A Lame Plug Socket Question

[Yew]

I've got to agree that plugs and WIFI can be useful at making trains more attractive, When I first used a 158 I was very put off to find a lack of them.

The method on EMT's HST's is reasonably good, with Plugs available in the sinks of the toilets. Unfortunately there are no plugs in the toilet though... (In all seriousness I find the EMT method is alright, as long as you arent using an old style iphone charger you dont notice the plug by your knee too much..

 

[Dave1987]

I get that, but I think we are now at the tipping point where people expect power & WiFi on their trains. They are certainly massively effective tools at attracting people out of their cars and onto trains, especially on routes which see a lot of business travel. A lot of office jobs are now moving to a model where people can bring in and work on their own computer, which means they can get an hour or two done while on the train instead of having to do that extra work in the office or when they are at home with the family.
If you follow a TOC's Twitter feed then yes, you can see that some of the complaints about no power or WiFi can be quite rude, but what they are asking for shouldnt be ignored simply because you dont like the way they are asking. A few mean words should be water off a ducks back for the people who deal with that kind of stuff, it's not personal is it?

I totally understand your point and yes I do agree that if it encourages ppl out of their car onto the railway that can only be a good thing. The only problem is is that passengers tar all TOC's with the same brush I.e FGW and virgin have them so why don't GA they come out with comments like "what century are you living in" and "you are the worst TOC because I can't charge my iPad!". I think thats prob what gets me is ppl see it as the normal acceptable convince on trains but are about 5 years too early.

 

[krus_aragon]

suplimental questions:

1) As a non technical person can some one please explain to me the limiting factors in preventing sockets (plug sockets? ) being fitted to and being able to operate on all rail vehicles.

Whilst not a technically limiting factor, I believe the age of trains, their refurbishment cycle and their expected use are the main factors in the presence or absence of power sockets today. If I can use the rolling stock typically found in Wales as an example...

The Class 175s were built around circa 2000. They have only had a minor refurbishment (new seat covers) to their interior since then. As such, they have fittings that seemed suitable twelve years ago. Most portable entertainment devices (Walkman, Game Boy, etc.) ran on replaceable batteries and portable computers were relatively few.

Pendolinos and Voyagers were built shortly thereafter for long distance travel, and with the expectation of business travellers (who were more likely to own a laptop) power sockets were fitted at tables. As Nym pointed out, few 2002 laptops would be comfortably usable on the drop-down tables at airline seating. A mobile phone's charge would last several days, and were only useable as far as cell coverage allowed (other than playing snake or similar). These trains have not seen any refurbishment of their interiors since built (other than XC's modification of the Voyagers' shop area), so that's all that's on them today.

(As a further sign of the times, consider that all of the above were fitted with headphone sockets in the armrests of at least some areas of seating for an on-board radio service. Such a thing would be anachronistic today, but was quite modern back then.)

FGW's HST sets have been refurbished from 2005 onwards. By 2005, Ipods (non-replacable battery) have started getting popular, and laptop computers are becoming more ubiquitous. Those few power sockets provided at tables on some trains are becoming more and more hotly contested, and with FGW's refurbishment cutting the umber of tables in their high density carriages to only two, table-only coverage is not enough. So a power socket is provided for every row of airline seats.

And now on to Arriva's class 158s. These c. 1990 units had the ultra-modern provision of an on-board payphone(!) but that's long since been removed. Other than that, come 2010 they have practically the exact same interior as in the early 90s, and are due for refurbishment. People are getting used to the increasing provision of power sockets in other regional and long-distance trains, and the fact that so many people carry at least one device which frequently needs to be recharged from a wall socket means that the provision of sockets during their refurbishment is almost a foregone conclusion.

As a contrasting example, ATW's recent 153 refurbishments didn't see power sockets fitted, but these are used for local and rural services by and large.

And with regard to fitting power sockets to existing trains in the future, this is probably going to happen to all regional and long distance stock, but only as and when money is available to spend on fitting them. That's going to be more likely if the train is due for an internal refurbishment anyway.

 

[Goatboy]

I totally understand your point and yes I do agree that if it encourages ppl out of their car onto the railway that can only be a good thing. The only problem is is that passengers tar all TOC's with the same brush I.e FGW and virgin have them so why don't GA they come out with comments like "what century are you living in" and "you are the worst TOC because I can't charge my iPad!". I think thats prob what gets me is ppl see it as the normal acceptable convince on trains but are about 5 years too early.

Do you blame passengers for complaining where other areas where the service provision is lacking, too?

You cannot expect passengers to be interested in the refurbishment cycle of units. They buy ticket, they get on train. They know when they get on an FGW train or a CrossCountry train they get power, they therefore are suprised when a GA IC service has no power.

The lack of power provision is one of those things and will presumably be sorted in the fullness of time but you can hardly continually berate the travelling public for having the wrong expectations.

 

[maniacmartin]

Will we ever see 5V DC USB-style sockets being present on trains? This has now been adopted as a standard for charging phones across virtually all manufacturers and means that passengers wouldn't have to carry transformers around. I'm guessing not if the 230V outlets will still have to be maintained for laptops.

I hate the fact that every laptop seems to have its own different transformer brick thats a faff to plug in on trains. Why can't laptop vendors manage to have a cross-manufacturer standard? IBM managed to have a common charger across all ThinkPads until they sold to lenovo, and AFAIK Dell have the same power connector for all of their models, admittedly in different current ratings, but they are cross-compatible.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Do you blame passengers for complaining where other areas where the service provision is lacking, too?

You cannot expect passengers to be interested in the refurbishment cycle of units. They buy ticket, they get on train. They know when they get on an FGW train or a CrossCountry train they get power, they therefore are suprised when a GA IC service has no power.

The lack of power provision is one of those things and will presumably be sorted in the fullness of time but you can hardly continually berate the travelling public for having the wrong expectations.

But, given that I'm not aware of widespread availability of power sockets on buses, coaches, trams, ferrys or aeroplanes, I wouldn't expect (demand?) that a train has power sockets for the use of battery powered, portable, devices, when travelling.

 

[bnm]

Ironically the FGW HST sockets at tables are unusable by most smartphone chargers.

No they're not. Smart smartphone users buy one of these from a pound shop:

 

[Nym]

Or perhaps put the phone into Eco Mode so it will have a battery life lasting longer than 20 seconds?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

No they're not. Smart smartphone users buy one of these from a pound shop:

Ah - a socket plug double plug socket!

(Sorry)

 

[table38]

My laptop battery has a short life, as it's getting a bit old

You could try that thing that works quite well with some batteries [1]

1. Switch laptop off completely
2. Charge laptop up fully
3. Start laptop, but stop it in the BIOS or Windows Start Menu by using F8 or whatever. The point of this is to stop the operating system detecting the battery state and suspending/hibernating.
4. Let the laptop run right down
5. Repeat the cycle one more time

[1] Small Print - there is some debate as to which different battery technologies suffer from this problem, (hence careful use of the weasel word "some" above) but it certainly spruces up the Li-ion batteries I use. You can read this or wait for Nym to come along and explain it properly

 

[Roverman]

an on-board payphone(!)

World's largest mobile phone?!

 

[Goatboy]

But, given that I'm not aware of widespread availability of power sockets on buses, coaches, trams, ferrys or aeroplanes, I wouldn't expect (demand?) that a train has power sockets for the use of battery powered, portable, devices, when travelling.

Fairly irrelevent points there. Lets deal with them in turn.

a) Buses. Seriously? For a start buses do not travel far enough for it to a be problem and secondly your average business user who wants to get some work done probably never uses a bus.

b) Coaches. See above, only minus the travel time thing.

c) Trams. Seriously? Nobody would expect or even want power on rapid-transit systems.

d) Ferries. Power was available on my last Dover to Calais crossing.

e) Planes. Increasingly more common on the long-haul carriers these days.

I don't agree every train should be immediatly retrofitted with sockets - the current methodology of doing it during refurbishments is fine - but criticising customers for having the audacity to expect more from the service they pay for is what I took issue with.

 

[michael769]

Personally I'd rather see the industry concentrate it's resources on the basics like the reliability and punctuality of services.

 

[1018509]

Ah - a socket plug double plug socket!

(Sorry)

Err! ........... I think you'll find that's a triple plug socket, pluget sockup or whatever.

 

[Goatboy]

Personally I'd rather see the industry concentrate it's resources on the basics like the reliability and punctuality of services.

Yes, because arriving on time and fitting sockets during refurbishment works are an either or affair

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, because arriving on time and fitting sockets during refurbishment works are an either or affair

They aren't supplied and fitted for free though...

 

[michael769]

[1] Small Print - there is some debate as to which different battery technologies suffer from this problem, (hence careful use of the weasel word "some" above) but it certainly spruces up the Li-ion batteries I use. You can read this or wait for Nym to come along and explain it properly

Lithium based batteries are immune from voltage depression (aka the memory effect). However the complex control electronics in a Lithium battery can sometimes get out of sync with reality and can benefit from recalibrating. This is achieved in the manner you describe which is similar to the conditioning process required by nickel based cells to prevent voltage depression (nickel based batteries are the most prone to voltage depression). Indeed avoiding full discharges extends the lifespan of lithium batteries. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Conditioning_controversy

For an old laptop recalibration is unlikely to help though as Lithium Ion batteries degrade over time steadily and irrecoverably losing capacity. In laptops batteries typically have a useful lifespan of 18-24 months, though this can be extended by keeping them cool (the cooler they are the slower the degradation) and partially charges (40% is the optimum, again higher charge levels accelerate degradation)

See: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

[jopsuk]

Ironically the FGW HST sockets at tables are unusable by most smartphone chargers.

The current Samsung ones have no problems

 

[6Gman]

Interested as to why you say quote "decent trains" with plug sockets. Can a train not be decent if it doesn't offer sockets? Why do ppl nowadays insist on having sockets? Am I the only one who reads a book on the train?

You read a book !!

You should be looking out of the window - you might spot something interesting to start a new thread on here.

 

[46100ROYALSCOT]

Typical response for this forum, 14 posts pointing out pedantic reasons why the question wasn't phrased correctly before someone attempts to answer the question!

Spot on Daz28, a guy asks for advice about whether or not there is a plug/socket for his laptop only to get a lecture in Electrical Engineering or whatever it is. Surely everyone knew what he was asking for. A 13amp socket to plug in his laptop.

 

[D1009]

Fairly irrelevent points there. Lets deal with them in turn.

a) Buses. Seriously? For a start buses do not travel far enough for it to a be problem and secondly your average business user who wants to get some work done probably never uses a bus.

b) Coaches. See above, only minus the travel time thing.

c) Trams. Seriously? Nobody would expect or even want power on rapid-transit systems.

The coaches used on the X5 service from Oxford to Cambridge via MK are fitted with free Wifi and power sockets, and the local buses which connect Temple Meads with Clifton via Bristol Uni are fitted with Wifi.

 

[jopsuk]

The Stagecoach fleet for the Cambridge Guided Bus have a power socket at every pair of seats and free wifi. Becoming quite common on "premier" bus routes- but I think generally only with new buses.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not related to the original post but is related to plug sockets, do 159s have sockets (either class) and what about SWT 158s?

 

[Lrd]

Not related to the original post but is related to plug sockets, do 159s have sockets (either class) and what about SWT 158s?

They both only have them in first class.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks I'm considering a jaunt back down the SW taking the slower route and for a three hour plus journey plug sockets are definitely needed. Thankfully booking far enough in advance (and with a railcard) there are plenty of £14 first advances to be had!

 

[fairysdad]

They both only have them in first class.

Hmm. If you boarded through the door into first class, meaning you had to walk through in order to get to standard, could you take along a long extension lead, plug it in to one of the sockets as you walked past, and then use it in standard?

(last time I was on an HST from Devon to London, I did take an extension lead so I could plug more than one thing in... I did have the lead for something else once I got there though, I didn't just take it for that reason!)

 

[tsr]

Hmm. If you boarded through the door into first class, meaning you had to walk through in order to get to standard, could you take along a long extension lead, plug it in to one of the sockets as you walked past, and then use it in standard?

(last time I was on an HST from Devon to London, I did take an extension lead so I could plug more than one thing in... I did have the lead for something else once I got there though, I didn't just take it for that reason!)

I'm afraid somebody could try to enforce Byelaw 11.2, if they deemed the extension lead to be hazardous (which, if it trailed between accommodation of First and Standard Classes, it may well be!):

"No person shall place, throw, drop or trail anything on the railway which is capable of injuring, damaging or endangering any person or any property."

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

 

[bnm]

Thanks I'm considering a jaunt back down the SW taking the slower route and for a three hour plus journey plug sockets are definitely needed. Thankfully booking far enough in advance (and with a railcard) there are plenty of £14 first advances to be had!

Can I ask why they are 'definitely needed'?

I can think of very few situations where being without a laptop/tablet/smartphone for a few hours is any great hardship. Isn't it more a case of 'want' rather than 'need'?

If this is a jaunt, then are you really going to be buried in your device(s) for so long that they need to be connected to the 'mains' en route?

 

[Lrd]

My phone only last about 10 hours, if I'm lucky. I may need to use it later on in the day to check the time, phone a taxi if the bus doesn't show, listen to music etc, so whenever I get the opportunity to, I always charge my phone to make it last that bit longer otherwise it is usually dead wayyy before I get anywhere near my home station, let alone home.

I can't carry a spare battery either as the phone has a "sealed" battery.

 

[Nym]

yay for iPhones...