on an EMT train.

All sorts of things are possible. I would say that if the customer attempted to withhold coupons from a guard, the guard may be suspicious, but otherwise, providing all coupons were showed on request, I don't see that a guard should have a problem. I recently collected some tickets were the reservations and tickets were on different stock (this is because the machine has two printers, and was loaded with one type of stock in one printer, and another stock in the other printer) and some also printed a "normal" reservation that did not say "mandatory" and also did not say "valid only with reservations".

I believe the vast majority of guards will not be checking every little detail and will give the benefit of any doubt, except in situations where the customer is trying to withhold coupons, then that would seem suspect. If the OP is doing nothing wrong (and I have no reason to believe he was doing anything wrong) then I do not see any reason to ask why a guard needs to see the coupons, to ask that question is likely to make the guard suspicious. My friendly advice would be to simply show all coupons without fuss.

 

[wintonian]

Without a reservation an advance ticket is not valid and therefore the holder would be in breach of condition22 as above as they would be unable to show a valid ticket.

It doesn’t matter if the reservation is of any relevance to the train being travelled on.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I did say, and said it in the original post, I asked the guard why he required to see a coupon that had nothing to do with the service that he was guard for.

Doesn't matter. The reservation coupon makes the ticket valid. You have to show it when asked, along with the ticket, regardless of whether it's for that train or not.

I'm not stupid, I'm not thick, I'm not mentally challenged, I'm not someone who doesn't know what they are doing, I know how the advanced ticket works but why ask for a coupon that has nothing to do with his train when I even told him that there was no coupon for his train?

As has been said, it makes the ticket valid. The guard needs to see the reservation regardless of whether it's for his/her train or not.

I could have easily turned around and told him no, I wasn;t going to show him but then what would have happened? I would have been charged and I would have refused to pay and then the police would be involved etc. etc. etc, yada, yada, yada and after some stuff I have had to put up with recently, I don't need that kind of crap going on

Then you would be considered to have no ticket, and would be liable for a s5 RoRA or a Byelaw prosecution.

 

[MikeWh]

Is it possible that this thread also give a clue as to the validity of an "&connections" ticket on a service that could in itself be reservable?

 

[transportphoto]

Hi IPT - Please don't take this as offensive.

As said above there would have been no harm to show the staff of the train company or its agent a reservation coupon. I know you didn't get issued a reservation for that particular train but how is the guard suppose to know that?

I wouldn't have cost you anything, time, money or otherwise.

TBF - I think this thread has run its very short course.

TP

 

[ralphchadkirk]

In fact, it is a requirement to show the guard your ticket and reservation coupons when asked.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Hi IPT - Please don't take this as offensive.

As said above there would have been no harm to show the staff of the train company or its agent a reservation coupon. I know you didn't get issued a reservation for that particular train but how is the guard suppose to know that?

I wouldn't have cost you anything, time, money or otherwise.

TBF - I think this thread has run its very short course.

TP

Thank you transportphoto, I don't take this as offensive because I like to think we have a good relationship on this forum. As I have also explained, I did show him said coupon

TBH, I think it has run its course as well because The Hate Squad are in town

 

[Railjet]

IPT - for someone who's just come back from the dead, so to speak, you seem to be cruisin' for a bruisin' yet again.

Why antagonise everyone?

 

[transportphoto]

Thank you transportphoto, I don't take this as offensive because I like to think we have a good relationship on this forum. As I have also explained, I did show him said coupon

TBH, I think it has run its course as well because The Hate Squad are in town

Sorry - didn't want to get caught up with it all and only brisk read'it

BTW - I added you on FB the other week