4 track v HS2

[stevieinselby]

Expanding the original alignment would also then require some sharper corners on a line that is wiggly enough as it is. Either that, or some very expensive and space-hungry realignments.

I suspect the cost of all that wouldn't be far off the original budget for HS2, especially as you'd have to keep the WCML open while doing the works. Construction inflation and poor management do not eliminate the root problems which necessitated a new railway.

This is what a lot of people don't get when they say "just improve the existing lines" ... widening a railway from 2 tracks to 4 is not like adding an extra lane to a motorway, you can't just whack some cones down and slap a 50mph limit on it and work alongside passing traffic ... the disruption to rail services is orders of magnitude more extensive, and that makes it dramatically more expensive when you consider the total cost to the country (as opposed to just the construction cost).

 

[NCT]

And even adding an extra lane to a motorway costs about the same as building a new motorway.

 

[stuu]

We could have pursued the standard European approach to HSR, which is to use conventional tracks as far as Watford and not to build entirely new stations.

We could have done if the approached to Euston weren't already full. No one would have built a new station and tunnelled into London unless it was necessary. And the basic premise is wrong anyway, the approach elsewhere is nothing like homogeneous. Spain above all, but also LGV Atlantique into Paris, Bologna, Florence, Lille all have new tracks into/through the city and new or expanded stations.

 

[FGWHST43009]

We could have done if the approached to Euston weren't already full. No one would have built a new station and tunnelled into London unless it was necessary. And the basic premise is wrong anyway, the approach elsewhere is nothing like homogeneous. Spain above all, but also LGV Atlantique into Paris, Bologna, Florence, Lille all have new tracks into/through the city and new or expanded stations.

Surely in Europe they separate the new line and new station into 2 separate projects, while HS2 is the new line and new stations combined? Does the cost of HS2 also include the cost of the trains?

 

[Tester]

Um, there’s only 5 running lines from Primrose Hill to Camden South Junction.

There was a sixth one (depending on definition of running!)

 

[The Pelican]

One of the issues with the "new capacity to the centre, vs to the edge of the city" arguments is that Euston has always been very expensive, while the Birmingham, Manchester and earlier Leeds stations are all very good value, lots of platforms in attractive mini-Victorian terminus stations for very reasonable prices. This was because there was reasonably price land near existing main stations in all three cities.

This contrasts with the issue that the number of platforms at Euston is highly cost sensitive but vital to the sucess of the line as a whole. It's a tricky issue.

 

[NCT]

One of the issues with the "new capacity to the centre, vs to the edge of the city" arguments is that Euston has always been very expensive, while the Birmingham, Manchester and earlier Leeds stations are all very good value, lots of platforms in attractive mini-Victorian terminus stations for very reasonable prices. This was because there was reasonably price land near existing main stations in all three cities.

This contrasts with the issue that the number of platforms at Euston is highly cost sensitive but vital to the sucess of the line as a whole. It's a tricky issue.

It's the London end that accrues the value as well. If you can't get into the CAZ then the business case completely evaporates.

 

[mmh]

And even adding an extra lane to a motorway costs about the same as building a new motorway.

Because in general we didn't build motorways with future widening in mind. It was common in the US for freeways to be built with large central reservations / medians which could accommodate an extra 2 lanes. In many places they've been widened that way, in some others the space has been used for railway lines (although stations in the middle of a freeway tend to be, well, "interesting"...)

That's an awful lot cheaper than widening to the side, which means rebuilding each junction, bridge etc, so it ends up being similar to a completely new road. We couldn't have done that everywhere in Britain of course, but there's plenty of places where we could have.

 

[Grimsby town]

Another disadvantage of adding additonal tracks to an existing line is the disruption to roads and therefore people walking, cycling, driving and taking a bus. If you look at videos of HS2 construction, road bridges are often built next to existing roads so the existing roads can remain open until the new bridge is opened. There isn't space to do that in urban areas.

 

[alf]

Yes...Only five tracks for the short distance from Primrose Hill to Camden South Junction BUT all the slow line freights & diverted London Underground services to (& from) Highbury & Islington have peeled off towards Camden Road.
And if 6 running lines are needed one of the many carriage sidings on the site of the old steam Camden MPD could be restored to a running line.

 

[BoroAndy]

Interesting what debate I started, but my point of lack of 4 tracking in the far north seems to have become advantages of an extra double track in the south. Like everything else in this country, its time the north was prioritised over the south for a change.

 

[Zomboid]

I think you might have led us astray with the thread title.

HS2 is about extra tracks on the busiest parts of the N-S main lines, which are not in the north.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but, wonder if people agree with me that HS2 money would have been better spent on making 2 track busy lines into 4 track,

It would never happen. The railway has known that the Digswell viaduct has been inadequate for a century, and not a thing has been done to improve matters. The longer infrastructure is in place, the more protected it becomes.

Then, for example, look at attempts at upgrading the network around Oxfordshire and East-West.

The campaign against the electrification of Goring

Network Rail apologises for Goring Gap gantries

Network Rail apologises for building large new gantries in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty without consulting neighbours.

www.bbc.co.uk

The campaign against the demolition of the Brunel Bridge, Steventon

Village wins fight to save bridge from Network Rail demolition

A BATTLE to save a village’s historic railway bridge from demolition has ended in success.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk

The campaign against the replacement of the Botley Bridge

We're furious as the council is closing our main road for a year - it's insane

LOCALS are up in arms about a council’s plans to close a main road for an entire year, saying it will bring noise and traffic chaos. On an average day, driving the mile from Oxford’s ring-road down…

www.thesun.co.uk

The campaign against the upgrade of the Bicester line

Rail link could force stables to close down

RIDING school owners fear they might have to close and sell their animals because of noise from a new rail link.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk

'New Oxford-London rail link threatens our homes'

NORTH Oxford residents have voiced concerns about the impact of the proposed Oxford to London Marylebone route on their properties.

www.oxfordmail.co.uk

The campaign against the upgrade of Bedford station

Shock as a further 10 Bedford properties could be demolished as EWR unveils "design changes" - Bedford Independent

Bedford Borough Council, the local MP and campaigners have reacted with shock at the news that a further 10 properties on Ashburnham...

www.bedfordindependent.co.uk

The Campaign against East-West South Cambridgeshire

South Cambridgeshire residents speak of East West Rail concerns

There are calls for an inquiry into a planned railway line that will go through south Cambridgeshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[FMerrymon]

Surely in Europe they separate the new line and new station into 2 separate projects, while HS2 is the new line and new stations combined? Does the cost of HS2 also include the cost of the trains?

All figures, since the budget was set in 2013, have included rolling stock for HS2. Prior to the budget, rolling stock was stated separately.

In France, stations are rarely included in the cost. LGV Est has parkway stations funded regionally. LGV line Tours-Bordeaux runs into existing stations along the route connected by existing lines - the cost of upgrades and connections was separate to the cost of the line. For their Paris stations, capacity was created by the RER network - they just needed to upgrade the lines going in.

Roughly half the cost of HS2 phase 1 has been in the urban sections, the stations, the rolling stock, things that LGV costs wouldn't include.