377 fire at Eastbourne (28/11)

[cjmillsnun]

My parents run a firm that do quality control checks on gas servicing for local authorities, housing associations etc.

You don't want to know the quality of work and glaring safety risks from Gas Safe engineers, or what Gas Safe do and say to excuse their members. But that's a topic of conversation for another thread and forum.

Gas safety is vital, but don't think that engineers are all good at their job!

Yes, electrical safety is important too and I said the cartel but because the industry has worked hard to have similar requirements, and in many ways has succeeded as mentioned.

I wouldn't rewire a home or install new sockets etc, but I can and would change a light switch or ceiling rose etc. I've had basic training, but cannot issue a certificate as I'd have to pay to become qualified.

There is no legal requirement to be trained on PAT testing.

 

[trainmania100]

37800 lead 377442 with 37884 on the rear through Lewes around half an hour early.
If anyone is interested my video of the drag of the damaged unit can be found HERE
Didn't see any windows taped up the unit looked fine from the outside

 

[RichardKing]

37800 lead 377442 with 37884 on the rear through Lewes around half an hour early.
If anyone is interested my video of the drag of the damaged unit can be found HERE
Didn't see any windows taped up the unit looked fine from the outside

Well done for catching it!
If you skip to 33 seconds, you can just about see the tape covering the right-hand side window.

 

[fgwrich]

37800 lead 377442 with 37884 on the rear through Lewes around half an hour early.
If anyone is interested my video of the drag of the damaged unit can be found HERE
Didn't see any windows taped up the unit looked fine from the outside

That must have bought some amusement / frustration to many today. The only Southern train on the move having to be hauled by 2 37s.

 

[trainmania100]

That must have bought some amusement / frustration to many today. The only Southern train on the move having to be hauled by 2 37s.

As a matter of fact many 377s were out on the southern network today on Doo tests

Thanks Richard

 

[Deepgreen]

As a matter of fact many 377s were out on the southern network today on Doo tests

Thanks Richard

Who is/was driving all these trains? Why are 'DOO tests' necessary now? Surely Southern will have made absolutely sure that they can operate DOO before entering into their aggressive dispute and forcing through the OBS changes?!! Is it the case that they actually don't know whether DOO can be used where they have claimed to be desperate to introduce it?!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Who is/was driving all these trains? Why are 'DOO tests' necessary now?

Presumably either non-union members, or a union member that is not on strike, or a driver manager. From the overspeeding incident we know they are better let out when there is no one else around!

 

[Deepgreen]

Presumably either non-union members, or a union member that is not on strike, or a driver manager. From the overspeeding incident we know they are better let out when there is no one else around!

Sorry - what incident?

As an aside, where did the now-established term 'drag' come from in these circumstances? Stock is not 'dragged', it is 'hauled'. 'Dragged' implies a significant resistance to movement - e.g. wheels locked and sliding. We know this isn't the case, so what's wrong with 'hauled' when moving 'dead' stock?

 

[Domh245]

Sorry - what incident?

As an aside, where did the now-established term 'drag' come from in these circumstances? Stock is not 'dragged', it is 'hauled'. 'Dragged' implies a significant resistance to movement - e.g. wheels locked and sliding. We know this isn't the case, so what's wrong with 'hauled' when moving 'dead' stock?

I would guess the incident on LM were a train being driven by a DM went through a 5mph ESR at 75mph

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Which other way would you run it?

I would have thought that would be the natural way to run it, and nothing else will be operating along much of that route, so why not?

Academic now but ignore me, I've not been well this week. Yes of course, Lewes is the most obvious (and quickest route)! At the time of posting, for some reason I had Brighton in my head - clearly been reading too much about the DOO discussion!

 

[Deepgreen]

I would guess the incident on LM were a train being driven by a DM went through a 5mph ESR at 75mph

Ah - take an ESR fast enough and it won't be noticed! I thought reference was being made to an incident when moving 377442. Thanks.

 

[tsr]

Not every applicable route is being cleared for DOO(P) all at once. For those routes which are being cleared for DOO(P), for stock with bodyside cameras, DOO tests are taking place on a "rolling programme" basis. Some of the test runs are quite extensive in terms of time taken, and I'm pretty sure it would be impractical to have a sudden "blitz" of staff and trains doing the testing, taking up a lot of pathing space and workforce hours. Testing covers a number of different items, but if you notice those schedules (available in RTT if you can find them!) where they are stopping trains for around 5-15mins at each station, these are principally devised for checking that all bodyside cameras should be able to be used under different lighting conditions. This testing sometimes has to be done numerous times, to check any subsequent improvements made as required to the lighting equipment, or because bodyside cameras on different trains can be quite variable (!), or varying according to day/night timing.

I am somewhat surprised to see they have been happening on ASLEF strike days, as up until now, I am fairly reliably informed that ASLEF union reps have apparently been released to accompany pretty much all such test trains, including special night shifts for testing camera performance in the dark. Either ASLEF reps have been breaking strike, or - and this is rather more likely - they have been dispensed with, with the new mode of operation to be introduced after testing by GTR representatives only. I can only speculate on this, but perhaps GTR have decided that as they cannot agree with ASLEF about extending DOO(P), there is no obligation for them to stick to any agreement about their reps being present during the testing programme either, or only on days when they book on as normal.

It should also be pointed out that Southern have been running empty trains between depots and sidings to balance stock, which would be irrelevant movements for passengers anyway.

 

[Deepgreen]

Not every applicable route is being cleared for DOO(P) all at once. For those routes which are being cleared for DOO(P), for stock with bodyside cameras, DOO tests are taking place on a "rolling programme" basis. Some of the test runs are quite extensive in terms of time taken, and I'm pretty sure it would be impractical to have a sudden "blitz" of staff and trains doing the testing, taking up a lot of pathing space and workforce hours. Testing covers a number of different items, but if you notice those schedules (available in RTT if you can find them!) where they are stopping trains for around 5-15mins at each station, these are principally devised for checking that all bodyside cameras should be able to be used under different lighting conditions. This testing sometimes has to be done numerous times, to check any subsequent improvements made as required to the lighting equipment, or because bodyside cameras on different trains can be quite variable (!), or varying according to day/night timing.

I am somewhat surprised to see they have been happening on ASLEF strike days, as up until now, I am fairly reliably informed that ASLEF union reps have apparently been released to accompany pretty much all such test trains, including special night shifts for testing camera performance in the dark. Either ASLEF reps have been breaking strike, or - and this is rather more likely - they have been dispensed with, with the new mode of operation to be introduced after testing by GTR representatives only. I can only speculate on this, but perhaps GTR have decided that as they cannot agree with ASLEF about extending DOO(P), there is no obligation for them to stick to any agreement about their reps being present during the testing programme either, or only on days when they book on as normal.

It should also be pointed out that Southern have been running empty trains between depots and sidings to balance stock, which would be irrelevant movements for passengers anyway.

How comforting (if true, and nothing would surprise me about GTR)!

It would be interesting to see how they would account for, say, the terrible lighting at Redhill's platform 1, where, for months now at least three light units have been broken part way along the canopied section of the platform making the area very dark indeed and unsuitable for night-time passenger use, let alone DOO! Yet another major equipment fault at Redhill which appears to be allowed to drag on for month after month with no apparent attempt at rectification or apology/information from the local 'manager' (ha!). It does make me question whether any train or platform staff have bothered to report this major fault for months.

However, I'm suddenly conscious that we (I) have strayed off the 377442 fire path here.

 

[tsr]

How comforting (if true, and nothing would surprise me about GTR)!

It would be interesting to see how they would account for, say, the terrible lighting at Redhill's platform 1, where, for months now at least three light units have been broken part way along the canopied section of the platform making the area very dark indeed and unsuitable for night-time passenger use, let alone DOO! Yet another major equipment fault at Redhill which appears to be allowed to drag on for month after month with no apparent attempt at rectification or apology/information from the local 'manager' (ha!). It does make me question whether any train or platform staff have bothered to report this major fault for months.

However, I'm suddenly conscious that we (I) have strayed off the 377442 fire path here.

Yes, we probably have strayed off that path...

...but just to clarify, as it seems there are no plans to change the method of dispatch at Redhill (mandatory platform staff dispatch for DOO trains at all times), cameras' performance in low/inconsistent lighting would be irrelevant, as they would not be used. The lighting is not ideal, to say the least, but it is safe to dispatch - and having been on that platform many, many times in the dark over the last few years, I'm afraid I don't agree that it is especially unsafe for passengers to use. (The occasional faults with subway lighting by the new lift corridor would be rather more questionable!) If you look at parts of the station such as the Platform 3 exit, you will notice some recently-installed light fittings, so it's hardly like platform lighting isn't assessed.

 

[physics34]

As a matter of fact many 377s were out on the southern network today on Doo tests

Thanks Richard

a few southern 377s we being used by Thameslink today.

 

[RichardKing]

It looks as if the damaged coach (78842) will be scrapped - after the investigation and component recovery process is complete - leaving 377 442 as a 3 car unit.

Obviously, the unit won't be back in service for a while as it requires a heavy clean.

 

[Elecman]

Nope, above 1kV to about 35-38 kV is Medium Voltage, above that is High Voltage.

It depends on which standard you use. The outfit I work for uses 35 kV.

IEC 60038 Defines the voltage bands as:-

Low Voltage 50 Volt to 1KV
Medium Voltage 1KV to 35 KV
High Voltage 35KV to 230KV
Extra High Voltage above 230KV

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It looks as if the damaged coach (78842) will be scrapped - after the investigation and component recovery process is complete - leaving 377 442 as a 3 car unit.

Obviously, the unit won't be back in service for a while as it requires a heavy clean.

Could a replacement MSO be built? I know the 387 build is different, but not that different superficially apart from the window frames

 

[aleggatta]

Could a replacement MSO be built? I know the 387 build is different, but not that different superficially apart from the window frames

More than likely yes, but at £1.45million/coach for the 377/6 order, And some new components would have compatibility issues with the original order, not being a complete unit things would get very complicated. Take on board the various 377 stock moves being talked about and that Southern can actually make use of it as a 3 car there will probably be some compensation agreement with the ROSCO and that will be that.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It looks as if the damaged coach (78842) will be scrapped - after the investigation and component recovery process is complete - leaving 377 442 as a 3 car unit.

Obviously, the unit won't be back in service for a while as it requires a heavy clean.

Had the fire caused structural damage that isn't repairable?

 

[paul1609]

It looks as if the damaged coach (78842) will be scrapped - after the investigation and component recovery process is complete - leaving 377 442 as a 3 car unit.

Obviously, the unit won't be back in service for a while as it requires a heavy clean.

Is it that easy to convert it to a 3 car unit? The 3773s are lower powered so 4 x 3 car formations don't overload the power supply. I'd imagine their would also be issues with SDO.

 

[RichardKing]

Had the fire caused structural damage that isn't repairable?

Yeah, I'm guessing that's the case.

 

[RichardKing]

Is it that easy to convert it to a 3 car unit? The 3773s are lower powered so 4 x 3 car formations don't overload the power supply. I'd imagine their would also be issues with SDO.

I'm not too sure about this - someone who is more knowledgeable on the ins and outs of 377s might be able to help.

I'm sure a 377/4 (424, I think) was made, temporarily, into a 5 car unit at one point...I remember seeing a picture of it in Lovers Walk.
It was quite a while ago, but I think it had something to do with a collision with a road vehicle on a level crossing(?)
Obviously, I could just be going 377 mad - that certainly is a potential explanation!

 

[talldave]

I can hear the PA now..."this is coach 4 of 3"!!!

 

[Deepgreen]

Is it that easy to convert it to a 3 car unit? The 3773s are lower powered so 4 x 3 car formations don't overload the power supply. I'd imagine their would also be issues with SDO.

As there are many workings using 4x377/3s at present, I don't see any issues with another 377/3 being formed, even if it has the slight extra power of a four car unit. When compared with the power drain of a 12 car 700 or 12 car 387 formation (both 6600hp), there should be no problems. SDO - the new unit would simply be in a pool of the other 377/3s and there should no impact.

 

[bengley]

I think removal of the MOSL coach is fairly simple as it doesn't have any coach-specific equipment on it.

If it was the PTOSL it would be an entirely different story as this carries a lot of equipment which the entire unit needs to operate, including the main compressor.

The MOSL is essentially a 'Slave' Driving Motor (DMOS) coach without the cab.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm not too sure about this - someone who is more knowledgeable on the ins and outs of 377s might be able to help.

I'm sure a 377/4 (424, I think) was made, temporarily, into a 5 car unit at one point...I remember seeing a picture of it in Lovers Walk.
It was quite a while ago, but I think it had something to do with a collision with a road vehicle on a level crossing(?)
Obviously, I could just be going 377 mad - that certainly is a potential explanation!

Yes - it was a test bed for the 377/6 and /7 units for pick up shoe location purposes.

 

[Deepgreen]

I think removal of the MOSL coach is fairly simple as it doesn't have any coach-specific equipment on it.

If it was the PTOSL it would be an entirely different story as this carries a lot of equipment which the entire unit needs to operate, including the main compressor.

The MOSL is essentially a 'Slave' Driving Motor (DMOS) coach without the cab.

If it's a motor coach, that will make it lower-powered anyway and the issue won't arise.

 

[RichardKing]

Yes - it was a test bed for the 377/6 and /7 units for pick up shoe location purposes.

Ah, makes sense.
Thanks!

 

[43096]

Yeah, I'm guessing that's the case.

So you don't actually know, which casts doubt on the "it's a write off" statement.

I've lost count of how many vehicles have been written off over the years, only to "miraculously" reappear in traffic. Hence my cynicism.

As usual we'll see what happens.