7 x Class 460 up for grabs???

[thefab444]

What would the 460s work in the peak then? Bear in mind, an 8 460 seats 48F/316S (although that could be increased slightly by redesigning the luggage van and possibly taking out some FC seats); a 10 444 seats 70F/598S, and an 8 450 48F/480S. So realistically, the 460s will have to replace 5 444 diagrams in the peak, and there aren't that many of these.

I agree that the 158s and 159s should not really be running over fully electrified routes, but they're the best solution to the problem at the moment.

No units should be transferred away from SWT. That said, I've no problem with SWT hiring out a few 158s, but according to rumours they tend to come back knackered after visiting EMT/Northern; whereas any FGW hire-ins can easily start their day at Salisbury or Fratton.

 

[Fincra5]

I don't get what's so wrong with keeping trains designed for an Airport service, on an airport service.:.

The DfT

 

[90019]

I don't get what's so wrong with keeping trains designed for an Airport service, on an airport service.:.

Because that would be logical, and this is the railway we're talking about here.

 

[tbtc]

Other than the luggage areas (which can be converted/ unconverted), what else about the 460s is "designed for an Airport service"?

 

[Fincra5]

Other than the luggage areas (which can be converted/ unconverted), what else about the 460s is "designed for an Airport service"?

Presisely that. The repleacing 442s also have smaller doors which can be annoying for large bags.

 

[ChampsRacing]

If anyone has seen that wokingham has recently (5-6 months ago) been extended to 10cars on the down platform so some work has started. There are all sorts of rumours flying around mess rooms at the moment, some station 458s will go onto windsors and 450s back onto readings or the original plan that 460s will be broke up to make 458/5s. Either way i hope these 460s find a home and hopefully with us as we deffinately need the extra carriages on our already crammed commuter lines out of waterloo.

 

[northwichcat]

I agree that the 158s and 159s should not really be running over fully electrified routes, but they're the best solution to the problem at the moment.

Is there any reason for them using diesel traction, such as a frequent diversion isn't electrified?

No units should be transferred away from SWT

Units should be allocated according to the needs of the operator so if SWT have a lot of spares then they should give some of them up. Saying that operators shouldn't be robbed of most or all of their spare units so if a train fails then there's no option except short forming as has happened with Northern.

That said, I've no problem with SWT hiring out a few 158s, but according to rumours they tend to come back knackered after visiting EMT/Northern; whereas any FGW hire-ins can easily start their day at Salisbury or Fratton.

Is there any reason for that, such as routine maintaince is delayed until the unit returns to SWT or possibly because the routine schedule SWT have for the 158s isn't frequent enough for the 5 hour+ journeys that EMT use them on?

The units also have a long trip from Nottingham or Leeds back down South so I imagine they could leave fine and then need maintaince after their journey back down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because that would be logical, and this is the railway we're talking about here.

In the case of Northern they have 323s with extra luggage space and don't remain on Manchester Airport services any more than the other 323s so that isn't logical. However, in certain circumstances it can make more sense to replace luggage space with extra seating and move the units on to a non-Airport route.

 

[455driver]

If anyone has seen that wokingham has recently (5-6 months ago) been extended to 10cars on the down platform so some work has started.

That has been done for the christmas closure of Reading. A 3 coach 166 can run to the country end and a 8 coach 458 behind it platform sharing.

Either way i hope these 460s find a home and hopefully with us as we deffinately need the extra carriages on our already crammed commuter lines out of waterloo.

Very true, even this downturn hasnt had much of an effect.

 

[MCR247]

Other than the luggage areas (which can be converted/ unconverted), what else about the 460s is "designed for an Airport service"?

Wider doors than 442s and less step when I was on them

 

[charlesn132]

If they could be modified to dual voltage, I'd propose something a bit more radical such as, oh, Brighton to Manchester? (Eat that CrossCountry ) And people couldn't complain about a lack of airport stations; they would serve Brum and Gatwick, and could always be diverted - if the route is electrified; if not, get to it! - via Manchester as well. Any turbo chargers available?

Can they be converted to dual voltage? They don't seem to have a well on their roofs.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Even if they could be converted to Dual Voltage. Can anyone imagine the Class 460s operating on the WCML, ECML and GEML?

 

[Goldfish62]

If anyone has seen that wokingham has recently (5-6 months ago) been extended to 10cars on the down platform so some work has started.

When the signalling was upgraded at Wokingham to allow trains from Waterloo to reverse in service it required an extension to the down platform so the opportunity was taken to extend it to 12 coaches. It is completely unconnected with the 10 car project as Virginia Water to Reading is not included in the scheme and Reading line trains will remain as 8 coaches for the foreseeable future.

 

[Helvellyn]

Is there any reason for them using diesel traction, such as a frequent diversion isn't electrified?

As I posted on page 2, one reason is to assist in Fratton crews keeping up their traction knowledge on these units, as otherwise they would only work them on the Romsey rounders.

Another reason is that it lets Salisbury crews keep up their route knowledge between Basingstoke and Southampton, which is a divisionary route for them. Without any booked work over this route they would have to be rostered route refreshers, as they don't sign electric traction.

 

[507 001]

They cant be used on merseyrail as A) they're probably out of the tunnel load gauge and B) they don't have an end gangway door for emergency evacuation in the tunnels.
I think its ridiculous that units that were specially built for a specific job could be displaced by much older, less fit for purpose units. who wants to be hauling suitcases etc through single leaf doors?

 

[Helvellyn]

Again, agreed to a fair extent. A 4 car 450 is better used on peak services at present because of shortages of 450s, however use of 460s on SWT services (this thread) (my suggestion would be Portsmouth-Waterloo) would release 450s to negate this problem and also enable removal of diesels on routes entirely over the 3rd rail.

Using 460s on the Portsmouth route would not work, as you'd likely have to train Fratton crews up to work them in case of disruption, which is costly. With only 8 units you'd then struggle to keep that traction knowledge used. Yes, Guildford and Waterloo crews sign to Portsmouth, but just having them work the units to/from Portsmouth would be very restrictive.

There would also be the question of where you base them? Wimbledon Park maintain all the 458s, but if you base the 460s there as well you will have mainline units at what is in effect the suburban maintenance depot.

If SWT get the units then they need to be working alongside the 458s, where the crews already know the Juniper stock. But you'd still need to reconfigure the interiors and give the crews a conversion course on them as a minimum.

Best bet for these units is that they will get rebuilt (along withe the 458s) as 5-car units. I'm more hopeful that might happen after the Budget, where there was a commitment to protect capital expenditure, followed by announcements of improvements to the T&W Metro, Metrolink expansion and route modernisation of Liverpool Leeds (hopefully including the planned electrification schemes) and the rebuild of Birmingham New Street. Therefore hopefully when the spending review is completed in the Autumn the DfT will be able to go ahead with the HLOS scheme for a 10-car railway on the Windsor Lines because it could equally be classed as a capital expenditure scheme that would bring real benefits to this route.

I'd be surprised if the scheme happening would see any diesel units made surplus though - the Porterbrook proposal would see the 30x458 and 8x460 become 6x458/0 (4-car) and 30x458/5 (5-car) units, a net gain of 6 units for SWT. I believe the HLOS scheme, which would take in using platform 20 at Waterloo, would soak up the extra six units by running some additional Reading Line services in the peaks that currently can't due to lack of platform space at Waterloo.

 

[Drsatan]

There would also be the question of where you base them? Wimbledon Park maintain all the 458s, but if you base the 460s there as well you will have mainline units at what is in effect the suburban maintenance depot.

Couldn't the 460s be maintained at Fratton depot if Wimbledon depot couldn't maintain them? (which would be unusual since the 458s and 460s belong to the Juniper family, thus they probably use the same spare parts)

I'd be surprised if the scheme happening would see any diesel units made surplus though

The only way to make any DMUs surplus would be if the use of rebuilt 458s and 458/5s resulted in a 450 being made available on weekdays to work the Lymington branch, resulting in a 158 being made available for use elsewhere. Nonetheless, I accept your reasoning that some diagrams, such as the 16:38 Winchester - Totton, should be worked by 158s and 159s to retain route knowledge for Salisbury and Fratton drivers. Out of interest, when the 158or 159 used on that service arrives at Totton, where does it go next? I assume it could couple onto the back of a Salisbury - Southampton Central - Eastleigh - Romsey service.

To the best of my knowledge, the 158 on loan to FGW will be returning when FGW gets enough 150s from LOROL and LM. Longer term, electrification of Romsey-Eastleigh and Redbridge Junction to Salisbury would release 158s/159s, and finally electrification of Worting Junction - Salisbury (or all the way to Exeter St Davids) would render the 158/159 fleet surplus to requirements! But that's never going to happen.

 

[thefab444]

The Totton service then runs to Basingstoke Barton Mill. I'm not really sure why it runs beyond Southampton as it only serves Totton, and it runs 10 minutes behind another service to Totton. Presumably a lack of platform space at Southampton Central. But anyway, for it to run to Totton it will have to be a diesel unit of some kind as the yard isn't electrified.

the routine schedule SWT have for the 158s isn't frequent enough for the 5 hour+ journeys that EMT use them on?

I doubt that, more that they don't get maintained to the same levels that SWT provide.

 

[swt_passenger]

Therefore hopefully when the spending review is completed in the Autumn the DfT will be able to go ahead with the HLOS scheme for a 10-car railway on the Windsor Lines because it could equally be classed as a capital expenditure scheme that would bring real benefits to this route.

The Transport secretary is the local MP - Runnymede and Weybridge. His constituency has the SWML and the Reading Lines running through it. Might be helpful for SWT's 10 car projects...

 

[Helvellyn]

The Transport secretary is the local MP - Runnymede and Weybridge. His constituency has the SWML and the Reading Lines running through it. Might be helpful for SWT's 10 car projects...

Add in that Vince Cable is MP for Twickenham and that's two Cabinet voices that might be considered to favour the scheme.

 

[fgwrich]

The Totton service then runs to Basingstoke Barton Mill. I'm not really sure why it runs beyond Southampton as it only serves Totton, and it runs 10 minutes behind another service to Totton. Presumably a lack of platform space at Southampton Central. But anyway, for it to run to Totton it will have to be a diesel unit of some kind as the yard isn't electrified.



I doubt that, more that they don't get maintained to the same levels that SWT provide.

Wasnt the running of Totton once to do with the invisidiged Romsey to Marchwood service, originally planned to use the 170's? or am i wrong?

 

[thefab444]

No. The Romsey - Totton services were pulled a few years ago.

 

[455driver]

Instead of going to Totton they go to Salisbury, hardly "pulled".

 

[thefab444]

Well, the Totton part was pulled (e.g. the bit relevant to Marchwood/Hythe). It would be good to see that line reopened, but given the current economic situation and the amount of hot air caused, it will probably never happen.

But anyway, that's not the reason why the 16:38 Winchester - Totton service runs to Totton.

 

[Goldfish62]

Add in that Vince Cable is MP for Twickenham and that's two Cabinet voices that might be considered to favour the scheme.

And Clegg lives in Putney and uses the very trains that need extending to 10 coaches....

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Quelle Surprise! Excuse the cynic in me, but I think that would be seen as a little nest feathering.

 

[455driver]

Well, the Totton part was pulled (e.g. the bit relevant to Marchwood/Hythe). It would be good to see that line reopened, but given the current economic situation and the amount of hot air caused, it will probably never happen.

But anyway, that's not the reason why the 16:38 Winchester - Totton service runs to Totton.

But the residents didn't want those noisy, smelly diesels polluting their nice quiet neighbourhood, that is why the Totton bit was pulled.
As for the evening trip from Winchester, 2B91, I thought that ran to Totton because the residents don't want their children having to wait around in Winchester for an extra 15 minutes and have to mix with "ordinary" people on 2B47 (1652 off Winchester) so they have a special school train run from Winchester at 1638.
Or maybe its to clear the platform at Southampton Central , either one works for me.

 

[swt_passenger]

But the residents didn't want those noisy, smelly diesels polluting their nice quiet neighbourhood, that is why the Totton bit was pulled.

Nothing at all to do with the 2007 franchise renewal, and the DfT's decision that SWT take over from FGW and improve the local stoppping service between Southampton and Salisbury then...

 

[northwichcat]

B) they don't have an end gangway door for emergency evacuation in the tunnels.

Did the 502s have an end door?

 

[thefab444]

Nothing at all to do with the 2007 franchise renewal, and the DfT's decision that SWT take over from FGW and improve the local stoppping service between Southampton and Salisbury then...

Indeed, that's the reason the Totton section was pulled.

Anyone that describes Totton as a "nice quiet neighbourhood" needs a reality check. Do people get stabbed outside convenience stores, or petrol stations get held up, in "nice quiet neighbourhoods"?

 

[ukrob]

Did the 502s have an end door?

No. But they would of had grandfather rights. Having said that, the 502s were around when H&S etc were more relaxed.