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7 x Class 460 up for grabs???

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Goldfish62

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Hot on the heels of the 180 post....

It has previously been mentioned by a number of sources (and in the Sussex RUS) that the GatEX 460s are coming off lease in December this year when Southern have the full compliment of 442s. This appears all along to have been linked to Porterbrook's bid for merging them with the 458s as part of the 10-car Windsor Lines project. Porterbrook's bid was last reported in Modern railways as being at "preferred bidder" status.

It would appear from recent government announcements on major railway schemes which have not yet been contracted that the 10-car project may be cancelled.

If this is the case I wonder what happens to the 460s after December...

Ideas?
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if SWT took them on as 8 car sets, as I believe they're exactly the same as a 458, albeit with a different nose; They be perfect for the Reading line.
Also SWT would only need to re-engineer a single coach to partially seal up the luggage door, although it could be described as prudent to keep a small area as a luggage bike area.

But then again that's much too sensible idea.
 

northwichcat

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Aren't there 8 of them opposed to 7?

Merseyrail need new or newer DC trains, but they'd need them in 3 or 6 carriage formation, so if another operator takes 16 trailer cars (alternatively more driving units could be built) I'm sure Merseyrail will take 8 lots of modern 6 car trains.
 

Goldfish62

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I wouldn't be surprised if SWT took them on as 8 car sets, as I believe they're exactly the same as a 458, albeit with a different nose; They be perfect for the Reading line.
Also SWT would only need to re-engineer a single coach to partially seal up the luggage door, although it could be described as prudent to keep a small area as a luggage bike area.

But then again that's much too sensible idea.


I stand corrected - 8 sets it is!

On the face of it if the 10-car project is dead SWT don't need them as they can't put any more trains on the Reading line (and will never be able to if the Reading station remodelling also get the chop!). However, there's still 2 450s diagrammed on the Reading line, plus several on the Ascot - Guildford line, so I suppose 460s could be put on the Readings with 458s on to the Ascot - Guildford shuttle. This would all release 450s for train lengthening elsewhere.

Quite apart from the luggage van the 460s would need converting to 2+3 seating due to the sardine conditions on the Reading line (& people do like to use the middle seat on this line).
 
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I stand corrected - 8 sets it is!

On the face of it if the 10-car project is dead SWT don't need them as they can't put any more trains on the Reading line (and will never be able to if the Reading station remodelling also get the chop!). However, there's still 2 450s diagrammed on the Reading line, plus several on the Ascot - Guildford line, so I suppose 460s could be put on the Readings with 458s on to the Ascot - Guildford shuttle. This would all release 450s for train lengthening elsewhere.

Quite apart from the luggage van the 460s would need converting to 2+3 seating due to the sardine conditions on the Reading line (& people do like to use the middle seat on this line).

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

I like the 458s when I travel up to that "neck of the woods", they're more comfortable than the 450s, the only thing that lets a 458 down is the revolting toilets, people don't flush them, probably because the button is hidden behind the toilet lid, they should move it to somewhere conspicuous.
 

Goldfish62

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Bingo! You hit the nail on the head.

I like the 458s when I travel up to that "neck of the woods", they're more comfortable than the 450s, the only thing that lets a 458 down is the revolting toilets, people don't flush them, probably because the button is hidden behind the toilet lid, they should move it to somewhere conspicuous.

I actually think the whole of the interiors, and not just the toilets, are revolting - the floors are particularly disgusting. Also, when sat over the bogies the ride quality and noise levels are very poor (even compared to 1970s - built suburban stock). However, the seats are probably the most comfortable of any of the 2+3 variety in the UK and unlike the Desiros the aircon actually provides cool air in the summer.
 

Voyager 2093

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Thats true 458s and 460s are the same Train its just the cab end that is different. The are both part of the Alstom Juniper family. I read over a year ago, that SWT were to take on the 460s and 442s moving the Brighton Mainline was always the plan.
 

Goldfish62

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I read over a year ago, that SWT were to take on the 460s and 442s moving the Brighton Mainline was always the plan.


Yes - but only on the basis of the 460s merging with the 458s as 5-car units. This now looks unlikely. Hence why I started this thread, as potentially the 460s are without a home come December.
 

class313

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wouldn't loads of platforms need to be extended if they were 10 carriages long, for example Twickenham, that can only just about fit an 8-coach Juniper as it is now.
 

Goldfish62

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wouldn't loads of platforms need to be extended if they were 10 carriages long, for example Twickenham, that can only just about fit an 8-coach Juniper as it is now.


(Deep breath) Yes - that's the whole point of this discussion. If you have a look at the thread from the start it's all about what happens if as seems likely the Windsor lines. 10-car project (and, just to make clear, the associated platform extensions) is cancelled.
 

Ricardo

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First post here after spending some time observing- be gentle!

Some previous posters note the saga involving 442s being taken off the South West Mainline and put on GatEx / Brighton express services. In an ideal world, it would have been best not to have made these changes, but they have been and here we are....

A side effect of the removal of 442s from SWT has been the widespread use of 450s on the Portsmouth-Waterloo route, much to the annoyance of many users of the route. 3+2 seating on a 1 hour 40 to 2+ hour journey isnt ideal.

Perhaps the 460s could be used, in their current form (with only the mods to the luggage van described by TheExmoorBeast) to displace some 450 sets from the Portsmouth route to suburban services around London, whilst providing a more suitable 2+2 interior layout for longer distance travellers on the Portsmouth route?

I appreciate that 8 car trains would probably not provide adequate capacity for high peak services which are formed of 3*450 units, but in the shoulder peaks & off-peak, they should be fine.

Advantages of this would be the release of 450 units back onto routes they were intended for, as well as savings on the cost of refurbishment to 3+2 seating which would be necessary for suburban uses for the 460s, and also providing a more competetive product on the Portsmouth direct line which, dont forget, is now competing with Greyhound's rather luxurious coach service....a coach service which, by this time next year, will be rather competetive on journey times with the railway as well as being superior in terms of comfort and cheaper!
 

Goldfish62

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First post here after spending some time observing- be gentle!

Some previous posters note the saga involving 442s being taken off the South West Mainline and put on GatEx / Brighton express services. In an ideal world, it would have been best not to have made these changes, but they have been and here we are....

A side effect of the removal of 442s from SWT has been the widespread use of 450s on the Portsmouth-Waterloo route, much to the annoyance of many users of the route. 3+2 seating on a 1 hour 40 to 2+ hour journey isnt ideal.

Perhaps the 460s could be used, in their current form (with only the mods to the luggage van described by TheExmoorBeast) to displace some 450 sets from the Portsmouth route to suburban services around London, whilst providing a more suitable 2+2 interior layout for longer distance travellers on the Portsmouth route?

I appreciate that 8 car trains would probably not provide adequate capacity for high peak services which are formed of 3*450 units, but in the shoulder peaks & off-peak, they should be fine.

Advantages of this would be the release of 450 units back onto routes they were intended for, as well as savings on the cost of refurbishment to 3+2 seating which would be necessary for suburban uses for the 460s, and also providing a more competetive product on the Portsmouth direct line which, dont forget, is now competing with Greyhound's rather luxurious coach service....a coach service which, by this time next year, will be rather competetive on journey times with the railway as well as being superior in terms of comfort and cheaper!

Welcome to the discussion - some interesting, well thought-out ideas.
 
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Another thing people tend to forget is that the nose of a 460 is only a bolt structure, it can be removed in the event of damage.

bmar460003ockley.jpg

This is a photo from southernelectric site.
(If the owner wishes its removal please contact a moderator)

So you could just put a plain panel on it so it wouldn't look out of place.
I quite like the 460s myself only been on the GatEx twice, quite enjoyed it, well except the high price! <(
 

Helvellyn

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As a fleet of 8 units the 460s will have a limited appeal to another TOC. The advantage of the Porterbrook plan to rebuild the 458s and 460s as 5-car units (well 30 5-car units and 6 4-car units supposedly) is that it takes two units that might be classed as the red-headed step children in the DC EMU world and rebuild them for use on a dedicated set of routes (Waterloo-Waterloo Hounslow rounders; Waterloo-Windsor; Waterloo-Weybridge via Hounslow). This would allow SWT to put 450s back on the Reading services (converting HC units back to standard layout).

The rebuild might go ahead as the DfT might prefer that happening rather than have the 460s st off lease somewhere.

The other thing though is what will happen to the 456 units. Suggestions were these would go to SWT as well, so it'd be interesting to see what happens when these come off-lease with Southern after the reconfigured 377/3s enter service on metro services.
 

Ivo

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If they could be modified to dual voltage, I'd propose something a bit more radical such as, oh, Brighton to Manchester? (Eat that CrossCountry :D) And people couldn't complain about a lack of airport stations; they would serve Brum and Gatwick, and could always be diverted - if the route is electrified; if not, get to it! - via Manchester as well. Any turbo chargers available? :D
 

Goldfish62

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As a fleet of 8 units the 460s will have a limited appeal to another TOC. The advantage of the Porterbrook plan to rebuild the 458s and 460s as 5-car units (well 30 5-car units and 6 4-car units supposedly) is that it takes two units that might be classed as the red-headed step children in the DC EMU world and rebuild them for use on a dedicated set of routes (Waterloo-Waterloo Hounslow rounders; Waterloo-Windsor; Waterloo-Weybridge via Hounslow). This would allow SWT to put 450s back on the Reading services (converting HC units back to standard layout).

The rebuild might go ahead as the DfT might prefer that happening rather than have the 460s st off lease somewhere.

I hope you're right as it's a sensible use of existing stock, particularly as all dc Junipers would then be with one TOC. The thing that might scupper it though, is the required platform lengthening. Virtually every platform will need work on it, some of it quite extensive and I imagine that this is the most expensive part of the plan.

I do hope it does go ahead. My view is that it is vital - the overcrowding in the peaks on the Windsor lines is horrific - worse than the Tube - and has not abated in the slightest since the start of the economic downturn.
 

Crossforth

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If they could be modified to dual voltage, I'd propose something a bit more radical such as, oh, Brighton to Manchester? (Eat that CrossCountry :D) And people couldn't complain about a lack of airport stations; they would serve Brum and Gatwick, and could always be diverted - if the route is electrified; if not, get to it! - via Manchester as well. Any turbo chargers available? :D

Why not bring it from somewhere on the Mersey Rail network to Brighton :lol:

How easy would it be to fit a corridor connector to the 460s?
 

Ricardo

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Use of the 460s to release 450s for other duties would also provide a solution to the craziness that is SWT's operation of diesel units on fully-electrified routes due to not having enough 450s to go round.

This would allow using 450s instead of 158s and 159s on the Lymington branch and various Winchester-Southampton, Southampton-Portsmouth and Basingstoke-Eastleigh-Portsmouth trains.

As well as being much more environmentally sound (and probably cheaper to operate) it would enable us to send a few spare units from Salisbury to EMT/Northern....
 

swt_passenger

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I hope you're right as it's a sensible use of existing stock, particularly as all dc Junipers would then be with one TOC. The thing that might scupper it though, is the required platform lengthening. Virtually every platform will need work on it, some of it quite extensive and I imagine that this is the most expensive part of the plan.

The CP4 enhancement plan already does include all the platform lengthening work, costed and dated for completion between 2011 and 2013. The whole point of the discussion is that you don't get one without the other, if the suspended HLOS capacity increases are eventually reinstated, they'll extend the platforms and the trains, if not the 460s will be stored and the platforms stay as is...
 

tbtc

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Use of the 460s to release 450s for other duties would also provide a solution to the craziness that is SWT's operation of diesel units on fully-electrified routes due to not having enough 450s to go round.

This would allow using 450s instead of 158s and 159s on the Lymington branch and various Winchester-Southampton, Southampton-Portsmouth and Basingstoke-Eastleigh-Portsmouth trains.

As well as being much more environmentally sound (and probably cheaper to operate) it would enable us to send a few spare units from Salisbury to EMT/Northern....

Excellent point
 

daccer

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I have to say the diesel allocation for SWT is very dubious anyway - the 158's on the Lymington branch is a bit of a joke considering the problems up North with stock. Also they do seem to have plenty of stock to lend out to other TOC's. The route to Exeter and Salisbury would seem to be one where LHCS or even Adelantes could be used freeing up quality DMU's for use elsewhere. The DMU shortage is going to get worse and we seem to be making the problem worse by some crazy allocations.
 
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So if you had a couple of maintenance spares over and you could earn some extra cash on the side by hiring them out what would you do?

1. Sit on them & leave them in the sidings earning nothing.
2. Spot hire them out & earn a considerable sum of money for doing nothing much other than twiddle your thumbs as the stock man.
 

Goldfish62

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The CP4 enhancement plan already does include all the platform lengthening work, costed and dated for completion between 2011 and 2013. The whole point of the discussion is that you don't get one without the other, if the suspended HLOS capacity increases are eventually reinstated, they'll extend the platforms and the trains, if not the 460s will be stored and the platforms stay as is...

Good point.
 

daccer

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My issue with SWT having spares available for hire is not that they do it but the fact that they are allowed to have spare stock in the first place. If i am correct stock provision is prescribed in the franchise agreement and as such is Dft controlled (see the FGW cock up from a a year or two ago.) If they have so much slack that they can hire out a couple of units for some cash then does that not suggest tha maybe they could afford to lose a couple of units on a permanent basis. Like I said the Dft control stock allocations and this is patently a case of not making the best use of quality stock.
 

Ricardo

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My issue with SWT having spares available for hire is not that they do it but the fact that they are allowed to have spare stock in the first place. If i am correct stock provision is prescribed in the franchise agreement and as such is Dft controlled (see the FGW cock up from a a year or two ago.) If they have so much slack that they can hire out a couple of units for some cash then does that not suggest tha maybe they could afford to lose a couple of units on a permanent basis. Like I said the Dft control stock allocations and this is patently a case of not making the best use of quality stock.

Here here!

Last year the 1624 Basingstoke-Portsmouth Harbour was diagrammed as a 6 car DMU, formed of 2x 159 units. It has been cut back to a busy 1x159 now, but was half empty as a 2x159. The sight of this wasteful use of such highly sought after rolling stock would probably make a lot of commuters in north west england extremely angry, even if it provided a comfortable ride home for a lot of Winchester college students!

The SWT 158/159 fleet are the most reliable DMU fleet in the country, with MPC figures to make some EMU fleet managers green with envy. And this for a unit type which generally is only middling in the reliability league table amongst other operators.

What this means is that a higher level of utilisation is possible, and fewer spare units should be needed. Perhaps the large number of spares allocated to SWT helps with their reliability record- fewer sub-standard units forced out on diagrams, and more preventative maintenance carried out?

Regardless, there does seem to be plenty of evidence that SWT could live without a handful of 158s, particularly if an end was put to running DMUs on services which ought to be EMU operated. The 460s, via cascading 450s around the SWT network, would offer the opportunity to achieve this.

As to what to do with these diesel units? I dont think that the DfT should encourage sub-leasing of spare units by SWT to other operators as this increases costs for hirers such as FGW and EMT compared to their leasing the units via the franchising system- yet the end result is the same, ie they get extra DMUs. The extra cost of subleasing is passed onto the passenger or taxpayer (subsidy payer).
 

Helvellyn

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The SWT 158/159 fleet are the most reliable DMU fleet in the country, with MPC figures to make some EMU fleet managers green with envy. And this for a unit type which generally is only middling in the reliability league table amongst other operators.

What this means is that a higher level of utilisation is possible, and fewer spare units should be needed. Perhaps the large number of spares allocated to SWT helps with their reliability record- fewer sub-standard units forced out on diagrams, and more preventative maintenance carried out?

Regardless, there does seem to be plenty of evidence that SWT could live without a handful of 158s, particularly if an end was put to running DMUs on services which ought to be EMU operated. The 460s, via cascading 450s around the SWT network, would offer the opportunity to achieve this.
One of the reasons those MPC figures are achieved is that all bar two of the units make it back to their home depot of Salisbury every night. Furthermore, as virtually all units work through Salisbury at some point during the day it means that if a fault occurs during the day it is a lot easier to do a unit swap and get the unit into the depot for repair.

It shouldn't be forgotten that some of those diesel diagrams over the juice in Hampshire are also to help Fratton crews keep up their traction knowledge and Salisbury crews their route knowledge (diversionary route of Basingstoke-Southampton to then get to Salisbury via Romsey). Some of the diagrams they are used on also don't require a 4-car 450 unit, which is better used on peak services to/from Waterloo.

Finally, if it wasn't for the economic downturn you'd be seeing more of those "spare" 158s strengthening West of England services between Salisbury and Waterloo, as a couple do already. That could either mean another 10-car service (freeing up a 3-car from a previous 9-car) or adding a 2-car to existing 6-car services (like they did withe the 16:20 out of Waterloo).

So it comes down to these units being temporarily spare - it won't last for the franchise. If a couple of units were sent elsewhere that would mean overcrowding on West of England services - some still are and could do with being strengthened as it is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The route to Exeter and Salisbury would seem to be one where LHCS or even Adelantes could be used freeing up quality DMU's for use elsewhere. The DMU shortage is going to get worse and we seem to be making the problem worse by some crazy allocations.
Really? The benefit of the 158/159 fleet is that it gives SWT huge flexibility in train formations on the West of England services. Currently through the day they operate a mix of 3-car, 5-car, 6-car, 8-car, 9-car and 10-car services. The Exeter services generally detach/attach a unit (or units) at Salisbury so that they are not carrying lots of air down West; and/or have a Bristol portion attached too on a few services.

There are only 5 spare Adelantes now East Coast don't want them - hardly a flexible fleet choice for SWT to operate alongside the 158/159 fleet. In addition, what spare LHCS stock is there for SWT to operate on the West of England route? Who would maintain it? Who'd pay to train the Drivers/Guards on it? Is Waterloo cut out for regular locomotive operation these days - Using a 67 and a DVT means you could only have 8 23m coaches in a platform - a loss of capacity on 9-car and 10-car DMUs.

Arriva have 5 150/2 units on lease to FGW that are due to come back to ATW soon. Should they be sent to Northern instead because Arriva obviously has too many spare units if it can afford to lease them out?
 

Ricardo

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One of the reasons those MPC figures are achieved is that all bar two of the units make it back to their home depot of Salisbury every night. Furthermore, as virtually all units work through Salisbury at some point during the day it means that if a fault occurs during the day it is a lot easier to do a unit swap and get the unit into the depot for repair.

I appreciate this, however a cutback in DMU services over electrified lines, coupled with transfer away of a few units shouldnt adversely affect the operational procedures which help towards the reliability of the fleet.

Some of the diagrams they are used on also don't require a 4-car 450 unit, which is better used on peak services to/from Waterloo.

Again, agreed to a fair extent. A 4 car 450 is better used on peak services at present because of shortages of 450s, however use of 460s on SWT services (this thread) (my suggestion would be Portsmouth-Waterloo) would release 450s to negate this problem and also enable removal of diesels on routes entirely over the 3rd rail.

Finally, if it wasn't for the economic downturn you'd be seeing more of those "spare" 158s strengthening West of England services between Salisbury and Waterloo, as a couple do already. That could either mean another 10-car service (freeing up a 3-car from a previous 9-car) or adding a 2-car to existing 6-car services (like they did withe the 16:20 out of Waterloo).

As I recall, the SWML RUS (dating abck to 2006) was the document (informing the SWT re-tendering process) which identified expanded capacity on diesel operated services as the best short-term capacity boost into/out of Waterloo and hence led to the expanded allocation of 158s and the 159/1 units to SWT.

I have my doubts that such a recommendation would have been made today, what with the shortage of DMUs and the rapid growth in passenger figures in northern England......
 
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