444/450 ASDO introduction into passenger service

[SpacePhoenix]

Maybe the Desiros prefer the ASDO mode to be switched off before coupling/uncoupling

 

[Goldfish62]

As are the 455s, still going strong with the ancient EE507 motors! And still SWT's most reliable stock.

But I don't think that's true. From what I recall from the January Modern Railways they're the most reliable "Old BR" EMU, but cone no where near 450, 444 or 458/0. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Maybe the Desiros prefer the ASDO mode to be switched off before coupling/uncoupling

You can't switch it off, it's an integral system now.
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But I don't think that's true. From what I recall from the January Modern Railways they're the most reliable "Old BR" EMU, but cone no where near 450, 444 or 458/0. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

The 455s are pretty solid for reliability, the problems seem to stem from when you attach a poxy 456 to them, I've not had a single 455 fail on me for traction/mechanical reasons for a long time, it's issues with doors caused by MoP that cause the problems.

 

[GodAtum]

I have noticed a change. Not sure why it took so long when other trains have this. On SWT 444/450s there is a coach number display. Plus at Clpaham you can get off from the front 6 coaches now, instead of the front 5.

 

[infobleep]

I have noticed a change. Not sure why it took so long when other trains have this. On SWT 444/450s there is a coach number display. Plus at Clpaham you can get off from the front 6 coaches now, instead of the front 5.

Which platform is that at Clapham?

 

[GodAtum]

Which platform is that at Clapham?

7. Also the same with 12 coaches. You can now get off from the fron 9 instead of the front 8.

 

[RichardN]

One thing I noticed last night was a 3x450 service at Woking (the 17:56), the PIS system at the platform said passengers for Guildford should board the front 11 coaches. I can't remember any messages about front 8 only for Guildford before.

Was it a tight squeeze before, so now we have the technology it's safer to lock out the last coach? Or is this the platform PIS being pessimistic about which platform the 12 coach train could use at Guildford? The train actually ended up on platform 4 at Guildford, which is the most commonly used platfom for Portsmouth bound trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

One thing I noticed last night was a 3x450 service at Woking (the 17:56), the PIS system at the platform said passengers for Guildford should board the front 11 coaches. I can't remember any messages about front 8 only for Guildford before.

Was it a tight squeeze before, so now we have the technology it's safer to lock out the last coach? Or is this the platform PIS being pessimistic about which platform the 12 coach train could use at Guildford? The train actually ended up on platform 4 at Guildford, which is the most commonly used platfom for Portsmouth bound trains.

This particular unnecessary 11 car limit has been mentioned earlier in the thread. (infobleep's post 69) I replied that I thought it might be because the normally timetabled platform has an 11 car limit in the opposite direction. The station PIS thence defaulting to the shorter length.

(I also mentioned another example, Eastleigh P3, which has an incorrect 9 car limitation shown on station screens in the down direction, although the trains open 12 cars.)

However poster HarleyDavidson reckoned this was not the case at Guildford. So no-one was really sure why it happens there, but clearly the info on station platforms and what happens on the actual train is different.

SWT eventually issued a news release about ASDO, and they have requested apparent faults be reported to staff, or by comment form:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/NewTechnology.aspx

 

[RichardN]

This particular unnecessary 11 car limit has been mentioned earlier in the thread. (infobleep's post 69) I replied that I thought it might be because the normally timetabled platform has an 11 car limit in the opposite direction. The station PIS thence defaulting to the shorter length.

Thanks, looked back through the thread and missed that. Does everything still work OK on mixed 444/450 combos?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, looked back through the thread and missed that. Does everything still work OK on mixed 444/450 combos?

I'm sure Pumbaa has previously told me (either here or by PM) that 444/450 and 450/444 have definitely been tested and will release an appropriate number of carriages.

 

[infobleep]

I'm sure Pumbaa has previously told me (either here or by PM) that 444/450 and 450/444 have definitely been tested and will release an appropriate number of carriages.

I saw a 444/450 combination at Woking today heading north but I wasn't on it so can't comment on how it works with door opening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This particular unnecessary 11 car limit has been mentioned earlier in the thread. (infobleep's post 69) I replied that I thought it might be because the normally timetabled platform has an 11 car limit in the opposite direction. The station PIS thence defaulting to the shorter length.

(I also mentioned another example, Eastleigh P3, which has an incorrect 9 car limitation shown on station screens in the down direction, although the trains open 12 cars.)

However poster HarleyDavidson reckoned this was not the case at Guildford. So no-one was really sure why it happens there, but clearly the info on station platforms and what happens on the actual train is different.

SWT eventually issued a news release about ASDO, and they have requested apparent faults be reported to staff, or by comment form:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/NewTechnology.aspx

Some years ago there use to be announcements about needing to be in the front 5 coaches of a 10 coach train at Guildford. This would be when I've come from Waterloo or Clapham Junction and no doubt on a Sunday or late at night when platform 2 would have been used.

I don't ever remember the guard saying anything and seem to think k it could handle 10 carriages. However I may have been wrong and it may only have handled 5.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Platform 2 at Guildford can accommodate 12 coaches in the down direction only,that's regardless of whether the train arrives from Woking or the Cobham line.

It can only accommodate 10 coaches in the up direction due to GD750, being 3/4 of the way along it.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm sure Pumbaa has previously told me (either here or by PM) that 444/450 and 450/444 have definitely been tested and will release an appropriate number of carriages.

Indeed. TMS knows which trains are in which order and actions appropriately.

 

[TEW]

Some years ago there use to be announcements about needing to be in the front 5 coaches of a 10 coach train at Guildford. This would be when I've come from Waterloo or Clapham Junction and no doubt on a Sunday or late at night when platform 2 would have been used.

I don't ever remember the guard saying anything and seem to think k it could handle 10 carriages. However I may have been wrong and it may only have handled 5.

Any train booked to call at Platform 2 at Guildford will still be announced as having a short platform. Front 10 on a 450, front 7 or 8 on a 444 (not sure which). The issue with Platform 4 at Guildford being announced as a short platform is just an error with the data.

 

[Goldfish62]

The displays at Waterloo for Reading-bound trains now indicate front seven coaches for Egham even though the doors are released on all eight coaches. Just an input error, I presume.

 

[Alan White]

Of course, it's not the platforms which are short but the trains which are longer, but I get ahead of myself.

Here are two similar things which puzzled me today. The first occurred on an 8-coach class 450 up train from Bracknell. Approaching Longcross the guard announced that anyone wishing to alight at Longcross needed to be in the first seven coaches because of a short platform. I happened to be in the last section of the eighth coach and sure enough the doors didn't open. Or, more accurately, the bleep indicating the doors were unlocked didn't sound. The curious thing is that the up platform at Longcross is long enough for 8-coach trains, as evidenced by the fact that at my seat I could see platform and could quite easily and safely have stepped on to it, had I wished to and the doors been unlocked. The platform even seemed longer than Bracknell's. So why did the guard unlock only the first seven coaches? I've been through Longcross many times and I don't recall this happening previously. Of course, no-one ever gets on or off at Longcross so this is all rather academic .

The second incident happened on a down train (a class 455, I think) from Waterloo to Windsor. I jumped on at the last door as the train was about to leave, intending to get off at Feltham. Shortly after leaving Waterloo the guard announced that anyone wishing to alight at Feltham (and others) must be in the first seven coaches. I hadn't heard this before either (in connection with Feltham). I duly moved forward into the next coach and as we approached Feltham I moved forward another coach for no good reason other than that I needed to be nearer the Oyster readers. As it turned out, this was rather fortuitous because when the train stopped the doors didn't unlock even though I was standing next to the platform.

I and a couple of other customers rushed forward another coach just in time to get off before the doors closed. After the train had left I asked the dispatcher why the doors in the eighth coach weren't unlocked even though the down platform accommodates 8-coach trains and he said that on the refurbished trains there are restrictions on the door opening which prevents the 8th, 9th & 10th coaches' doors being unlocked (except, presumably, at stations where all ten coaches can be used, such as the up platform at Feltham ). It was only during during my conversation with the dispatcher that I realised I'd just got off a 10-coach train which is why I'd had to move forward further than expected (some signage would be useful, SWT).

Can anyone shed any light on these 7-coach limitations?

 

[najaB]

I happened to be in the last section of the eighth coach and sure enough the doors didn't open. Or, more accurately, the bleep indicating the doors were unlocked didn't sound. The curious thing is that the up platform at Longcross is long enough for 8-coach trains, as evidenced by the fact that at my seat I could see platform and could quite easily and safely have stepped on to it, had I wished to and the doors been unlocked.

There may have been platform outside your window, but it may not be usable.

 

[Alan White]

There may have been platform outside your window, but it may not be usable.

Nothing visibly wrong with it: it's exactly the same as all the rest of the platform, no barrier or demarcation of any kind. Anyone waiting there to board a train would have no clue they couldn't board there.

 

[najaB]

Nothing visibly wrong with it: it's exactly the same as all the rest of the platform, no barrier or demarcation of any kind. Anyone waiting there to board a train would have no clue they couldn't board there.

Have the platforms been extended recently? It is possible that the full length isn't in use as yet.

 

[TEW]

Longcross did not require the old manual SDO system to be used, all 8 carriages were unlocked. 8-458s, without SDO, call at Longcross too. Odd that a carriage is now being locked on 450s.

 

[Alan White]

Have the platforms been extended recently?

Not that I can see. They look just as they've done for many years.

 

[SWT_USER]

The departure boards at Waterloo also advise front 7 coaches only for Egham on a Reading train yet 8 coach trains have been calling there for years with no issue.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The guard has no control over how many coaches open as it is controlled by the Train Management System on board which reads the platform length data from beacons installed a few metres into the platform. If the eigth coach coach has fully passed over the platform beacon then that coach will not open regardless of whether it is accommodated or not. At Feltham I believe you were on a blue class 458 which uses an almost identical system, had it been a 455 all doors would have opened as there is no selective door operation of 455s. When you boarded at Waterloo you would have been in the tenth coach not the eighth coach as you appear to have thought.

 

[CardiffKid]

Do the two platforms match up or are they possibly not built directly opposite each other?

 

[swt_passenger]

The guard has no control over how many coaches open as it is controlled by the Train Management System on board which reads the platform length data from beacons installed a few metres into the platform. If the eigth coach coach has fully passed over the platform beacon then that coach will not open regardless of whether it is accommodated or not. At Feltham I believe you were on a blue class 458 which uses an almost identical system, had it been a 455 all doors would have opened as there is no selective door operation of 455s. When you boarded at Waterloo you would have been in the tenth coach not the eighth coach as you appear to have thought.

Have you missed the word 'not' out there Matt? I think you meant to say "If the eighth coach has NOT fully passed..."

However I don't think that's quite right anyway, as the system was originally described it was only the 458/5s which have a sensor for every individual carriage, so only they require the carriage to pass over the balise to open.

Pumbaa explained it here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2326165&postcount=51

On the Desiros, isn't the balise only read the once as the train enters the platform, and if a long train stops short of the relevant stop marker, then there is still a possibility of a rear coach's doors opening off the platform.

Maybe at a station such as Longcross the ASDO programmers have adopted a more conservative view of what is possible, allowing for a tolerance in the cab stop position?

Additionally, and as discussed in the earlier SWT ASDO thread in the rolling stock section, there have also been a number of reports of station PIS displays and announcements giving incorrect information about door opening at stations further down the line. Eastleigh and Guildford were two examples.

 

[Goldfish62]

The departure boards at Waterloo also advise front 7 coaches only for Egham on a Reading train yet 8 coach trains have been calling there for years with no issue.

Yet the doors on the eighth coach are unlocked as they always have been.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Longcross did not require the old manual SDO system to be used, all 8 carriages were unlocked. 8-458s, without SDO, call at Longcross too. Odd that a carriage is now being locked on 450s.

The up train I caught this morning - 0839 from Reading released the doors of all eight coaches at Longcross - as has always been done. So I've no idea what's going on.

 

[Pumbaa]

The CIS entry for Egham is a mistake and should be rectified shortly.

I have no idea about Longcross. Definitely only opened 7 on the down the other day.

Feltham is a case of conservative programming for the 458/5s as they require a greater degree of accurate stopping.

 

[Juniper Driver]

SWT passenger is right,the 458 and desiro systems work different.

The CIS entry for Egham is a mistake and should be rectified shortly.

I have no idea about Longcross. Definitely only opened 7 on the down the other day.

Feltham is a case of conservative programming for the 458/5s as they require a greater degree of accurate stopping.

Im not so sure.Here is an example.AFAIK.

450 stop on the 4 with an 8 and it will open what's programmed in the beacon,say 8.
458 stop on the 4 with an 8 and it will open 4.