A question about headcodes - why 'V' for Western?

[II]

Many on here will know that trains that crossing over the old BR regional borders still tend to have the letter code denoting their final destination. For example, 4M52 is the 11:32 Southampton Eastern Docks to Castle Bromwich, and 1S15 is the 12:00 Kings Cross to Inverness.

The full list is:
M - Midland Region
S - Scottish Region
E - Eastern Region
O - Southern Region
V - Western Region

I can understand why Southern Region ones use an 'O' as the letter 'S' is already taken, but is there a historical reason why 'V' is used for Western Region, and not the obvious choice of 'W'?

 

[Muzer]

Western Region's old electromechanical train describers didn't have a "W". If they had used "W" for Western the trains wouldn't be able to be described in the Western Region!


EDIT: Here is a video of one being restored by Swindon Panel. Note the lack of W.

 

[GW43125]

1S15 is the 12:00 Kings Cross to Inverness.

That's 1S16, apologies for the extreme pedantry.

 

[II]

Western Region's old electromechanical train describers didn't have a "W". If they had used "W" for Western the trains wouldn't be able to be described in the Western Region!
EDIT: Here is a video of one being restored by Swindon Panel. Note the lack of W.

Thanks for that, indeed I do remember Oxford PSB getting a train mixed up back in the 80s as all 'S' code trains were coded as 'M' on the train describer, as the 'S' was also missing and once when there was severe disruption a 1M04 (or similar) was misinterpreted as exactly that and not the 1S04 it actually was. It begs the question why 'S' and 'W' were missing when other non-regional letters were on there?

 

[6Gman]

I suspect W was unused because of the danger of confusion with V (though both E and F were widely used).

 

[Harpers Tate]

So it wasn't because the Vestern Region had German Diesel-Hydraulics then?
(asked with a teutonic accent, preferably).

Just a thought.

 

[IanXC]

Western Region's old electromechanical train describers didn't have a "W". If they had used "W" for Western the trains wouldn't be able to be described in the Western Region!

This is exactly the reason! Beat me to it!

Its also worth mentioning that the original scheme had N for the then North Eastern Region, which is why East Coast mainline services terminating in Newcastle are typically N headcoded, along with N turning up on the Tyne Valley.

Another worthy of mention is 1Axx, which other than in Scotland for obvious reasons, is used (exclusively?) for services originating within the region and going to the 'region's own' London terminal.

 

[Leo1961]

Can I suggest that W was left out due to its width?

If you look at the width of the V and then imagine trying to get the extra strokes in the same space, I think it should be clear that it would lose its clarity.

 

[Master29]

V is only used on crosscountry or ATW trains afaik. Not sure of any GWR trains. I may have to stand corrected though. Could be a regional clash

 

[83G/84D]

Cornish branch lines now have a letter according to destination in most cases.

2Gxx - Gunnislake
2Lxx -Looe
2Nxx - Newquay
2Fxx - To Falmouth
2Txx - From Falmouth

St Ives branch trains all 2Axx.

 

[Muzer]

V is only used on crosscountry or ATW trains afaik. Not sure of any GWR trains. I may have to stand corrected though. Could be a regional clash

V should be used in almost all class 1 trains from some other region to the Western Region. Notable exceptions include the Pompey to Cardiffs, which (for whatever reason) ended up with a 1F headcode; and the Waterloo to Exeters which have 1L headcodes. But you'll find this on eg Waterloo to Bristols too.

 

[Muzer]

This is exactly the reason! Beat me to it!

Its also worth mentioning that the original scheme had N for the then North Eastern Region, which is why East Coast mainline services terminating in Newcastle are typically N headcoded, along with N turning up on the Tyne Valley.

Another worthy of mention is 1Axx, which other than in Scotland for obvious reasons, is used (exclusively?) for services originating within the region and going to the 'region's own' London terminal.

Not quite exclusively. 1A seems to be used in both directions for London to Brighton trains; even-numbered ones go to Brighton from Victoria.

 

[Mag_seven]

1R20 the 04.28 from Glasgow Central to Euston on Mondays to Fridays is the only Southbound Anglo-Scottish service not to carry an M, E, O or V headcode.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y80564/2018/01/31/advanced

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I can see this becoming a rather long discussion. Those who, like me, first came into contact with "headcodes" (more accurately called Train Reporting Numbers today) back in solid BR days (1970s) will remember all sorts of conventions about the use of the letter component of headcodes. The only significant change was L coming into use for Anglia Region when that was created. In more recent years these conventions have started breaking down under the combination of new regular through services and higher frequencies coupled to the gradual centralisation of signalling in larger facilities covering much larger areas. In general the regional codes are still used in the time honoured manner but can also be used in places where there is no risk of confusion. OTOH the other practice of setting the letter according to destination area is being replaced on some routes by route-specific codes even on routes that cross the traditional regional boundaries. If we're all going to chip in with the bits of the system that we're familiar with it's going to take a while!

 

[Muzer]

1R20 the 04.28 from Glasgow Central to Euston on Mondays to Fridays is the only Southbound Anglo-Scottish service not to carry an M, E, O or V headcode.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y80564/2018/01/31/advanced

Interesting! Any reason why? Did it used to start from further south?

Shaw S Hunter: I agree. I'm interested in the timings of a lot of these things, though. For instance, I think 1V/1O headcodes were used on the Waterloo-Exeters in the 1980s, but when was this changed to the current 1Ls? And what about the Pompey to Cardiffs (actually, for that matter, I don't even know when that service came to be...)

 

[Mag_seven]

Interesting! Any reason why? Did it used to start from further south?

All I know is is that its to comply with the rule that all UP peak Virgin West Coast services to Euston have an "R" code (rather than "A" or "S").

 

[bb21]

V is only used on crosscountry or ATW trains afaik. Not sure of any GWR trains. I may have to stand corrected though. Could be a regional clash

SWR have a pair of services 1O68/1V41 crossing between Southern/Western borders on the West of England route, and also 1O/1V services between Salisbury and Westbury (and beyond).

V wouldn't have any real use on the majority of GWR services due to them running mostly entirely in the Western region. They do however have V/O pairings on the North Downs route.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

All I know is is that its to comply with the rule that all UP peak Virgin West Coast services to Euston have an "R" code (rather than "A" or "S").

That's something I hadn't previously noticed! Is it for Network Rail's convenience, to assist with regulation, or for that of Virgin Trains, to assist with platform occupancy/unit turnround management?

 

[snowball]

Can I suggest that W was left out due to its width?

That's what I've always assumed.

 

[AndrewE]

V wouldn't have any real use on the majority of GWR services due to them running mostly entirely in the Western region

You have misunderstood the system, M, S, E, O and V were used exclusively for inter-regional trains. Within regions all (or most of) the other letters were used: on the LMR "A" being trains to Euston and "B" suburbans on the same line - I haven't seen a WTT for the LM St Pancras lines so I don't know what they were. 1A00 was the up Barrow sleeper, the first overnight into Euston.
All the old WTTs used to have the code for reporting numbers in the front page or two.

 

[FGW_DID]

V is only used on crosscountry or ATW trains afaik. Not sure of any GWR trains. I may have to stand corrected though. Could be a regional clash

As well as the North Downs services as mentioned above, some GWR trains from Banbury use a V headcode. GWR trains to Banbury use the M headcode.

 

[E6007]

That's something I hadn't previously noticed! Is it for Network Rail's convenience, to assist with regulation, or for that of Virgin Trains, to assist with platform occupancy/unit turnround management?

"R" (for regulation?) is for Network Rail's benefit to recognise Virgin's business trains to London.

 

[jimm]

Can I suggest that W was left out due to its width?

If you look at the width of the V and then imagine trying to get the extra strokes in the same space, I think it should be clear that it would lose its clarity.

There may have been a mechanical reason in the past with those train describers, but once you get into GWR-land, using V for inter-regional services means there is no risk of confusion with services out of Paddington to Moreton-in-Marsh, Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford, which are 1Wxx or 2Wxx.

 

[GW43125]

There may have been a mechanical reason in the past with those train describers, but once you get into GWR-land, using V for inter-regional services means there is no risk of confusion with services out of Paddington to Moreton-in-Marsh, Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford, which are 1Wxx or 2Wxx.

If western region were W, they’d have just given those a different headcode!

 

[jimm]

Or, being the 'GWR', they just told everyone else that was what they were going to do with their headcodes, and that the other regions would have to use a V instead...

 

[bb21]

You have misunderstood the system, M, S, E, O and V were used exclusively for inter-regional trains.

Eh? I'm confused. Aren't we saying the same thing effectively?

Within regions all (or most of) the other letters were used: on the LMR "A" being trains to Euston and "B" suburbans on the same line - I haven't seen a WTT for the LM St Pancras lines so I don't know what they were. 1A00 was the up Barrow sleeper, the first overnight into Euston.
All the old WTTs used to have the code for reporting numbers in the front page or two.

B - Up Nottingham
C - Up Derby/Toton
P - Up Corby
D - Down Nottingham
F - Down Derby/Toton
M - Down Corby

 

[jfollows]

I've never understood why, today, the Manchester to Cardiff services are 1Vxx whereas the return workings are all 1Wxx. Does anyone have any thoughts or insight? Would a 1Mxx headcode cause confusion to anyone en route, for example?

Currently in my vicinity are:

1V39 1030 Manchester Piccadilly to Milford Haven
1W10 0615 Carmarthen to Manchester Piccadilly

 

[bb21]

I've never understood why, today, the Manchester to Cardiff services are 1Vxx whereas the return workings are all 1Wxx. Does anyone have any thoughts or insight? Would a 1Mxx headcode cause confusion to anyone en route, for example?

Currently in my vicinity are:

1V39 1030 Manchester Piccadilly to Milford Haven
1W10 0615 Carmarthen to Manchester Piccadilly

XC northbound from Newport are 1M's aren't they? Probably makes it easier for the signaller at Maindee Jn.

 

[Mag_seven]

XC northbound from Newport are 1M's aren't they? Probably makes it easier for the signaller at Maindee Jn.

Could the "W" be the "W" in "North and West Route"?

 

[Controller1701]

Looking in the 1982 wtt, the Waterloo - Exeter line and the Portsmouth to Bristol / Cardiff all appear to be 1V and 1O services

Paul