9 car set pendolinos

[tadhatter]

When the additional vehicles were originally ordered several years ago I thought all sets were to become 11 car sets. Is this not the case then?

 

[Elecman]

No the DaFT would not sanction the entire fleet, some of the bots was covered from a compensation payment from a Network Rail for the accident S&T Grayrigg that wrote off 1 pendo

 

[SF-02]

Seems extremely short sited of them.

 

[tadhatter]

No the DaFT would not sanction the entire fleet, some of the bots was covered from a compensation payment from a Network Rail for the accident S&T Grayrigg that wrote off 1 pendo

But what makes it bizarre is that they now have 56 sets rather than the original 53. Bizarre in as much that they went for more sets at the same time as increasing some of the sets to 11cars. Why not focus on extending all sets?

 

[Elecman]

Virgin wanted to extend all sets to 11 cars.... DaFT said no, but there again Rolling Stock provision is the TOCs responsibility not governments according to Ministers....yeah right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what makes it bizarre is that they now have 56 sets rather than the original 53. Bizarre in as much that they went for more sets at the same time as increasing some of the sets to 11cars. Why not focus on extending all sets?

The additional sets have provided extra useful capacity in that they are used instead of Voyagers on the seriously overcrowded Brum-Scotland services.

Neil

 

[Kite159]

The additional sets have provided extra useful capacity in that they are used instead of Voyagers on the seriously overcrowded Brum-Scotland services.

Neil

Which they should be as it is frankly stupid running Voyagers under the wires for the entire journey.

 

[455driver]

Seems extremely short sited of them.

It is but why would anyone be surprised at this decision!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virgin wanted to extend all sets to 11 cars.... DaFT said no, but there again Rolling Stock provision is the TOCs responsibility not governments according to Ministers....yeah right.

Are you saying its the DaFT in charge?
Surely not!

This is sarcasm!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Seems extremely short sighted of them.

It was a casualty of the ICWC 2012 refranchising collapse.
DfT has basically put the franchise on a do-minimum basis until the next bidding round, which starts in 2016.
Trouble is Alstom may well have lost interest in building more 390 vehicles.
Apart from missing the 2012 order, the other potential Pendolino orders (eg Alliance) keep drifting out and Alstom won't wait for ever.

 

[najaB]

...the other potential Pendolino orders (eg Alliance) keep drifting out and Alstom won't wait for ever.

Other than storage costs for the jigs, what incentive is there for Alstom to 'close the line' for 390's?

 

[WatcherZero]

Mainly suppliers, you have to keep regular orders coming in to keep suppliers making the parts you need to build them, newer models you offer may use different parts/suppliers and so have different supply chains. You can substitute more modern equivalents but that often leads to compatibility issues and bodging to keep things working the same way (and headaches for customers for maintenance that they are different to their existing versions). Staff also have to be maintained with appropriate knowledge and skills to run the production line, if a model goes out of production and you lose the trained staff through natural wastage or redudancies you have to train new ones adding cost/time.

There comes a time when a manufacturer wants to shift customers from a legacy product to a newer product they offer, as happened with Siemens not wanting to supply 350 Desiros to Scotland (the TPE/LM order was an option on an existing contract). However as far as I know Alstom are still building Pendolinos for other customers, the issue is over the UK customisations, i.e. if they received a new order for a Pendolino they would build it but it would be different to the existing ones and require new certifications.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Other than storage costs for the jigs, what incentive is there for Alstom to 'close the line' for 390's?

If they've made use of CAD and CAM then the design for the jigs might be stored on computer

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which they should be as it is frankly stupid running Voyagers under the wires for the entire journey.

Yet having the Voyagers provides tremendous flexibility during engineering works.

Neil

 

[cjmillsnun]

It was a casualty of the ICWC 2012 refranchising collapse.
DfT has basically put the franchise on a do-minimum basis until the next bidding round, which starts in 2016.
Trouble is Alstom may well have lost interest in building more 390 vehicles.
Apart from missing the 2012 order, the other potential Pendolino orders (eg Alliance) keep drifting out and Alstom won't wait for ever.

I don't think they can build any more 390 vehicles.

Also the 11 car order was made before the franchising fiasco

 

[tadhatter]

The additional sets have provided extra useful capacity in that they are used instead of Voyagers on the seriously overcrowded Brum-Scotland services.

Neil

From my experience virtually all virgin trains are seriously overcrowded as are the london midland trains. In fact it's the fact that the trains on the wcml are so busy is a huge incentive for HS2 purely on capacity issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From my experience virtually all virgin trains are seriously overcrowded

Not my experience at all. On most of my recent VT journeys I've had no issues getting a seat - often a seat of my preference (the end Priority seats in the quiet coach if they're going).

as are the london midland trains.

Certain LM trains have overcrowding issues, particularly the Trent Valley ones, though the new timetable with a number of additional peak services from Euston should help a lot here. Though 8-car Trent Valley services are sorely needed.

Neil

 

[WatcherZero]

I always have to stand if im going from Wigan to Preston or Warrington but I can usually eventually get a seat if im going to Birmingham.

 

[Geezertronic]

In reality, there was only an additional 3 sets ordered even though 4 were delivered as one was a replacement for 390033 (written off at Grayrigg) - I believe they were all delivered as 9 car sets and had the additional two coaches retrofitted?

I agree though it was extremely short sited not to increase all 390s to 11 cars although there may have had to be an element of either infrastructure upgrade for stations not able to take an 11 car 390 or SDO?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In reality, there was only an additional 3 sets ordered even though 4 were delivered as one was a replacement for 390033 (written off at Grayrigg) - I believe they were all delivered as 9 car sets and had the additional two coaches retrofitted?

I agree though it was extremely short sited not to increase all 390s to 11 cars although there may have had to be an element of either infrastructure upgrade for stations not able to take an 11 car 390 or SDO?

There was a big row between Virgin and the DfT about it, because VT wanted a franchise extension to go with it.
Eventually the DfT itself placed the order (nothing to do with VT) and it was for 106 vehicles - 4x11-car new trains and 31x2-car upgrades.
They were hugely expensive (Alstom having to restart production).
This was before the 2012 franchise crash, and the DfT has been in denial mode ever since on the WCML.
It would have been very different by now if either Virgin or First had won a 15-year franchise.

 

[Geezertronic]

Which I guess makes it even more short sited not to increase all sets then as there would be further expense to increase the remaining sets to 11 cars

 

[route:oxford]

Which I guess makes it even more short sited not to increase all sets then as there would be further expense to increase the remaining sets to 11 cars

To be honest, it's bad enough at the moment at Wolverhampton when a 9 carriage Pendolino from Scotland empties onto an already full 4 carriage Voyager in order to achieve a 7 minute quicker arrival at Birmingham.

Can you imagine what it would be like with an 11-car Pendolino?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Seems extremely short sited of them.

Which I guess makes it even more short sited not to increase all sets then as there would be further expense to increase the remaining sets to 11 cars

I'm short sighted and not wearing my glasses at present but can still see that ewe knead two bee mhor a wear of homophones. (Know o'fence in ten dead).

 

[gordonthemoron]

From my experience (I use them a lot) Virgin trains are never full and standing and there are usually loads of spare seats

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The only time I've known a Virgin service overcrowded on a consistent basis is whenever a single 221 does a Scotland-Birmingham-Euston run. Joy

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, it's bad enough at the moment at Wolverhampton when a 9 carriage Pendolino from Scotland empties onto an already full 4 carriage Voyager in order to achieve a 7 minute quicker arrival at Birmingham.

What that needs is for the journey planner to have exceptions added to pack it in doing that. It makes no sense to most people, but people still do as they are told, just as they have to if they have Advance tickets.

Neil

 

[driver_m]

To any of you who think the trains are always easy to find a seat. Have a look at any service out of Euston at about 1900. You might change your mind! Or the first Euston bound arrivals at Milton Keynes. Sure some are quiet, but some are rammed.

 

[najaB]

Sure some are quiet, but some are rammed.

And ever was it so. If someone waved their magic wand and made all the Pendolios 15 coaches long overnight it wouldn't take long for word to get around that the currently busy trains have loads of room, so more people would leave their cars behind and pretty soon they would be just as busy as they are now.

Meanwhile, the currently lightly loaded services would be transporting four more coaches of air.

 

[dk1]

Oh I don't know, many of the Manchester services can get very crowded as can some of the Glasgow runs. Seen some serious crowding even with load11s lately. The WCML is a huge success story for VT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To any of you who think the trains are always easy to find a seat. Have a look at any service out of Euston at about 1900. You might change your mind! Or the first Euston bound arrivals at Milton Keynes. Sure some are quiet, but some are rammed.

LM helpfully provide posters showing which are busy so you can avoid them. By doing this (and being willing to take slower trains sometimes) I have a 100% record of a seat southbound in the peak (I take the 0715 from Bletchley which starts there), and probably 95+% northbound (I take a train due out in about 15 minutes so it hasn't had chance to be full, normally the 1813 in the old TT and 1816 in the new one, changing at LBZ for BLY).

Neil

 

[6Gman]

To any of you who think the trains are always easy to find a seat. Have a look at any service out of Euston at about 1900. You might change your mind! Or the first Euston bound arrivals at Milton Keynes. Sure some are quiet, but some are rammed.

I use the 1910 departure now and again.

Absolutely packed!





To Milton Keynes, and then a coach to ourselves!