A plea to ticket sellers ...

[Unixman]

Last week I had to go from a city in the Midlands to South Quay in Docklands and rather than fight my way through the impenetrable ticketing system ( turns out that two singles were cheaper than a return - even at peak hours - but that is another story) I went up to the local ticket office and asked for a ticket which covered the journey to South Quay - I was absolutely specific about that.

Ticket sold, good journey down to Paddington and then onto the tube. Got to Heron Quay ( to change to the DLR) and I couldn't exit through the gate. Went over to the attendant nearby, showed them my ticket and I could hear an audible sigh. "This is for Zone 1. We are in Zone 2. This happens just so often. I had 3 yesterday just like it. You were sold the wrong ticket."

Anyway, I was let through and I was told to explain what had happened on the return journey and, to be fair, my explanation was accepted. The plea is for the zones to be checked - esp when specific instructions were given! I don't know the Zone boundaries but I would hope that the person in the ticket office would.

 

[yorkie]

What was the destination on the ticket?

 

[Unixman]

What was the destination on the ticket?

U1*

I know ... I should have checked but I just assumed ( wrongly as it turned out) that I had been sold the asked for ticket, plus, of course, I didn't know what zone South Quay is in - which is why I specifically asked for it by name.
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U1*

I know ... I should have checked but I just assumed ( wrongly as it turned out) that I had been sold the asked for ticket, plus, of course, I didn't know what zone South Quay is in - which is why I specifically asked for it by name.

Update.

I have just checked on National Rail the prices and I might have been unfair to the ticket office.

My ticket from Worcester to U1* cost £27.05 (DSB, Anytime S) but National Rail is showing exactly the same price for South Quay. Would that print out as a U1* and not U12?

Wonder if this is a quirk? And if it is, it might explain the re-occurrence of the issue at Heron Quay.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Looks like this is the ticket you should have been given:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=0447&dest=ZSQ&grpd=0790&rlc=DIS&rte=805&tkt=SOS
The price is the same for Zone U1 and Zone U12 tickets, but the validity is different. I think it's quite likely to be a mistake by the booking clerk, but that isn't to say there isn't a quirk in the system they use that might make the mistake easy to make (I have no idea).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

..... I don't know the Zone boundaries but I would hope that the person in the ticket office would.

You would hope a clerk in the Midlands would know London zone boundaries? Do they only sell tickets to London from that station?

It does sound to me like an error rather than anything deliberate, these things happen from time to time. Still you know what you need next time and you can now ask for it specifically if you wish.

 

[trentside]

In the office I worked in, we used to keep a zonal map and index for these sorts of queries. Now you know the zonal ticket you require, I'd ask for that in future - instead of the station name as it will avoid any doubt about which ticket you actually require and will hopefully stop any further issues.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

What zonal destination would you ask for in this case? I can imagine that if you said something like London zone 2 you might be sold a travelcard, which is more more expensive.

 

[razor89]

What zonal destination would you ask for in this case? I can imagine that if you said something like London zone 2 you might be sold a travelcard, which is more more expensive.

I'd probably ask for London zones 1 and 2, and if needed tell them to type 'zone u12*' into their computer. A travelcard would be a separate ticket and you would hope the clerk would tell you the two separate prices first so you can correct them.

I would not expect a clerk to immediately know what zone a station is in, however I would expect them to either have a zone map or another way to find out.

 

[RJ]

Research is supposed to be part of the ticket office clerk's role - finding out which is the correct ticket to sell. Too many clerks are petrified of opening the manual or ringing an appropriate office for help, preferring to guess and hope for the best. The common attitude when a complaint is made is "oh well, we weren't to know, these things happen sometimes" which is a bit rubbish really if nothing changes. It can ruin people's journeys, especially when you get unsympathetic ticket inspectors that expect passengers to know everything.

Caveat emptor, although it really shouldn't be that way. I really dread going to ticket offices sometimes and definitely won't without fully investigating exactly what I should be sold beforehand.

 

[swt_passenger]

...A travelcard would be a separate ticket and you would hope the clerk would tell you the two separate prices first so you can correct them.

Except in vast areas of the south and much of the midlands where they are normally available as all in one fares printed on a single ticket 'outboundary travelcard'

 

[razor89]

Except in vast areas of the south and much of the midlands where they are normally available as all in one fares printed on a single ticket 'outboundary travelcard'

This is one of the reasons I joined this forum, we don't get trained on a lot of this stuff so it's a great source of information! I work in the north so will probably never sell this ticket, but if someone could provide an example on brfares I can hopefully work out how to sell it!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Just a ticket from your origin station to London Zones 1-6 (NLC code 0035 if you prefer). There are some available from the North, e.g. this from Sheffield

 

[TheEdge]

Just a ticket from your origin station to London Zones 1-6 (NLC code 0035 if you prefer). There are some available from the North, e.g. this from Sheffield

Why buy that when all the OP asked for and needed would have been a simple Worcester to Zone U12* Londn? Why make it more complex than needed and selling a far more heavy use ticket than needed?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My ticket from Worcester to U1* cost £27.05 (DSB, Anytime S) but National Rail is showing exactly the same price for South Quay. Would that print out as a U1* and not U12?

No, its odd that they are identical prices but they would print differently. The correct ticket would print as Worcester Stns and Zone U12* LONDN rather than Zone U1* LONDN.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Why buy that when all the OP asked for and needed would have been a simple Worcester to Zone U12* Londn? Why make it more complex than needed and selling a far more heavy use ticket than needed?

Scroll up - I was answering razor89's question

 

[trentside]

What zonal destination would you ask for in this case? I can imagine that if you said something like London zone 2 you might be sold a travelcard, which is more more expensive.

What people regularly used to ask me for was a single or return from their origin station to the zone they required - and added the qualifier that they didn't require a travelcard. If it wasn't clear, I used to ask the supplementary question as to whether they were just making a single trip or would require multiple journeys.

 

[yorkie]

This is a good reason why the 'strict liability' Railway Byelaw 18 which make Unixman guilty of a criminal offence need to be abolished.

The Train Companies are very quick to harp on about how it is the "customers responsibility" to ensure they have the correct ticket, and are not prepared to accept any responsibility themselves to ensure that customers are either actually issued with the correct ticket, or will have a valid ticket honoured.

A mistake by a booking clerk can leave a customer liable to a criminal prosecution or a Penalty Fare. That is wrong. No other industry would treat "customers" in such a way.

It is fortunate Unixman didn't encounter an RPI.

Does anyone know of any organisations or MPs who would be willing to help us fight the unjust Railway Byelaw 18?

 

[TheEdge]

Yes, Byelaw 18 is a bitch when it comes into force unfairly but to entirely remove it will cause problems.

It allows the railways to take action against people who have clearly tried it on without needing to go down the far harder route of proving intent. The adult who "accidentally" bought a child ticket, the person who "didn't know" a train had a peak restriction or that their railcard was 6 months out of date or at home. Without the strict liability aspect chasing these would become prohibitively expensive and probably nigh on impossible to convict and recoup said costs.

There needs to be a halfway house where either honest mistakes or mistakes on behalf of the railway don't get blown out of proportion but where the dishonest cannot wriggle out thanks to the difficulty of proving intent.

Don't have the answer though!

 

[Unixman]

Yes, Byelaw 18 is a bitch when it comes into force unfairly but to entirely remove it will cause problems.

It allows the railways to take action against people who have clearly tried it on without needing to go down the far harder route of proving intent. The adult who "accidentally" bought a child ticket, the person who "didn't know" a train had a peak restriction or that their railcard was 6 months out of date or at home. Without the strict liability aspect chasing these would become prohibitively expensive and probably nigh on impossible to convict and recoup said costs.

There needs to be a halfway house where either honest mistakes or mistakes on behalf of the railway don't get blown out of proportion but where the dishonest cannot wriggle out thanks to the difficulty of proving intent.

Don't have the answer though!

And as I said, given that the two ticket prices (U1* and U12*) are exactly the same ( which to be fair I didn't know at the time) there cannot be any accusations that I was trying to fiddle the system.

 

[bunnahabhain]

To be fair, if somebody had asked me for a ticket to South Quays onboard a train and it printed out at London Zone U1* I'd be nonplussed and not aware of any difference. I've never been asked for any destination within the London boundary that hasn't been a travelcard or KGX/STP/EUS. In a booking office perhaps its a little different, but on train its sometimes rather difficult to know where places are (even with a very good geographical knowledge!). The passenger said he didn't check, and the booking clerk made an error or the machine defaulted to Zone U1*.

I only sell what I'm asked for, except in circumstances where I'm aware of an alternative (Matlock to Loughborough period return is a good example!).

 

[TheEdge]

And as I said, given that the two ticket prices (U1* and U12*) are exactly the same ( which to be fair I didn't know at the time) there cannot be any accusations that I was trying to fiddle the system.

I'm not accusing, I'm responding to Yorkie.

 

[Unixman]

I'm not accusing, I'm responding to Yorkie.

I know

I was just making the point that if an RPI had stopped me then the situation would have been completely ludicrous.

 

[TheEdge]

To be fair, if somebody had asked me for a ticket to South Quays onboard a train and it printed out at London Zone U1* I'd be nonplussed and not aware of any difference. I've never been asked for any destination within the London boundary that hasn't been a travelcard or KGX/STP/EUS. In a booking office perhaps its a little different, but on train its sometimes rather difficult to know where places are (even with a very good geographical knowledge!). The passenger said he didn't check, and the booking clerk made an error or the machine defaulted to Zone U1*.

I only sell what I'm asked for, except in circumstances where I'm aware of an alternative (Matlock to Loughborough period return is a good example!).

You'll probably find on an Avantix machine (at least on a copy of Traveller this is true) that there is no fare for Worcester to South Quays, it would have to be a zonal ticket or travelcard. I sell so many different tickets to London on my trains I just keep my phone in my pocket with a tube map on it, any doubt and I'll check and sell the relevant zonal ticket. Zone U123* remains the biggest non-travelcard I've sold.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, Byelaw 18 is a bitch when it comes into force unfairly but to entirely remove it will cause problems.

It allows the railways to take action against people who have clearly tried it on without needing to go down the far harder route of proving intent.

I disagree, becuse if they have "clearly tried it on" then there will - by definition - be evidence of intent.

If there is no evidence of intent, they are arguably not "clearly trying it on", I'd argue.

The rail industry is quite unique in this respect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know

I was just making the point that if an RPI had stopped me then the situation would have been completely ludicrous.

Ludicrous in the context of assuming customers are valued and the rail industry acts fairly.

But, given what I know about the rail industry, the encounter would have likely been consistent with Government policy to encourage people into their cars and put them off rail travel as much as possible.

I've even witnessed FGW staff at Paddington falsely claim that a passenger had a gun, because they knew that if they told the truth, BTP/LU would not have delayed the service.

The rail industry is totally unique in treating its passengers like absolute scum at times, and criminalising people when the rail industry makes a mistake.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It sounds like the software on TISes/Avantices could be some way better designed. Brfares.com, asked for fares from Worcester Foregate Street to South Quay DLR, knows that a ticket from Worcester Stations to Zones U12* might be appropriate, but a ticket from Worcester Stations to Zone U1* won't be.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I've never been asked for any destination within the London boundary that hasn't been a travelcard or KGX/STP/EUS.

If you don't need the extra validity offered by a Travelcard, the split ticketing of a ticket to London Terminals or an Interchange plus Oyster can sometimes be cheaper. If Zone 1 can be avoided, so much the better.

Here's a useful map, showing Oyster pricing on National Rail.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pay-as-you-go-tarrifs-national-rail.pdf

If time isn't a problem and you are on a stopping train on a "green" route, you buy a ticket to the station at the edge of the Oyster zone, leave the train to touch in and then catch the same or next train.

 

[Be3G]

It sounds like the software on TISes/Avantices could be some way better designed. Brfares.com, asked for fares from Worcester Foregate Street to South Quay DLR, knows that a ticket from Worcester Stations to Zones U12* might be appropriate, but a ticket from Worcester Stations to Zone U1* won't be.

Unfortunately, train-tube journeys are too complicated for a computer to be able to offer one perfect ticket. For example, consider someone who wishes to travel from Stevenage to Oakwood. There're two obvious ways of doing this: by a fast East Coast service to King's Cross then the Piccadilly Line back out to Oakwood, or by an FCC service to Finsbury Park and the Piccadilly Line from there instead. Both of those options would require different tickets: to ZONE U1245 LONDN in the first case, and ZONE U2345 LONDN in the second.

 

[bunnahabhain]

If you don't need the extra validity offered by a Travelcard, the split ticketing of a ticket to London Terminals or an Interchange plus Oyster can sometimes be cheaper. If Zone 1 can be avoided, so much the better.

Here's a useful map, showing Oyster pricing on National Rail.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pay-as-you-go-tarrifs-national-rail.pdf

If time isn't a problem and you are on a stopping train on a "green" route, you buy a ticket to the station at the edge of the Oyster zone, leave the train to touch in and then catch the same or next train.

I don't envisage any of my passengers ever doing that.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Unfortunately, train-tube journeys are too complicated for a computer to be able to offer one perfect ticket. For example, consider someone who wishes to travel from Stevenage to Oakwood. There're two obvious ways of doing this: by a fast East Coast service to King's Cross then the Piccadilly Line back out to Oakwood, or by an FCC service to Finsbury Park and the Piccadilly Line from there instead. Both of those options would require different tickets: to ZONE U1245 LONDN in the first case, and ZONE U2345 LONDN in the second.

Both of those tickets could be appropriate and a computer could easily determine that. A computer could also easily determine that a ticket to ZONE 12*, for example, is not appropriate for that journey (and indeed brfares does - [clicky]).

While it is difficult (not impossible) for a computer to determine exhaustively which zones are required, it is easy for one to determine that at least one zone is definitely required - the one the station is in. It's frankly farcical that any TIS even offers tickets to ZONE U1* when they are requested to a station in zone 2.

This of course is irrelevant if the clerk didn't use that feature of the TIS and just asked it for a ticket to zone 1

 

[Paul Kelly]

The zonal information in the fares database doesn't allow for a station to be in more than one zone though, so you may find occasional anomalies in the fares suggested by BR Fares when the origin or destination is a dual-zoned station.

 

[PermitToTravel]

That shouldn't lead to it offering invalid tickets though, only withholding other valid ones