807/805 Speeds

[Toby268]

The problem with that stretch is how many times one gets delayed approaching Coventry on the down and / or Birmingham Int'l.
Heading to London, I rarely get a fast run over the WCML into it through Rugby due to clashing with another path - either because my train was delayed or one coming down the Trent Valley has been.

Yes even when the 1Y LNWR from Birmingham goes into platform 1 bang on time, you more often than not get a 1/2 minute delay on the fast Avanti that uses platform 2. Supposedly to do with the signal overlaps and braking performance of pendolinos meaning often you won’t get into platform 2 until the 1Y has departed platform 1 at Coventry. A combination of that plus some drivers defensive driving techniques doesn’t help. Not sure the timetable takes that fully into account to be honest. A journey I have done 3/4 times a week and I’ve only ever been bang on time into Coventry when the LNWR has been cancelled.

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem with that stretch is how many times one gets delayed approaching Coventry on the down and / or Birmingham Int'l.

There’s double reds at Coventry and Rugby that affect the running.

 

[cambsy]

Has anyone experienced a ride on the 800’s doing MU speeds? What was the acceleration, braking and ride like? Im looking experience this soon on day out to Liverpool to ride 777’s around Mersey Rail network.

 

[Railperf]

Has anyone experienced a ride on the 800’s doing MU speeds? What was the acceleration, braking and ride like? Im looking experience this soon on day out to Liverpool to ride 777’s around Mersey Rail network.

The ride is quite good to be honest - though that might be more down to the quality of the track.
Acceleration has not changed - just the ability to run at slightly higher speeds.

At least south of Rugby there seems to be more sections of 115/120 than 125, and in many locations particularly Leighton Buzzard and Chessington, the trains have to reduce to the lowest limits of 90 and 100mph where Pendolino's can sail through at 125mph.

So the time savings are minimal. Less than 30 seconds per section on the three sections Euston to Watford Junction, Watford to Milton Keynes, and Milton Keynes to Rugby. And there's around a 30 second time saving between Rugby and Coventry

Pendolino at 125mph is still almost 2 mins quicker between Watford and Milton Keynes because it does not have to slow down anywhere - and full 125 throughout.

Coming back into London the speeds for 805/807 drop earlier to 90mph as before where Pendolino's are still allowed a faster 110, which explains why Pendolino's are around 1 minute quicker south of Watford to Queens Park area. After that it is the lottery if Euston approach.

 

[Transilien]

think that is why the Avelia Liberty uses non tilt power cars with tilting coaches - similar to what BR envisaged with Class 91. And probably there is a limit as to how fast those non tilt power cars can negotiate some curves which seems to mean that the passenger vehicles don't require more than the 6.5 degrees of tilt.

What is the point of tilting when the whole train can’t even do it?

 

[hexagon789]

What is the point of tilting when the whole train can’t even do it?

Passenger comfort.

Tilting in itself doesn't generally permit safely running at higher speeds in curves, it permits higher speeds in curves with the same or similar levels of passenger comfort as running at the lower speed without out.

Certainly if tilt fails on a 390 Pendolino for example, while TASS will intervene to impose the non-EPS speed limits, there will be a period where the train or at least one car is running at or near the EPS limits without tilt until the speed is reduced.

Therefore it must be safe to run at full EPS limits without tilt, otherwise a tilt fault would be extremely dangerous - a train could derail on any curve at speed if tilt suddenly failed.

But it isn't and it doesn't, so tilt is purely for comfort by reducing the forces felt during taking a curve.

 

[cambsy]

A good example of Tilting being for passenger comfort, is the Swedish X2000 where only the passenger cars and that driving cab tilt, and the loco and its driving cab doesn’t tilt. I have wondered though what is it like for train driver in the loco going round curves at high speed with no tilting?

 

[Paul AC]

Some countries in mainland Europe run at significantly higher curving speeds with conventional, non-tilt, stock. I was on a Portuguese 56xx-hauled train the other day that was running flat out (and still not making any time up), the curving speeds are surprising to people used to UK standards, and can be uncomfortable - I was trying to do a bit of work on a laptop and gave up, it was too much effort to stop the laptop sliding around on the little seat-back table.....

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Some countries in mainland Europe run at significantly higher curving speeds with conventional, non-tilt, stock. I was on a Portuguese 56xx-hauled train the other day that was running flat out (and still not making any time up), the curving speeds are surprising to people used to UK standards, and can be uncomfortable - I was trying to do a bit of work on a laptop and gave up, it was too much effort to stop the laptop sliding around on the little seat-back table.....

Before the LGV was extended to Bordeaux, the TGVs did 135 mph on track which was about the equivalent of Weedon or the Trent Valley before they were straightened out. It was an interesting experience - but I did find it more comfortable than the much lower sensation on curves on a 390.

 

[slowroad]

Before the LGV was extended to Bordeaux, the TGVs did 135 mph on track which was about the equivalent of Weedon or the Trent Valley before they were straightened out. It was an interesting experience - but I did find it more comfortable than the much lower sensation on curves on a 390.

So what are the real barriers to doing something similar in UK? Signal spacing? And what would be the costs of overcoming those barriers?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So what are the real barriers to doing something similar in UK? Signal spacing? And what would be the costs of overcoming those barriers?

That's a good question - it's clearly physically safe to travel at such speeds on curves without tilting; I suspect there are worries about liability from anyone falling over / things spilling while walking though when the train reaches a curve like that?

 

[slowroad]

That's a good question - it's clearly physically safe to travel at such speeds on curves without tilting; I suspect there are worries about liability from anyone falling over / things spilling while walking though when the train reaches a curve like that?

Fair enough - but I’d have thought in some places in UK track conditions already bring such risks at current speeds……Perhaps standards are higher in France, so overall risk is mitigated??

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair enough - but I’d have thought in some places in UK track conditions already bring such risks at current speeds……Perhaps standards are higher in France, so overall risk is mitigated??

Standards of rail management are not higher in France.

Essentially, we do deploy higher levels of cant deficiency (the technical name) in some locations.

The standard maximum value of cant deficiency is 110mm (on continusously welded rail), but the ‘exceptional’ value is 150mm. This is the additinal amount the track would have to be super-elevated (‘canted’) for a passenger to not feel that they are going round a curve at the permitted linespeed of that curve.

The 150mm exceptional value is used sparingly, as it the resulting forces on passengers are, effectivly, a reduction in passenger comfort. To my knowledge they are used in a few places on the Berks & Hants line, north of Newcastle on the ECML, and on the MML between Bedford and Leicester.

There are higher levels of cant deficiency used for Enhanced Permissible Speeds, ie those use by the Class 390s (and formerly Class 221s) on the WCML. This was becaue the tilt offset the deficiency in terms of what the passenger feels. For reference the cant deficiency maximums in these circumstances are 265mm normal and 300mm exceptional. You are at (or close to) 300mm aroud Linslade (north of Leighton Buzzard) and Weedon in a 390 at EPS linespeed for example.

AIUI the French have a standard linit of 150mm. I don’t know about other railways.

 

[cambsy]

Other places where the 390’s with tilt operate at around 300mm can’t deficiency, are probably Berkhamstead, Weedon curve,Rugby area, Penrith Southbound at 95mph, Lamington viaduct, and various location north of Preston where track has a lot more curves and is twisty.

 

[slowroad]

Standards of rail management are not higher in France.

Essentially, we do deploy higher levels of cant deficiency (the technical name) in some locations.

The standard maximum value of cant deficiency is 110mm (on continusously welded rail), but the ‘exceptional’ value is 150mm. This is the additinal amount the track would have to be super-elevated (‘canted’) for a passenger to not feel that they are going round a curve at the permitted linespeed of that curve.

The 150mm exceptional value is used sparingly, as it the resulting forces on passengers are, effectivly, a reduction in passenger comfort. To my knowledge they are used in a few places on the Berks & Hants line, north of Newcastle on the ECML, and on the MML between Bedford and Leicester.

There are higher levels of cant deficiency used for Enhanced Permissible Speeds, ie those use by the Class 390s (and formerly Class 221s) on the WCML. This was becaue the tilt offset the deficiency in terms of what the passenger feels. For reference the cant deficiency maximums in these circumstances are 265mm normal and 300mm exceptional. You are at (or close to) 300mm aroud Linslade (north of Leighton Buzzard) and Weedon in a 390 at EPS linespeed for example.

AIUI the French have a standard linit of 150mm. I don’t know about other railways.

Thanks - that’s really informative and interesting. I travel quite a lot in France and haven’t noticed any discomfort (quite the opposite, actually). I wonder if anyone has looked at whether there would be benefits from adopting the French standard, and/or practice in other countries?

 

[Pendomonium]

The problem with that stretch is how many times one gets delayed approaching Coventry on the down and / or Birmingham Int'l.
Heading to London, I rarely get a fast run over the WCML into it through Rugby due to clashing with another path - either because my train was delayed or one coming down the Trent Valley has been.

True. It does normally mean getting to a red outside Coventry or Rugby quicker.

 

[Railperf]

True. It does normally mean getting to a red outside Coventry or Rugby quicker.

How are you getting on with the new MU speeds and the DAS setup? Would yu say the majority of services are nw running at the higher speeds?

 

[Pendomonium]

How are you getting on with the new MU speeds and the DAS setup? Would yu say the majority of services are nw running at the higher speeds?

I am awaiting feedback. I do know that MU speed compliance is compulsory on the Coventry corridor providing the driver is MU speed trained & DAS is functioning. Interested in seeing how that is working out.

 

[cambsy]

I am booked on 19.43 Liverpool-Euston on Monday 12th Jan, So What Are my chances of running at MU speeds on this service?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

talking to couple Train Managers on Monday 5th January, on trip to Liverpool, have heard that only 807’s are passed and authorised for MU speeds, the 805’s aren’t authorised yet to do MU speeds. Whether this true or not I cant guarantee as just word of Train Managers. Im hoping train back from Liverpool which booked 807, will run MU speeds, and will report back if it does run MU speeds.

Found out too that Pendolino’s with tilt failure cant run MU speeds as no DAS system, which thought might be case but been confirmed, which helpful to know.

 

[Toby268]

I am booked on 19.43 Liverpool-Euston on Monday 12th Jan, So What Are my chances of running at MU speeds on this service?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

talking to couple Train Managers on Monday 5th January, on trip to Liverpool, have heard that only 807’s are passed and authorised for MU speeds, the 805’s aren’t authorised yet to do MU speeds. Whether this true or not I cant guarantee as just word of Train Managers. Im hoping train back from Liverpool which booked 807, will run MU speeds, and will report back if it does run MU speeds.

Found out too that Pendolino’s with tilt failure cant run MU speeds as no DAS system, which thought might be case but been confirmed, which helpful to know.

Both 805s and 807s are authorised for MU speeds and are currently doing so.

Correct re pendolinos and MU speeds.

The only reason you would not be running on MU speeds on your journey, is if the driver hasn’t done the course yet and isn’t yet qualified on the new speeds or if the DAS system is not functioning properly, in both cases PS speed will be adhered to.

 

[Tilting007]

I am booked on 19.43 Liverpool-Euston on Monday 12th Jan, So What Are my chances of running at MU speeds on this service?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

talking to couple Train Managers on Monday 5th January, on trip to Liverpool, have heard that only 807’s are passed and authorised for MU speeds, the 805’s aren’t authorised yet to do MU speeds. Whether this true or not I cant guarantee as just word of Train Managers. Im hoping train back from Liverpool which booked 807, will run MU speeds, and will report back if it does run MU speeds.

Found out too that Pendolino’s with tilt failure cant run MU speeds as no DAS system, which thought might be case but been confirmed, which helpful to know.

Class 390s require a TMS update before they can run at MU when non-tilt.

 

[Pendomonium]

I am awaiting feedback. I do know that MU speed compliance is compulsory on the Coventry corridor providing the driver is MU speed trained & DAS is functioning. Interested in seeing how that is working out.

To follow up. Most services are now running at MU speeds. They are pathed as such. However.... it is still a bit of hit & miss if the train accepts a headcode &/or DAS sets up. It looks like this may be an issue during disruption & tight turnarounds, but not exclusively.