9 car set pendolinos

[SpacePhoenix]

I don't think they can build any more 390 vehicles.

Is that due to some reg that a new build would fall foul of?

 

[455driver]

Is that due to some reg that a new build would fall foul of?

Probably because they are an old design which the manufacturer wouldnt be interested in restarting production of them for such a small order!

This is one of the reasons we need Railwaymen (and women) in charge rather than some poxy Civil Servant that only understands the costs involved and not the value of these things.

 

[najaB]

Probably because they are an old design which the manufacturer wouldnt be interested in restarting production of them for such a small order!

If the price is right....

 

[455driver]

If the price is right....

Which would mean the price is much higher than it should have been!

 

[sprinterguy]

In reality, there was only an additional 3 sets ordered even though 4 were delivered as one was a replacement for 390033 (written off at Grayrigg) - I believe they were all delivered as 9 car sets and had the additional two coaches retrofitted?

They were delivered as 11-car sets but had the two additional vehicles removed for a time to operate as 9-car sets in service.

 

[DownSouth]

Which would mean the price is much higher than it should have been!

But the price would be the same, or even greater, if the railways ran their own factories.

The difference would be that you would be paying the cost of keeping a production line open on a yearly basis whether trains are being built or not, rather than paying a premium for a production line to be reopened (or for an open line to be retooled for the older model vehicles) if and when it becomes necessary.

In addition to paying for the factory rather than just the products of someone else's factory, there's an economy of scale that applies when someone else is building lots of trains for other people in addition to yours, and giving everyone the benefit of using proven designs.

British Rail was hardly the model of efficiency in this area, thanks to their scattergun approach of ordering over 30 diesel locomotive classes (not including shunters) with only a handful having more than 200 built.

 

[cjmillsnun]

But the price would be the same, or even greater, if the railways ran their own factories.

The difference would be that you would be paying the cost of keeping a production line open on a yearly basis whether trains are being built or not, rather than paying a premium for a production line to be reopened (or for an open line to be retooled for the older model vehicles) if and when it becomes necessary.

In addition to paying for the factory rather than just the products of someone else's factory, there's an economy of scale that applies when someone else is building lots of trains for other people in addition to yours, and giving everyone the benefit of using proven designs.

British Rail was hardly the model of efficiency in this area, thanks to their scattergun approach of ordering over 30 diesel locomotive classes (not including shunters) with only a handful having more than 200 built.

I think no one can argue that BR in the 50s and 60s was efficient. It certainly wasn't. The BR and BREL of the mid 80's was a different story. The number of EMUs built on the Mk3 design, many having a similar body structure produced economies of scale.

However nowadays mechanical jigs can be universal and the line controlled by computer, so fixed costs per type are not as high as they were, however standards move on, and 390s are no longer compliant as new build for either 125 or 140 MPH units.

 

[arabianights]

Who is it making all these "standards"? There are hardly tens of thousands meeting an untimely death in horrific accidents on the railways every year. While I'm not suggesting that we ought to take the eye off the ball, is the huge costs incurred in continuous safety improvement really worth it?

Or if you are not referring to safety standards, what are the standards you are talking about? I, as you can probably tell, know very little about this (other than that when I pop out to the coop I do not have to step over starving children orphaned by rail disasters)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

However nowadays mechanical jigs can be universal and the line controlled by computer, so fixed costs per type are not as high as they were, however standards move on, and 390s are no longer compliant as new build for either 125 or 140 MPH units.

Non compliant with what? Crash regs? or some other regs?

 

[Haydn1971]

I wouldn't say it's a case of manufacturers not wanting to restart production of an older design, but common sense suggests it's more a case of the older factory equipment being converted over for newer production runs, bespoke things like jigs, lifting frames, whole body racks and cable loam patterns would be difficult to turn back from new to old and continue both designs, then of course some things in the older design may not be available anymore so you have the added complication of getting v1 electronics working with v2 or later - even 5yrs is a lifetime in electronics. Internal gear might be available as a replacement part but not certified for application on new units - you could end up with half a fleet of Ford Escorts and half a fleet of Ford Focus's that look like Ford Escorts, but have all the running gear of a Ford Focus

 

[dosxuk]

When Greyrigg happened, people on here claimed the production line was shut and no replacement would be able to be built.
When the replacement, the extra sets and the 11 car add ons were completed, people on here claimed the production line was shut and no additions would be able to be built.
When the 2012 franchise was announced with baby-pendos, people on here claimed that these would be the last possible builds, and the production line would shut after they were built.
When the 2012 franchise collapsed, people on here claimed the production line was shut and there was no chance of getting the baby-pendos built.
When Alliance announced they were going to buy pendos, people on here claimed the production line was shut, and whatever Alstom had told them, they weren't going to be getting their trains.

Every time this topic comes up, there's someone claiming it would be impossible to get more 390 vehicles built, yet Alstom keeps offering them for sale, and TOCs keep placing potential orders.

Alstom know they are the only people with a ready-to-build 140MPH tilting EMU design that fits inside the UK loading gauge. If they turn round and go "no, we don't want to build that any more, you'll have to fund a new design and place a minimum order quantity", all that will do is open the doors to Bombardier and Siemens to build a competing product.

 

[cjmillsnun]

When Greyrigg happened, people on here claimed the production line was shut and no replacement would be able to be built.
When the replacement, the extra sets and the 11 car add ons were completed, people on here claimed the production line was shut and no additions would be able to be built.
When the 2012 franchise was announced with baby-pendos, people on here claimed that these would be the last possible builds, and the production line would shut after they were built.
When the 2012 franchise collapsed, people on here claimed the production line was shut and there was no chance of getting the baby-pendos built.
When Alliance announced they were going to buy pendos, people on here claimed the production line was shut, and whatever Alstom had told them, they weren't going to be getting their trains.

Every time this topic comes up, there's someone claiming it would be impossible to get more 390 vehicles built, yet Alstom keeps offering them for sale, and TOCs keep placing potential orders.

Alstom know they are the only people with a ready-to-build 140MPH tilting EMU design that fits inside the UK loading gauge. If they turn round and go "no, we don't want to build that any more, you'll have to fund a new design and place a minimum order quantity", all that will do is open the doors to Bombardier and Siemens to build a competing product.

Pendolinos might not be 390s. That is just the first UK class. No one is saying no more pendolinos.

Just like Desiros are not exclusively class 185. Various variants exist (mostly 450s).

The extra 390s built were done due to an option to build more that had been taken out at the time of the first order. They were duty bound to honour it. Technically they were non compliant in terms of crash regs which have moved on since they were originally built, however by making them 100% identical (even down to having the headphone ports on the seats), they could be got in under grandfather rights.

That option was taken up and any other options either don't exist or have lapsed.

Therefore any new pendolinos will not be 390s.

 

[Haydn1971]

Enter stage right, new Pendo Class 810 ! LOL

 

[dosxuk]

Therefore any new pendolinos will not be 390s.

That is exactly what people on here were saying when it became clear the Grayrigg pendo had been written off. If what you're saying was 100% true, there would have been no baby-pendo option being talked about during the 2012 fiasco.

Alstom are clearly open to the idea of reopening the class 390 production line (even if that is an updated 390/2) to anyone wishing to actually buy one.

 

[cjmillsnun]

That is exactly what people on here were saying when it became clear the Grayrigg pendo had been written off. If what you're saying was 100% true, there would have been no baby-pendo option being talked about during the 2012 fiasco.

Alstom are clearly open to the idea of reopening the class 390 production line (even if that is an updated 390/2) to anyone wishing to actually buy one.

The baby Pendo option was for a different class of unit, NOT a 390. It would still be a pendo as it would use the same technology. Effectively a 390/2 but it would have a new class number and a different front end.

How many different classes of Desiro are there?

EDIT: and I clarified why the 390 production was done after Grayrigg. There was an order option that was still valid, therefore contractually they had to. No such contract now exists and therefore Alstom are under no obligation to re-open the line. And I doubt they would when they can improve the technology and offer an improved product from their over 12 year old design.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Enter stage right, new Pendo Class 810 ! LOL

Exactly that sort of thing. A new unit, based on the same technology, but further developed and made to comply with the latest regulations.

 

[WatcherZero]

Last I heard Alliance rail had been quoted prices for baby pendos 4 or 5 times but Alstom had got fed up with them and said they wont give them anymore quotes.

 

[Hadders]

Even if more carriages were manufactured there would be an issue with the finance.

I would have though that the pendolinos as delivered in the early 2000's would have had a design life of 40 years, so the cost could be written off over this period.

The additional carriages will only have a life of 25 years as they would have to withdrawn when the rest of the fleet goes. Writing the cost off over 25 years would probably prove prohibitively expensive.

 

[Starmill]

From my experience virtually all virgin trains are seriously overcrowded as are the london midland trains.

Yeah, I've had to share coach U with 3 or 4 other passengers on some recent runs all the way down to Euston.

 

[tadhatter]

390054 was definitely delivered as an 11 car set.

I've got photos to prove it whilst on testing at Crewe with "11 car pendolino" branding on the side of each end driving unit!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, I've had to share coach U with 3 or 4 other passengers on some recent runs all the way down to Euston.

On VT the only trains I find to be overcrowded are those leaving Euston between about 1900 and 2030 on Friday evenings, and some going south on Sundays, as well as a few leaving Euston at commuter time with MKC stops. Other than that they seem to either be quiet, or all seats taken but almost no standing.

LM's Trent Valley 4-car services, OTOH, seem overcrowded near enough all the time.

Neil

 

[tadhatter]

Yeah, I've had to share coach U with 3 or 4 other passengers on some recent runs all the way down to Euston.

The phrase I used was "from my experience" and not a scientifically researched study into the %age use of each service.

 

[Geezertronic]

On VT the only trains I find to be overcrowded are those leaving Euston between about 1900 and 2030 on Friday evenings, and some going south on Sundays, as well as a few leaving Euston at commuter time with MKC stops. Other than that they seem to either be quiet, or all seats taken but almost no standing.

LM's Trent Valley 4-car services, OTOH, seem overcrowded near enough all the time.

Neil

I'd include the 1843 Euston-Crewe (via Birmingham) departure in that description as well, especially when substituted for a 9 car

 

[NotATrainspott]

I have seen suggestions that the London Midland WCML Slow services, minus the ones going to Crossrail, may be merged into the normal InterCity West Coast franchise during the rebuild of Euston to make things less difficult to manage. If this is true, then it's possible that some of the overcrowding will transfer from the London Midland trains and onto Virgin.

 

[cjmillsnun]

390054 was definitely delivered as an 11 car set.

I've got photos to prove it whilst on testing at Crewe with "11 car pendolino" branding on the side of each end driving unit!

It was, then after testing, 2 cars were detached and it entered service initially as a 9 car set. It has since had the two extra cars restored.

 

[Geezertronic]

It was, then after testing, 2 cars were detached and it entered service initially as a 9 car set. It has since had the two extra cars restored.

And renumbered to 390154

 

[The Planner]

I have seen suggestions that the London Midland WCML Slow services, minus the ones going to Crossrail, may be merged into the normal InterCity West Coast franchise during the rebuild of Euston to make things less difficult to manage. If this is true, then it's possible that some of the overcrowding will transfer from the London Midland trains and onto Virgin.

That would mean the services merging in 2017, unlikely and Crossrail which wouldnt open until 2024 ish isnt a done deal either yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen suggestions that the London Midland WCML Slow services, minus the ones going to Crossrail, may be merged into the normal InterCity West Coast franchise during the rebuild of Euston to make things less difficult to manage. If this is true, then it's possible that some of the overcrowding will transfer from the London Midland trains and onto Virgin.

To be fair, while FGW are not great, integrating the operation of the slow and fast services *has* improved things. But that said I think what *is* certain is splitting the Brum area commuter services from the rest of LM, and calling the latter West Coast Connect. Whether it becomes part of VWC is not yet certain, it may stay as a separate franchise a bit like the old Silverlink.

Neil

 

[tadhatter]

And renumbered to 390154

Fair comment.

I also noticed on my shots of 390054 at Crewe it had Alstom branding in blue with the words 11 car pendolino underneath in black. I would post a picture of it but I'm afraid I don't know how to!

 

[Class83]

Have any of the 9-car Pendolinos been converted to 6 standard + 3 first yet or are they all still in the 5/4 config, if not does anyone know what the likely dates for this to happen are?

 

[hibtastic]

To be honest, it's bad enough at the moment at Wolverhampton when a 9 carriage Pendolino from Scotland empties onto an already full 4 carriage Voyager in order to achieve a 7 minute quicker arrival at Birmingham.

Can you imagine what it would be like with an 11-car Pendolino?

I honestly do not understand why people do that. I prefer to just sit where I am.

Do the Voyagers go via a quicker route?