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A Lame Plug Socket Question

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Shimbleshanks

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Can anyone tell me why, on Virgin's Pendolinos, only the table seats have electric sockets? It really drives me mad, as the table seats fill up much quicker than the airline style ones and you're then stuck without power until after Nuneaton, Stafford or wherever.
 

OxtedL

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Can anyone tell me why, on Virgin's Pendolinos, only the table seats have electric sockets? It really drives me mad, as the table seats fill up much quicker than the airline style ones and you're then stuck without power until after Nuneaton, Stafford or wherever.

This is a guess, but I would imagine it's because when they designed and built them they only placed sockets adjacent to the table seats.
 

Goatboy

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This is a guess, but I would imagine it's because when they designed and built them they only placed sockets adjacent to the table seats.

Seems odd though - as the Voyagers and refurbished XC/FGW HST's have them everywhere. Ironically the FGW HST sockets at tables are unusable by most smartphone chargers.
 

14xxDave

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Typical response for this forum, 14 posts pointing out pedantic reasons why the question wasn't phrased correctly before someone attempts to answer the question!

Well that's what I like about this forum. Ask a question, you get a million answers about something you didn't ask then 'BANG' the answer you wanted comes along. Makes it interesting in my eyes :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
MK would be so proud of you using their trademark there ;)

I've asked for a fee but they sadly were reluctant...might move to using another company :p
 

Lewisham2221

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Can anyone tell me why, on Virgin's Pendolinos, only the table seats have electric sockets? It really drives me mad, as the table seats fill up much quicker than the airline style ones and you're then stuck without power until after Nuneaton, Stafford or wherever.

Oh, no, really? You mean, whilst travelling you might not be able to plug something in? You might have to use battery power? Somebody call the electricity police. #firstworldproblems

 

Dave1987

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Can anyone tell me why, on Virgin's Pendolinos, only the table seats have electric sockets? It really drives me mad, as the table seats fill up much quicker than the airline style ones and you're then stuck without power until after Nuneaton, Stafford or wherever.

Ow no!! You won't be able to use your electric device an might be forced to read a book. Some ppl seem to think the world will end if they cannot use their smartphone/laptop/electronic device constantly. Simple solution charge the battery before leaving home?
 

Shimbleshanks

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Ow no!! You won't be able to use your electric device an might be forced to read a book. Some ppl seem to think the world will end if they cannot use their smartphone/laptop/electronic device constantly. Simple solution charge the battery before leaving home?

Unfortunately some of us have to work for a living and being able to work on the train is crucial if I'm to get the job done. That's my main reason for travelling by train. And, if I've been using my laptop all day outside an office or home, no I don't get the chance to charge it up before I start the journey.
 

Dave1987

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Unfortunately some of us have to work for a living and being able to work on the train is crucial if I'm to get the job done. That's my main reason for travelling by train. And, if I've been using my laptop all day outside an office or home, no I don't get the chance to charge it up before I start the journey.

Most ppl who moan about lack of "power" are complaining they cannot constantly use their smartphones. On our line ppl have asked what century we live in the fact we don't offer wifi and power sockets on all trains. And on the intercity services ppl moan they can't live stream sky go on the wifi available!
 

michael769

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Most ppl who moan about lack of "power" are complaining they cannot constantly use their smartphones. On our line ppl have asked what century we live in the fact we don't offer wifi and power sockets on all trains. And on the intercity services ppl moan they can't live stream sky go on the wifi available!

Next they will be expecting the council to install sockets in every lampost! :roll:
 

1018509

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For goodness sake the OP asked a reasonable question and should be able to expect a reasonable reply so, for what it's worth, I've no idea!! :D
 

JamesM

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Hello everybody.

I don't mind the pedants - as someone points out, you don't pay for the answers and (some) people surprise me on here with their generosity - being helpful, free of charge! I try and be polite here, because on now countless occasions I've had answers to questions swiftly and accurately - such answers can even save you money. If people want to take the mickey, then who am I to complain, we all have different senses of humour and find different things entertaining.

Thanks to the guy that did answer the question though!

You'll be delighted and fascinated to know that my laptop was fully charged this morning, which was lucky given I couldn't get a table seat on the way down (none of you hip middle aged gentlemen remembered it was Clothes Show Live at the NEC now did you!)

On this side debate about why people should want plug sockets, simply to inform from the point of view of a regular fare paying passenger, who uses trains once or twice a month....

- I could have used the train or the car today, but I picked train in order to work whilst I travel.

- My laptop battery has a short life, as it's getting a bit old - rather than pay for a new one at the moment, I'm waiting to buy a whole new laptop - so power is very useful. I was OK today though.

- On other occasions, I have a mobile phone that is effectively a small mini tablet, often mobile batteries don't last the full day, so it's useful to be charging it up at the same time, as extended use of the screen is one of the big drains on the battery.

- I fully accept that we don't know we were born etc etc! But, personally, I find power sockets a useful benefit that help me become more productive, or give me a more enjoyable travelling experience, thus I use the train more often. If I can answer a few e mails and send a few texts to friends, then read the news and a couple of chapters of a book, I'm happy. Equally, if I can do the work that I would have done on Friday night, on the Saturday morning, I have increased leisure time.

- As for why I don't read a book - I like to travel as light as possible - with the Kindle you can read books on your mobile phone, and have one less thing to carry.

That's just one person's experience. I'm just a bog standard, paying passenger who finds that he can get 3 hours work done on the train, where as you can't in the car, hence why I'm interested in the availability of power sockets.

Thanks again.
 

Dave1987

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Hello everybody.

I don't mind the pedants - as someone points out, you don't pay for the answers and (some) people surprise me on here with their generosity - being helpful, free of charge! I try and be polite here, because on now countless occasions I've had answers to questions swiftly and accurately - such answers can even save you money. If people want to take the mickey, then who am I to complain, we all have different senses of humour and find different things entertaining.

Thanks to the guy that did answer the question though!

You'll be delighted and fascinated to know that my laptop was fully charged this morning, which was lucky given I couldn't get a table seat on the way down (none of you hip middle aged gentlemen remembered it was Clothes Show Live at the NEC now did you!)

On this side debate about why people should want plug sockets, simply to inform from the point of view of a regular fare paying passenger, who uses trains once or twice a month....

- I could have used the train or the car today, but I picked train in order to work whilst I travel.

- My laptop battery has a short life, as it's getting a bit old - rather than pay for a new one at the moment, I'm waiting to buy a whole new laptop - so power is very useful. I was OK today though.

- On other occasions, I have a mobile phone that is effectively a small mini tablet, often mobile batteries don't last the full day, so it's useful to be charging it up at the same time, as extended use of the screen is one of the big drains on the battery.

- I fully accept that we don't know we were born etc etc! But, personally, I find power sockets a useful benefit that help me become more productive, or give me a more enjoyable travelling experience, thus I use the train more often. If I can answer a few e mails and send a few texts to friends, then read the news and a couple of chapters of a book, I'm happy. Equally, if I can do the work that I would have done on Friday night, on the Saturday morning, I have increased leisure time.

- As for why I don't read a book - I like to travel as light as possible - with the Kindle you can read books on your mobile phone, and have one less thing to carry.

That's just one person's experience. I'm just a bog standard, paying passenger who finds that he can get 3 hours work done on the train, where as you can't in the car, hence why I'm interested in the availability of power sockets.

Thanks again.

I appreciate what you are saying and yes it would be nice for there to be power sockets on every train etc but what I don't like is when people actively insult TOC's because their stock doesn't have them. They are a nice convenience but you pay for the journey not wifi & power.
 

Goatboy

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They are a nice convenience but you pay for the journey not wifi & power.

You might, others may specifically chose to travel by train over an often cheaper and more convenient car journey specifically so they can get on with some work or relax with a movie. It's one of the key reasons I travel by train on a regular long distance journey which wouldn't cost me any more to do by car.

So, whilst you pay for a ticket not a power socket, some people may choose to travel because they know they can get power onboard to get done what they wish to do whilst they travel.
 

MattRobinson

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This is a guess, but I would imagine it's because when they designed and built them they only placed sockets adjacent to the table seats.

What an enlightening response. Nobody would ever have realised that only the table seats have electrical sockets next to them because that's how they were built. Tautology, much?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

Nym

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What an enlightening response. Nobody would ever have realised that only the table seats have electrical sockets next to them because that's how they were built. Tautology, much?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

One could also postulate that due to the construction of the Class 390 that space is not available within the walls to fit BS1363 sockets?

Or perhaps that when these were specified, sub-miniature laptops where the reservation of the elite and tablets were of a similar vein, being designed in the late 90s / early 2000s, also a time where mobile telephony devices were able to hold a charge for days on end.

So I pose to you this question, why would you want a socket where there clearly wouldn't be space or the necessity to use it?
 

DarloRich

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suplimental questions:

1) As a non technical person can some one please explain to me the limiting factors in preventing sockets (plug sockets? :) ) being fitted to and being able to operate on all rail vehicles.

2) Further, how do the sockets provided on some trains draw provide their power? From what source is suitable electricity created or converted and distributed
 

MattRobinson

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One could also postulate that due to the construction of the Class 390 that space is not available within the walls to fit BS1363 sockets?

Or perhaps that when these were specified, sub-miniature laptops where the reservation of the elite and tablets were of a similar vein, being designed in the late 90s / early 2000s, also a time where mobile telephony devices were able to hold a charge for days on end.

So I pose to you this question, why would you want a socket where there clearly wouldn't be space or the necessity to use it?

My point wasn't about whether the sockets should or shouldn't be there, but about the response to the question 'why are there only sockets at the tables' being 'because that's how they were built'.

But in response to your points above, if there is no space for a socket, how did they fit them in by the table seats? Also, I tend to agree that there is no point in putting sockets in when there is no perceived requirement for such things.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

Nym

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suplimental questions:

1) As a non technical person can some one please explain to me the limiting factors in preventing sockets (plug sockets? :) ) being fitted to and being able to operate on all rail vehicles.

2) Further, how do the sockets provided on some trains draw provide their power? From what source is suitable electricity created or converted and distributed

If you don't mind I'll answer the 2nd one first to provide some context for the 1st.

There are two or three (main) ways to create the 230/400V AC for sockets.

The first has been used for many, many years on trains, this being the Motor Alternator. It is what it says on the tin. Provides nice isolation from the supply current but is not a clean supply.
This type of supply is suitable for:
Carriages Mk2. Mk3a (1000V DC Supply), Carriages Mk3 (415V Supply), DC EMUs, AC EMUs, and DMUs.

Transformers can be used on services powered by an AC, such as the class 390. But this would be by a secondary winding on the primary transformer, sitting behind the DC bus, this would therefore not be protected from when the VCBs open at current gaps, so is not preferable.
HSTs use a 3 phase 415V distribution for ETS, so this can simply be fed through an isolation transformer and remain within the spirit of BS7671. However, this is not a clean supply and would usually feed 'cleaners' sockets'

The most modern way is using power electronics to take a DC input and make a fake AC output that is actually formed of a quazisquarewave, rather than a true sine wave. These are not an issue for power supplies but can be a problem for wound equipment like motors, or florescent tubes. (Hence why MA sets are used.) But in my opinion this is the most likely method for supply used on most rolling stock as it provides a very nice level of isolation and redundancy to current gaps if a parallel battery is provided on the DC bus (it usually is).

To answer part one, space and cost I imagine are big factors. But not just the equipment cost, but how much of the train you need to stip out to harness up these sockets that are only there as a matter of convenience, not a safety critical item. Also while we're on that, the use of 230V@50Hz on some trains can interfere with LV DC systems that provide control so would require protection, adding more expense...


My point wasn't about whether the sockets should or shouldn't be there, but about the response to the question 'why are there only sockets at the tables' being 'because that's how they were built'.

But in response to your points above, if there is no space for a socket, how did they fit them in by the table seats? Also, I tend to agree that there is no point in putting sockets in when there is no perceived requirement for such things.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Because on the Class 390 they're part of the table assembly and not built into the wall.

And it's not a case of perceived requirement, there simply wasn't any perception at all, no-one knew how they would be used at all on services and the equipment likely to be used at the time, by the perceived passengers at the time, was business laptops and equipment not dissimilar, therefore, due to the size of the aforementioned equipment, why would you want facility for it fitting at airline seats, where space for it is dubious and would likely add significant additional cost.

Also, not fitting them into walls is surprisingly common in modern stock, take a look at the Class 395...
 
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Cherry_Picker

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I appreciate what you are saying and yes it would be nice for there to be power sockets on every train etc but what I don't like is when people actively insult TOC's because their stock doesn't have them. They are a nice convenience but you pay for the journey not wifi & power.

I get that, but I think we are now at the tipping point where people expect power & WiFi on their trains. They are certainly massively effective tools at attracting people out of their cars and onto trains, especially on routes which see a lot of business travel. A lot of office jobs are now moving to a model where people can bring in and work on their own computer, which means they can get an hour or two done while on the train instead of having to do that extra work in the office or when they are at home with the family.
If you follow a TOC's Twitter feed then yes, you can see that some of the complaints about no power or WiFi can be quite rude, but what they are asking for shouldnt be ignored simply because you dont like the way they are asking. A few mean words should be water off a ducks back for the people who deal with that kind of stuff, it's not personal is it?
 

Lewisham2221

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I was on a class 153 yesterday. There was a man using his mobile phone and a laptop. Must be some sort of voodoo magic or witchcraft associated with single carriage trains.
 

OxtedL

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What an enlightening response. Nobody would ever have realised that only the table seats have electrical sockets next to them because that's how they were built. Tautology, much?

nb Designed and built.

But yes. What I gave is of course the most correct answer given the question (which alas wasn't a well-phrased question, and could have been more successfully phrased "gosh, it is so annoying that only table seats on Pendolinos have sockets, what were they thinking?!", which is after all clearly what was meant).

I felt I did quite well getting into the spirit of the thread.
 

Nym

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I felt I did quite well getting into the spirit of the thread.

Damn, and there's me trying to be serious for once...

Why don't we make everyone happy and just say, "You're going to have a 125A IEC60309 socket at one end of the carriage, sort yourselves out..."
 

OxtedL

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What is perhaps most enlightening about this whole experience is that someone somewhere has written extensive Wikipedia articles on everything Nym has mentioned so far...
 

Nym

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What is perhaps most enlightening about this whole experience is that someone somewhere has written extensive Wikipedia articles on everything Nym has mentioned so far...

Eh?

What is it you're getting at here? This engineer doesn't understand subtilty...

If it's trying to get at, "He's just reading wikipedia." you'll be rather disapointed to find out that I actually do know these kind of things off hand.
 

OxtedL

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Eh?

What is it you're getting at here? This engineer doesn't understand subtilty...

If it's trying to get at, "He's just reading wikipedia." you'll be rather disapointed to find out that I actually do know these kind of things off hand.

No such undertones were intended! Just marvelling at the exceptional detail people bother to put on Wikipedia, never fails to amaze me.
 
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