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4 Track Chiltern Mainline.

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quailking14

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Before the Beeching cuts of the 1960s, the Chiltern mainline from Tyseley to Dorridge used to have 4 tracks, with Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull stations having 2 platforms, as opposed to one platform as they do now. I was once thinking about the practicality of restoring the 4-tracks from Tyseley to Dorridge, and restoring second platforms on Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull stations to increase capacity and train Frequency on this part of the line?
 
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The Planner

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Before the Beeching cuts of the 1960s, the Chiltern mainline from Tyseley to Dorridge used to have 4 tracks, with Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull stations having 2 platforms, as opposed to one platform as they do now. I was once thinking about the practicality of restoring the 4-tracks from Tyseley to Dorridge, and restoring second platforms on Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull stations to increase capacity and train Frequency on this part of the line?
It was being considered, but not 4 tracks from Tyseley. More like Olton towards Lapworth if I recall. That was pre COVID though.
 

Cherry_Picker

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They built a car park on top of the track bed at Acocks Green station which would be a problem if doing it from Tyseley. Unless that gets solved is there much point in doing it because all would be happening is that the bottleneck gets moved from Dorridge to Acocks Green. Over the years there have been a bunch of reports in local news about how Solihull station might be getting a third platform back (which is one way of describing the proposals I guess) and while it would make sense to do this given that it's a busy stretch of line that's trying to combine express, local and freight traffic I don't think there's the money to make it happen any time soon, but there is absolutely the room to do it if somebody figures out what to do with the parking at Acocks Green.
 

JJmoogle

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Widney Manor also has a car park on top of it, there's a missing bridge span over the M42 also, although they left cutouts to fit one.

Maybe they'll look at it when they get around to electrifying the Snow Hill lines, it's not an insurmountable obsticle, an annoying one though.
 

The Planner

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Widney Manor also has a car park on top of it, there's a missing bridge span over the M42 also, although they left cutouts to fit one.
They are on the wrong side though. The old tracks were south of the bridge.
 

Kingston Dan

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They built a car park on top of the track bed at Acocks Green station which would be a problem if doing it from Tyseley. Unless that gets solved is there much point in doing it because all would be happening is that the bottleneck gets moved from Dorridge to Acocks Green. Over the years there have been a bunch of reports in local news about how Solihull station might be getting a third platform back (which is one way of describing the proposals I guess) and while it would make sense to do this given that it's a busy stretch of line that's trying to combine express, local and freight traffic I don't think there's the money to make it happen any time soon, but there is absolutely the room to do it if somebody figures out what to do with the parking at Acocks Green.
Dig up some of the car parking spaces and convert to railway? Or is it a multi storey carpark?
 

Meerkat

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There is roughly 4.5km between Olton and Widney Manor exclusive. Would that be enough? It would avoid building a new platform at Olton, just new ones at Solihull where you probably could do with more anyway.
They are on the wrong side though. The old tracks were south of the bridge.
Are you sure the tracks weren’t slewed to the south side to go over the bridge? No idea why but it does look a bit like it.
edit - just watched a cab ride and it does look like the tracks swap to the south side to go over the motorway. However…..there is a modern bridge over Monkspath Hall Road 500m south of Solihull that looks suspiciously like 3 track rather than 4, though why they would do that I can’t guess!
 
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The Planner

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There is roughly 4.5km between Olton and Widney Manor exclusive. Would that be enough? It would avoid building a new platform at Olton, just new ones at Solihull where you probably could do with more anyway.

Are you sure the tracks weren’t slewed to the south side to go over the bridge? No idea why but it does look a bit like it.
edit - just watched a cab ride and it does look like the tracks swap to the south side to go over the motorway. However…..there is a modern bridge over Monkspath Hall Road 500m south of Solihull that looks suspiciously like 3 track rather than 4, though why they would do that I can’t guess!
It happens more often than you think. The M42 over the Cov corridor is the same, enough for 4 tracks with two new on the south side. Check the new A45 bridge and its one either side!
 

Meerkat

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It happens more often than you think. The M42 over the Cov corridor is the same, enough for 4 tracks with two new on the south side. Check the new A45 bridge and its one either side!
Not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing whether the line has been slewed to the south to go over the motorway, as it looks in the cab ride?
Does anyone know if the new bridge to the south of Solihull is 3 or 4 - was there a loop there when they built the bridge?
 

The Planner

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Not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing whether the line has been slewed to the south to go over the motorway, as it looks in the cab ride?
Does anyone know if the new bridge to the south of Solihull is 3 or 4 - was there a loop there when they built the bridge?
It has probably been slewed, but to get 4 tracks back along there using the parapets that are there (which allow for 4) then the slew could potentially affect the line speed. I can't see anyone getting 4 tracks over Monkspath Road and there was no loop.
 

quailking14

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but there is absolutely the room to do it if somebody figures out what to do with the parking at Acocks Green.
Indeed. This may sound outlandish, but I say either an underground station or be elevated on a building above the station. Both ideas would be costly.

Also, I think a 4 track railway would also free up capacity for freight trains along with increasing capacity/frequency of WMR/Chiltern rail services. I also think that this, along with the proposed Moor Street Upgrades could allow crosscountry Services at Dorridge, Solihull and Moor Street
 

Meerkat

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It has probably been slewed, but to get 4 tracks back along there using the parapets that are there (which allow for 4) then the slew could potentially affect the line speed. I can't see anyone getting 4 tracks over Monkspath Road and there was no loop.
Weird why they would spec a bridge as 3 track, or is that 2 track with safer walking routes?
 

SynthD

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Also, I think a 4 track railway would also free up capacity for freight trains along with increasing capacity/frequency of WMR/Chiltern rail services. I also think that this, along with the proposed Moor Street Upgrades could allow crosscountry Services at Dorridge, Solihull and Moor Street
Where are the freight trains going?

There’s a plan for Crosscountry to reach Moor St by the nearer Bordsley chords.
 

The Planner

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Where are the freight trains going?

There’s a plan for Crosscountry to reach Moor St by the nearer Bordsley chords.
South Coast to the NW/NE, plenty of Intermodal along there. None of the Bournemouth/Reading services will go to Moor St. The chords will be for services from the SW/NE
 

Snow1964

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The section through Acocks Green was quadrupled around 1906, it was extended 7 miles in early 1930s to south of Lapworth.

The new widened tracks had new bridges so not surprising that some later slewing took place.

There is interesting photo of the testing of the new bridges, 4 King locos (heaviest GWR had) were run together at 62mph to test deflection etc. Old school type test, if that passed, good for anything that would pass over them.

 

quailking14

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There’s a plan for Crosscountry to reach Moor St by the nearer Bordsley chords
Indeed, and restoring the 3rd/4th tracks and second platforms at Solihull might enable Crosscountry to stop at Solihull as Virgin Crosscountry did up to 2004.

Also, another point worth considering is that most passengers coming from Birmingham's outskirts to Moor Street / Snow Hill come from Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull, so capacity increased in those areas after restoring 4 track railway can indeed increase train frequency. I would also support platforms being extended to allow 6 or even 7 car trains to stop at those stations.

Electrification is also worth thinking about!
 

The Planner

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Indeed, and restoring the 3rd/4th tracks and second platforms at Solihull might enable Crosscountry to stop at Solihull as Virgin Crosscountry did up to 2004.

Also, another point worth considering is that most passengers coming from Birmingham's outskirts to Moor Street / Snow Hill come from Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull, so capacity increased in those areas after restoring 4 track railway can indeed increase train frequency. I would also support platforms being extended to allow 6 or even 7 car trains to stop at those stations.

Electrification is also worth thinking about!
The Solihull stops were binned as it was crowding them out as the fast services. I doubt XC will ever stop there again, even if the Reading Newcastle stays on that route. You are more likely to see a recast back to the 3tph locals to Dorridge first. Its only Olton that cannot fit a 6 car as it stands.
 

quailking14

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The Solihull stops were binned as it was crowding them out as the fast services. I doubt XC will ever stop there again, even if the Reading Newcastle stays on that route
Correct. However, Solihull station is due for some redevelopment including a new station building which will increase capacity and could accommodate XC commuters.
Solihull-Station-Hub-design.png


Also, restoring the other platform might allow extra waiting space. Also, I say increasing train frequency would give people more choice over which "fast" train to take, so would prevent commuters from clustering around just a few trains.
 

zwk500

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Indeed, and restoring the 3rd/4th tracks and second platforms at Solihull might enable Crosscountry to stop at Solihull as Virgin Crosscountry did up to 2004.
This is very unlikely, the point of 4-tracking would be to allow XC to overtake while the stoppers call at Solihull!
Also, another point worth considering is that most passengers coming from Birmingham's outskirts to Moor Street / Snow Hill come from Acocks Green, Olton and Solihull, so capacity increased in those areas after restoring 4 track railway can indeed increase train frequency. I would also support platforms being extended to allow 6 or even 7 car trains to stop at those stations.
6 or 8 would be the sensible lengths to plan for, to allow a uniform fleet of 3 or 4 car units rather than a mix.
Electrification is also worth thinking about!
Agreed - to me, the Snow Hill local lines services are an obvious electrification candidate, with wires potentially getting to Leamington for operational ease.
 

quailking14

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6 or 8 would be the sensible lengths to plan for, to allow a uniform fleet of 3 or 4 car units rather than a mix.
Indeed. Basically in a similar fashion to 323s on the cross city line. However, Olton station is where I am skeptical about feasibility for significant platform extensions unless the platform can be constructed over the bridges on both sides of the station.

Agreed - to me, the Snow Hill local lines services are an obvious electrification candidate, with wires potentially getting to Leamington for operational ease.
Agreed, and I would like electrification for the whole Chiltern mainline to London Marylebone. But, I am weary about the low height of some bridges on the line, which may require their demolition and higher bridges be installed. which can get very costly. My biggest concern for electrification is the snow hill tunnel, given it's very low height, and my solution would be to have electrified flat metal bars at the tunnel's ceilings which pantographs can touch instead of overhead wires. If all challenged could be overcome, I am all for electrification!
 

zwk500

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Indeed. Basically in a similar fashion to 323s on the cross city line. However, Olton station is where I am skeptical about feasibility for significant platform extensions unless the platform can be constructed over the bridges on both sides of the station.
Options exist for calling at stations with platforms shorter than the train.
Agreed, and I would like electrification for the whole Chiltern mainline to London Marylebone. But, I am weary about the low height of some bridges on the line, which may require their demolition and higher bridges be installed. which can get very costly. My biggest concern for electrification is the snow hill tunnel, given it's very low height, and my solution would be to have electrified flat metal bars at the tunnel's ceilings which pantographs can touch instead of overhead wires. If all challenged could be overcome, I am all for electrification!
Long-term yes I agree Marylebone-Birmingham should be wired, although I would focus on Birmingham suburban and inner London first, then Oxford, then joining the dots. Snow Hill tunnel is tight but other tight tunnels have been done, and fixed conductor bar solutions are a fairly proven solution. For a line with 4-6tph pre-covid and in the heart of a major urban area the benefits of electrification are substantial.
 

A0

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Long-term yes I agree Marylebone-Birmingham should be wired, although I would focus on Birmingham suburban and inner London first, then Oxford, then joining the dots. Snow Hill tunnel is tight but other tight tunnels have been done, and fixed conductor bar solutions are a fairly proven solution. For a line with 4-6tph pre-covid and in the heart of a major urban area the benefits of electrification are substantial.

The focus should absolutely be on wiring the Birmingham suburban lines - the number of DMUs that would remove and improve air quality in Birmingham justifies that alone. When compared with the other large metropolitan conurbations in the UK, Birmingham's local rail network is still disproportionately reliant on DMUs. Electrifying Stratford / Leamington - Birmingham - Kidderminster would address that.
 

BrianW

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The focus should absolutely be on wiring the Birmingham suburban lines - the number of DMUs that would remove and improve air quality in Birmingham justifies that alone. When compared with the other large metropolitan conurbations in the UK, Birmingham's local rail network is still disproportionately reliant on DMUs. Electrifying Stratford / Leamington - Birmingham - Kidderminster would address that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How is it that a Conservative West Midlands Metro Mayor has not secured Porkbarrel funding of this 'obvious' candidate for investment in decarbonisation?
 

zwk500

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How is it that a Conservative West Midlands Metro Mayor has not secured Porkbarrel funding of this 'obvious' candidate for investment in decarbonisation?
Because they've been focusing on the trams instead?
 

A0

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How is it that a Conservative West Midlands Metro Mayor has not secured Porkbarrel funding of this 'obvious' candidate for investment in decarbonisation?

Perhaps that disproves the conspiracy theorist view that such funding is done for "porkbarrel" reasons ?
 

quailking14

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Because they've been focusing on the trams instead?
Trams are indeed taking up funding, but also, the Camp Hill line is being reopened (which should be electrified too)

However, all the TFWM infrastructure projects always get delayed, so the "porkbarrel" theory does hold some credibility. One such case is the new university station extension being delayed for like 2 years!

Well, transport infrastructure is another reason why more devolved powers / federalism is needed in the UK.

Away from politics, but linked to Trams, I do think the midland metro should be expanded into Solihull centre to Touchwood shopping centre, and then should stop at Solihull station.
 

A0

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Trams are indeed taking up funding, but also, the Camp Hill line is being reopened (which should be electrified too)

However, all the TFWM infrastructure projects always get delayed, so the "porkbarrel" theory does hold some credibility. One such case is the new university station extension being delayed for like 2 years!

Well, transport infrastructure is another reason why more devolved powers / federalism is needed in the UK.

Away from politics, but linked to Trams, I do think the midland metro should be expanded into Solihull centre to Touchwood shopping centre, and then should stop at Solihull station.

Bit in bold - I think you misunderstand the meaning of "porkbarrel politics" - because things getting delayed ist the exact opposite of such behaviour. Instead porkbarrel politics would suggest alot of money is being spent there and improvements are happening as a result of people voting for a certain candidate. Things being delayed or not happening suggests the money *isn't* being spent there.


If you say that someone is using pork barrel politics, you mean that they are spending a lot of government money on a local project in order to win the votes of the people who live in that area.
 

quailking14

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Oh, it is also worth noting that at Widney Manor, the areas where the 3rd and 4th tracks used to be is now a car park, like with Acocks Green. Removal of car park would mean it would have to be relocated, maybe underground or in a building above the station. However, both would be expensive, and the latter may become an eyesore for locals.

Back with electrification, I do wonder what rolling stock WMR/Chiltern would use if Chiltern mainline was quadrupled and electrified?
 
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