A question about headcodes - why 'V' for Western?

[CyrusWuff]

The Chiltern "Parliamentary" service to/from Paddington via the New North Main Line also follows the rule:

2V27 1057 South Ruislip - London Paddington
2M29 1136 London Paddington - High Wycombe

Traditionally there was always a "gap" in the numbering of the relevant trains as well, so if the service was diverted to Marylebone (e.g. because no Guard was available), they could be renumbered with an appropriate 2Hxx/2Wxx ID instead.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

GWR Pompey-Cardiff line switched to 1Fxx headcodes when Virgin XC’s Operation Princess greatly increased the number of 1Vxx headcodes coming into Bristol from the North.

Other V / O headcode pairings on Western include:
Bristol-Weymouth line (some, not all)
Local services between Westbury-Southampton/Brighton
Banbury-Didcots
North Downs Line

 

[D7666]

The WR system requirements were defined in 1958.

The WR system could only handle 20 different letters and I Q R U W Y were omitted.

The limit was imposed by there being only 10 different symbols (thats the word in contemporary publications - today I think might say segments) in each position of the 4character display not allowing 36 (0-9 and A-Z) different characters with clarity.

This is given in Trains Illustrated June 1960.

I believe becuase the WR systems could not themselves display W before the 4character system was introduced nationwide, when the latter was later introduced it imposed not-W for WR on the rest, another letter had to be used, and for whatever reason V was selected.

It is possible other regions systems had similar limitations although I've never seen them stated.

--
Nick

 

[D7666]

I can't answer when Waterloo Exeters changed from V/O to L,
but,
when they were V and O, the Waterloo Salisburys were always L. That was when the regional boundary was at Wilton South.

When the boundary was moved 1980s some time to Sherborne/Yeovil (or was it Templecombe/Sherborne I forget), those trains that ran east of Gillingham for example also were L.

Regions abolished, single letter code makes more sense, L was already in use on a greater part of the route, so that was adopted.

Thats why it was done, although it don't answer when. Anybody know?

--
Nick

 

[Muzer]

I can't answer when Waterloo Exeters changed from V/O to L,
but,
when they were V and O, the Waterloo Salisburys were always L. That was when the regional boundary was at Wilton South.

When the boundary was moved 1980s some time to Sherborne/Yeovil (or was it Templecombe/Sherborne I forget), those trains that ran east of Gillingham for example also were L.

Regions abolished, single letter code makes more sense, L was already in use on a greater part of the route, so that was adopted.

Thats why it was done, although it don't answer when. Anybody know?

--
Nick

I wonder if it was as late as the hourly timetable introduction? That, after all, was when they stopped running beyond Exeter.

 

[D7666]

I wonder if it was as late as the hourly timetable introduction? That, after all, was when they stopped running beyond Exeter.

No it was before that.

--
Nick

 

[D7666]

You have misunderstood the system, M, S, E, O and V were used exclusively for inter-regional trains. Within regions all (or most of) the other letters were used: on the LMR "A" being trains to Euston and "B" suburbans on the same line - I haven't seen a WTT for the LM St Pancras lines so I don't know what they were. 1A00 was the up Barrow sleeper, the first overnight into Euston.
All the old WTTs used to have the code for reporting numbers in the front page or two.

Wrong sorry M S E O V have never been EXCLUSIVELY inter regionals.

Southern Region internally always used at least S M and V with the South Eastern Division - look at an old headcode book like 1H80 and you will find the overnight papers trains from Victoria for example were 1S02 1S00 1M06 1V02 1V00 1M50 1V88 for places such as Ramsgate Dover Bexhill Eastbourne. And thats the handful of LH trains; hundreds of EMU trains used those ranges. Cannon Street for example now today as well as BR SR days probably has more trains with S O V headcodes than other letters. (ok ok I've not counted them but it sometimes seeed that way when Cep bashing, and I'm talking 1970s and 1980s when the regions existed.)


--
Nick

 

[D7666]

Further, O was used internally by ScR for Edinburgh Glasgow via Falkirk 1O-odd eastbound 1V-even westbound.
If you can find apicture of pushpull 27s with a full number not the lazy ScR 1dotdotdot they are always 1Oxx.

--
Nick

 

[150219]

The Chiltern "Parliamentary" service to/from Paddington via the New North Main Line also follows the rule:

2V27 1057 South Ruislip - London Paddington
2M29 1136 London Paddington - High Wycombe

Traditionally there was always a "gap" in the numbering of the relevant trains as well, so if the service was diverted to Marylebone (e.g. because no Guard was available), they could be renumbered with an appropriate 2Hxx/2Wxx ID instead.

We'd wouldn't usually change the ID's of these services if they were diverted. We have done, but more often than not we'd keep the same ID if the service was still running. To divert 2V27 now would require a "shunt release", because the train can not start from South Ruislip into Marylebone without reversing via West Ruislip.

 

[150219]

The WR system requirements were defined in 1958.

The WR system could only handle 20 different letters and I Q R U W Y were omitted.

The limit was imposed by there being only 10 different symbols (thats the word in contemporary publications - today I think might say segments) in each position of the 4character display not allowing 36 (0-9 and A-Z) different characters with clarity.

This is given in Trains Illustrated June 1960.

I believe becuase the WR systems could not themselves display W before the 4character system was introduced nationwide, when the latter was later introduced it imposed not-W for WR on the rest, another letter had to be used, and for whatever reason V was selected.

It is possible other regions systems had similar limitations although I've never seen them stated.

--
Nick

Good gen there!

The blinds fitted to the 4 character train indicators were also fitted with the restricted alphabet. There's not a lot of room for fabric indicator blinds to have any additional letters, without rubbing on the fittings/mountings too. Not that I'm suggesting this would've had any bearing on train descriptions, just a purely practical observation.

The original WTT specifications list the inter-regional characters (as previously listed), as well as specifying the regional characters and then standard headcodes for Class 1, Class 2 and Class 9/0 movements. It could be said that the only part of the instructions still in place today are the inter-regional characters and other parts have eased a lot.

Our destination characters are specific to our operation, but differ from the destination characters of other operators services terminating at the same location.

 

[D7666]

I meant to comment on something.

The TI article does state 10 symbols. I think that is a typo for 20. It is meaning 20 letters maximum compared to 10 numbers.

By segment = arc of the rotating bit on the electromechanical WR device.

The LM were quite early in using neon? tube? displays and I think those had

Good gen there!

The blinds fitted to the 4 character train indicators were also fitted with the restricted alphabet. There's not a lot of room for fabric indicator blinds to have any additional letters, without rubbing on the fittings/mountings too. Not that I'm suggesting this would've had any bearing on train descriptions, just a purely practical observation.

The original WTT specifications list the inter-regional characters (as previously listed), as well as specifying the regional characters and then standard headcodes for Class 1, Class 2 and Class 9/0 movements. It could be said that the only part of the instructions still in place today are the inter-regional characters and other parts have eased a lot.

Our destination characters are specific to our operation, but differ from the destination characters of other operators services terminating at the same location.

 

[D7666]

I'll add one more comment on inter regional numbers.

When the system was devised, the North Eastern Region existed and the letter N had been intended for that. I've never understood the full story here and not sure at what point in time for example ne-sw cross countries to ER/NER all became E - that is to say I don't know if it the same time as NER was abolished.

The Op also stated could see why O was SR because ScR already had S. Where is that stated? There is no reason why S could not have been SR forcing ScR to be something else.

I actually think too much OCD retro analysis is put into this sort of subject. The entire system did not arrive on Day 1 will all I crossed and all T dotted. It evolved on a region by region basis over time, the regions were out of step with each other, and numerous anomalies grew.


Something the over analysers often post is I was not used because of confusion with 1 yet forget O used alongside 0. Then they say Q not used becuase of confusion with O. In fact if confusion between O and Q and O and 0 were an issue, Q would have been used not O to demarcate it from 0.

--
Nick

 

[150219]

@D7776. I think there's a reasonable amount of conjecture why some letters are confused with others, for the same reason that certain characters weren't used on GB car registration plates. As pointed out earlier in the thread, why are 'E' and 'F' both used and not 'O' and 'Q'.

I would certainly be surprised if there wasn't a formal agreement with the introduction of the four character train IDs, given that the system was introduced across the network at the same point (13/06/60).

 

[D7666]

Probably you are right about the network wide agreement: but trying to establish what exactly that was at the time is not easy.

The difference between X and Z is another one unclear. I understood in the early days X denoted pre-planned special and Z non pre-planned special (this is when these letters are applied to passenger trains that is) and that both were inter regional. But I can't found where I read that (it wasn't web froth, I heard that before the internet was invented).

And 5 and S, and 8 and B, are equally confusable when you look at those old neon tubes describers. At least 5 and 8 appear in differnet positions to S and B.


Don't even get me started on LT/LU numbers........

--
Nick

 

[Muzer]

Probably you are right about the network wide agreement: but trying to establish what exactly that was at the time is not easy.

The difference between X and Z is another one unclear. I understood in the early days X denoted pre-planned special and Z non pre-planned special (this is when these letters are applied to passenger trains that is) and that both were inter regional. But I can't found where I read that (it wasn't web froth, I heard that before the internet was invented).

And 5 and S, and 8 and B, are equally confusable when you look at those old neon tubes describers. At least 5 and 8 appear in differnet positions to S and B.


Don't even get me started on LT/LU numbers........

--
Nick

I'm sure you're aware, but for the benefit of others, X nowadays is "potentially out of gauge if diverted", and Z is used for both types of special.

 

[Mag_seven]

Does anyone know why this freight from Wembley Yard to Dollands Moor yesterday carried a "B" in its headcode (4B57) rather than an "O"?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00840/2018/02/05/advanced

I would have expected an "O" as it is an "inter regional" to the "Southern". It has been suggested that it is something to do with the fact that it is heading for the Channel Tunnel?

The "China Clay" empties service also carry a similar "B" in its headcode (6B63) for the Wembley Yard - Dollands Moor leg:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H21780/2018/02/02/advanced

This is also destined for the channel tunnel.

 

[FGW_DID]

Does anyone know why this freight from Wembley Yard to Dollands Moor yesterday carried a "B" in its headcode (4B57) rather than an "O"?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00840/2018/02/05/advanced

I would have expected an "O" as it is an "inter regional" to the "Southern". It has been suggested that it is something to do with the fact that it is heading for the Channel Tunnel?

The "China Clay" empties service also carry a similar "B" in its headcode (6B63) for the Wembley Yard - Dollands Moor leg:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H21780/2018/02/02/advanced

This is also destined for the channel tunnel.

From the NR WTT (book WK):

Channel Tunnel services between Dollands Moor and Wembley Euro Freight Ops Centre and vice .versa only, are given the letter 'B' to denote via Maidstone East,

NOTES
TRAIN I.D.
The six-character identification shown at the top of individual train columns in the following pages against the description "Train ID." is for the purpose of train identification.
The first character (numeral) denotes the train classification; the second (letter) denotes the destination Region, groups of services or routes (as the case may be); the third and fourth characters (numerals) are progressive numbers which provide individual train identification. The last two characters (letters) are for train planning purposes only. Channel Tunnel services between Dollands Moor and Wembley Euro Freight Ops Centre and vice .versa only, are given the letter 'B' to denote via Maidstone East, 'C' via Redhill or XD' via Sevenoaks.

 

[Mag_seven]

From the NR WTT (book WK):

Channel Tunnel services between Dollands Moor and Wembley Euro Freight Ops Centre and vice .versa only, are given the letter 'B' to denote via Maidstone East,

Thanks for that - I will know where to look next time a similar query comes up.

 

[AndrewE]

In the light of what has been explained on this thread I wasn't surprised to notice that the Manchester Picc to Sheffield local trains now have a 2Sxx headcode - and vv too. Strangely Sheffield to Manchester Airport are 1Bxx and to Lime St 1Rxx even though they are inter-regional and I would have expected 1Mxx.

 

[D6975]

In the light of what has been explained on this thread I wasn't surprised to notice that the Manchester Picc to Sheffield local trains now have a 2Sxx headcode - and vv too. Strangely Sheffield to Manchester Airport are 1Bxx and to Lime St 1Rxx even though they are inter-regional and I would have expected 1Mxx.

I thought Sheffield (Midland) station was on the Midland region. (and the old Sheffield Victoria on the Eastern)

 

[edwin_m]

I thought Sheffield (Midland) station was on the Midland region. (and the old Sheffield Victoria on the Eastern)

Probably were on the formation of BR, but my 1978 Baker Atlas has the regional boundary just south of Chesterfield (Horns Bridge I think). The fact London-Sheffield trains were inter-regional may explain some of the neglect of the route in BR days. Presumably they were 1Mxx and 1Exx.

 

[AndrewE]

I thought Sheffield (Midland) station was on the Midland region. (and the old Sheffield Victoria on the Eastern)

Midland might have been midland once, but I'm sure it has been Eastern Region for at least 40 years. Isn't the boundary Totley Tunnel East? I've no idea which bit of the railway ran Victoria, but as much of the MS&W electrified line was west as east of the Pennines... The last class 76 electric locos on it were programmed (diagrammed in modern parlance) from the offices in Crewe in the 1970s.

 

[edwin_m]

At nationalisation the "Big four" just became the Regions, with the exception of Scotland and North East. However quite quickly afterwards the process began of transferring the more peripheral routes of the former companies into the Region they were located in geographically.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The old "Midland" got split between LM, E and NE Regions, re-entering LM territory approaching Hellifield. I think this was about 1953.
The GC routes also got split with LM taking over the Marylebone and Manchester ends, leaving the ER with the Sheffield bit.
At about the same time the WR took over the Midland route from Bristol to Blackwell (top of the Lickey).

The really big changes were in 1963 when the LM took Aynho-Chester off the WR, who gained the LSWR lines west of Salisbury from the SR.
But the more recent changes of signal control areas makes the historical boundaries more and more irrelevant.
Cardiff now controls Nantwich (and soon Rhyl), while the West Mids SCC has regained control of the Midland almost to Tewkesbury.

Anyway, after all this mind-bending complexity, I've never understood why GB train identities don't follow the simple numerical train numbers used across Europe.
The airlines and ATC systems don't seem to have much trouble with airline/numerical flight numbers either.
Meanwhile NR can't bring itself even to display the TOC code on summary departure boards, let alone the train number.
Can you imagine airport departure boards which omit the airline and flight number?

 

[SWTrainspottin]

Cornish branch lines now have a letter according to destination in most cases.

2Gxx - Gunnislake
2Lxx -Looe
2Nxx - Newquay
2Fxx - To Falmouth
2Txx - From Falmouth

St Ives branch trains all 2Axx.

Same with mainline local services too. All local services (and expresses) heading to Penzance are 1Cxx or 2Cxx which I assume means Cornwall. From Penzance, locals terminating at Plymouth are 2Pxx and locals terminating at Exeter are 2Exx.

 

[FGW_DID]

Same with mainline local services too. All local services (and expresses) heading to Penzance are 1Cxx or 2Cxx which I assume means Cornwall. From Penzance, locals terminating at Plymouth are 2Pxx and locals terminating at Exeter are 2Exx.

C: Trains to or within the PC WTT Area (unless shown otherwise).

From the WTT book PC which covers that area.