377/6

[southern442]

The final plan rumored is 1tph to Milton Keynes and 1tph to Watford. That requires a total of 14 dv units with the 377/2 & /5 having a total of 38 units. Even with spares this means around 20-22 more than needed. Putting the OHLE via Hastings and Uckfield might use up these units while allowing for some train lengthening to go on. And that's without the 8x 377/7 units.

I put forward my own (incredibly adventurous) idea:

1tph:
Brighton
Haywards heath
Three bridges
Gatwick airport
East croydon
Selhurst
Norbury
Streatham
Clapham jn
all stations

(this could be extended to Birmingham if required in the future, with stops at Northampton, Rugby, Coventry, B'ham intnl and then new street)


1tph:
Croydon-Watford (all stations, and maybe extra stop at Bushey)


This could be branded as "Thameslink west" or "Thameslink 2" ​

(Note: this is not official, it is a product of my imagination )

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I saw a 377/6 leaving Epsom for Victoria just after 13.10 this afternoon ( a Sunday ); this being the first day of the new timetable I am wondering if that indicates that squadron service has started?

 

[southern442]

I saw a 377/6 leaving Epsom for Victoria just after 13.10 this afternoon ( a Sunday ); this being the first day of the new timetable I am wondering if that indicates that squadron service has started?

Well I was on the BML suburban territory today and I didn't see a single one.

 

[TEW]

Expect tomorrow will see full service proper start, with today being used to get units in the right places for tomorrow. I'm not sure how many of the 24 377/6 diagrams will be covered by the fleet tomorrow, is it 16? There are also apparently 8 456 diagrams continuing for now, until the full fleet is in service.

 

[southern442]

Expect tomorrow will see full service proper start, with today being used to get units in the right places for tomorrow. I'm not sure how many of the 24 377/6 diagrams will be covered by the fleet tomorrow, is it 16? There are also apparently 8 456 diagrams continuing for now, until the full fleet is in service.

Will there be any diagrams that are currently 377's that will be worked by 377/6's?

 

[Class377/5]

In the final diagrams there are only 7 units diagrammed to be in service on a Sunday with all of them working between Victoria and Sutton/Epsom/Dorking.

13:17 2E75 Epsom to Victoria is diagram 606 so we can expect that to be repeated from now on.

In the final diagrams you get

Mon-Fri - 24 units
Sat - 8 units
Sun - 7 units

 

[southern442]

In the final diagrams there are only 7 units diagrammed to be in service on a Sunday with all of them working between Victoria and Sutton/Epsom/Dorking.

13:17 2E75 Epsom to Victoria is diagram 606 so we can expect that to be repeated from now on.

In the final diagrams you get

Mon-Fri - 24 units
Sat - 8 units
Sun - 7 units

How many of the 24 weekday diagrams are Epsom downs/Sutton trains? Do these diagrams cover all the E. Downs services? And will there be any weekday E. Grinstead services timetabled to be 377/6's?

 

[JonathanH]

377609 2010 Victoria to Dorking

377608 and 377623 sat in platform 15 - not currently shown as any service.

377624 and 377625 just arrived from Sutton in platform 16

377625 going back out as 2040 to Dorking.

377620 and 377611 (which you will remember spent the week in Horsham) arrived from Sutton at 2031.

 

[TEW]

There are a lot of 377/6s to Epsom Downs and Sutton, but not all the Epsom Downs trains. There aren't any 377/6s to East Grinstead.
377/6s to Epsom Downs (I've only listed down services, they all form up services back from Epsom Downs too,):
2U03 0553 NWD-EPD 10
2R44 1123 VIC-EPD 10
2R60 1323 VIC-EPD 10
2R76 1523 VIC-EPD 5
2R80 1553 VIC-EPD 10
2R90 1701 VIC-EPD 10
2R94 1733 VIC-EPD 10
2R98 1803 VIC-EPD 10
2S56 1906 VIC-EPD 5
2S58 1936 VIC-EPD 10
2S62 2036 VIC-EPD 10
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Will there be any diagrams that are currently 377's that will be worked by 377/6's?

The diagrams have changed a lot, so the new 377/6 diagrams often weren't complete diagrams before. Services are forming different services at London Victoria. But there are individual services which will be operated by 377/6s which were previously 377s.

 

[Class377/5]

377609 2010 Victoria to Dorking

377608 and 377623 sat in platform 15 - not currently shown as any service.

377624 and 377625 just arrived from Sutton in platform 16

Curious, must be on altered workings as the 10 car working from Sutton isn't a planned working.

Sunday 10 car workings will be (may not be straightaway)...

21:19 2R10 Victoria - Sutton
22:10 2S25 Sutton - Victoria
23:19 2R18 Victoria - Epsom

22:40 2E28 Victoria -Dorking

 

[TEW]

Are there any mainline/Brighton workings at weekends or have they been stopped now?

 

[Class377/5]

Are there any mainline/Brighton workings at weekends or have they been stopped now?

Should be stopped as its all metro work/Dorking services now.

However I'm curious what is planned for the holiday period with the BML closed and fast East Grinstead services from Victoria calling at East Croydon only.

 

[TEW]

Indeed, you'd think some 10-car workings to East Grinstead might be useful in that period. It was originally said when the 377/6s were ordered that they'd be used on mainline workings at weekend though, but with their interiors they aren't really suited to it.

There is the one weekday mainline working too. 2C33, 1932 Horsham-London Victoria via Gatwick Airport is a 10-car 377/6.

 

[Class377/5]

Indeed, you'd think some 10-car workings to East Grinstead might be useful in that period. It was originally said when the 377/6s were ordered that they'd be used on mainline workings at weekend though, but with their interiors they aren't really suited to it.

There is the one weekday mainline working too. 2C33, 1932 Horsham-London Victoria via Gatwick Airport is a 10-car 377/6.

That's what I'm thinking. However is the line cleared for 442s?

I'd forgotten about that one special daily run. Having done the 377/6 all the way to Brighton in both directions I'll have to try and ride that service.

 

[JonathanH]

Continuing the sightings - 377612 2S17 2010 Sutton to London Victoria

and finally to confuse matters further, a 377/6 just came through Windmill Bridge Junction on the fast showing London Victoria. This seems to be 2044 from Horsham via Gatwick to Victoria(?). (Distinguished by front marker light and destination box.)

Obviously lots of variation to get them in the right place for tomorrow.

 

[TEW]

That's what I'm thinking. However is the line cleared for 442s?

I don't know. The information on the Network Rail website on route clearance is from 2009, so 442s aren't even shown. Would there be crew who sign 442s and East Grinstead? Thinking particularly of guards since the majority of 442s are DOO.

 

[Class377/5]

I don't know. The information on the Network Rail website on route clearance is from 2009, so 442s aren't even shown. Would there be crew who sign 442s and East Grinstead? Thinking particularly of guards since the majority of 442s are DOO.

Only asking as the workings I've seen are 12 car south of the block so wondering is there any use for the 442. Tho with the frequency they catch fire might be best to give the units the week off.

Not 100% sure the 442s can operate DOO. Might be more trouble than its worth.

Could be the final 8 units/diagrams won't be used until January giving Southern 4 10 cars to use. All theory of course.

 

[Peter Sarf]

377609 2010 Victoria to Dorking

377608 and 377623 sat in platform 15 - not currently shown as any service.

377624 and 377625 just arrived from Sutton in platform 16

377625 going back out as 2040 to Dorking.

377620 and 377611 (which you will remember spent the week in Horsham) arrived from Sutton at 2031.

I infer that 20 units are now in-service/usable - thats including 608, 623, 624 and 625 as seems to be the case above.
Note that IF 608 and 623 are merely on a test run then I would expect the later delivered 624 and 625 to NOT yet be on a service train. I already expected (post on 05/12/2013) that 608 and 623 were soon to be in service so makes it all more likely to be 20 units.
Only two testing or awaiting test (including 610 which seems to be dragging its heels).
Only Four left to deliver.
I'll go update my list.

 

[TEW]

Not 100% sure the 442s can operate DOO. Might be more trouble than its worth.

442s definitely can operate DOO, although that's only since they moved to Southern. The vast majority of their services are DOO.

 

[notadriver]

Only their suburban services and fast Brighton Main line trains are DOO. Everything else has a guard.

 

[Fincra5]

442's are only DOO at Dispatched stations.. Any where its Cameras or Mirrors only a Guard is provided.

 

[TEW]

Indeed, but the nearly all 442 work is Brighton work. They only have one trip a day in each direction to Eastbourne.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

442's are only DOO at Dispatched stations.. Any where its Cameras or Mirrors only a Guard is provided.

I guess that means some of the peak services need guards as they call at stations without platform staff whereas in the day they only call at Victoria, Clapham, East Croydon, Gatwick and Brighton.

 

[causton]

442's are only DOO at Dispatched stations.. Any where its Cameras or Mirrors only a Guard is provided.

Is this the same reason why 12 car trains are DOO? Because mirrors/cameras won't cover the last 4?

 

[JonathanH]

Continuing the sightings - 377612 2S17 2010 Sutton to London Victoria

and finally to confuse matters further, a 377/6 just came through Windmill Bridge Junction on the fast showing London Victoria. This seems to be 2044 from Horsham via Gatwick to Victoria(?). (Distinguished by front marker light and destination box.)

Obviously lots of variation to get them in the right place for tomorrow.

Looking at Realtimetrains, this sighting on the Victoria to Horsham services does seem to make sense with a swap off Victoria to Dorking trains earlier this afternoon. I reckon the one I saw worked:

2R00 0649 London Victoria to Sutton 0734 (not certain about this)

2E11 0743 Sutton to London Victoria 0818
(This should have started at Dorking but was cancelled due to overrunning engineering work)
2E14 0840 London Victoria to Dorking 0942
2E21 0953 Dorking to London Victoria 1052
2E26 1110 London Victoria to Dorking 1215
2E31 1221 Dorking to London Victoria 1322
2E36 1340 London Victoria to Dorking 1445
2E41 1453 Dorking to London Victoria 1552
Then swapped to
2C44 1608 London Victoria to Horsham 1712
2C49 1744 Horsham to London Victoria 1850
2C56 1908 London Victoria to Horsham 2012
2C61 2044 Horsham to London Victoria 2148
Then another swap to
2L66 2155 London Victoria to East Grinstead 2250 (6 late depature)
2L69 2309 East Grinstead to London Victoria 0008

As with everything today, this is a one-off.

PS - note that there is a bug with the feeds used for Realtraintimes where the feeds don't pick up all departures from platform 19 at Victoria. They manage arrivals but departures from platform 19 don't go bold.

 

[causton]

PS - note that there is a bug with the feeds used for Realtraintimes where the feeds don't pick up all departures from platform 19 at Victoria. They manage arrivals but departures from platform 19 don't go bold.

I have reported this to the relevant person, who says it is due to the multiple signals and routes from platform 19. However it is being looked into

 

[JonathanH]

I infer that 20 units are now in-service/usable - thats including 608, 623, 624 and 625 as seems to be the case above.
Note that IF 608 and 623 are merely on a test run then I would expect the later delivered 624 and 625 to NOT yet be on a service train. I already expected (post on 05/12/2013) that 608 and 623 were soon to be in service so makes it all more likely to be 20 units.
Only two testing or awaiting test (including 610 which seems to be dragging its heels).
Only Four left to deliver.
I'll go update my list.

All four (608/623/624/625) have definitely been in service.

377608 and 377623 appear to have started service on the following

5E47 1637 Selhurst T&RSMD to Balham 1700 (arrived 1720)
2E47 1708 Balham to London Victoria 1722 (departed 1722)
This should have started from Dorking but commenced from Balham
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W86721/2013/12/08/advanced
2S52 1755 London Victoria to Sutton 1848
2R49 1855 Sutton to London Victoria 1935 (arrived 2003)

The 1955 London Victoria to Sutton and return was then cancelled. The next working for at least one of the units appears to have then been

2S68 2157 London Victoria to Sutton 2248
2R17 2255 Sutton to London Victoria 2335
2S28 2354 London Victoria to Norwood Junction 0028
5S28 0029 Norwood Junction to Selhurst T&RSMD 0045

So, it doesn't look like these ones (608 and 623) were due out today.

 

[Fincra5]

Is this the same reason why 12 car trains are DOO? Because mirrors/cameras won't cover the last 4?

Southern drivers have no agreement to 'Look back' or use the Mirrors. Even a 4 Car, if its DOO and the Cameras fail a guard needs to be provided. None of the DOO equipment is fit for anything bar 319s, as it was intended.
I believe the 10 car max DOO is just SN agreement. FCC do 12 Cars.

I still haven't worked a 6 Series yet but some guards are saying they feel more cheap and cramped than the normal 377s

 

[Class377/5]

Indeed, but the nearly all 442 work is Brighton work. They only have one trip a day in each direction to Eastbourne.

I guess that means some of the peak services need guards as they call at stations without platform staff whereas in the day they only call at Victoria, Clapham, East Croydon, Gatwick and Brighton.

Don't forget Hayward Heath, Three Bridges and London Bridge all have dispatch staff, all have seen 442 services.

Southern drivers have no agreement to 'Look back' or use the Mirrors. Even a 4 Car, if its DOO and the Cameras fail a guard needs to be provided. None of the DOO equipment is fit for anything bar 319s, as it was intended.
I believe the 10 car max DOO is just SN agreement. FCC do 12 Cars.

I still haven't worked a 6 Series yet but some guards are saying they feel more cheap and cramped than the normal 377s

Curious if they will rip out the DOO once the 319s are gone. Would save NR a fair bit of money.

Both sides of FCC have DOO 12 cars but everyone else has a guard for 12 cars doesn't it? DOO 12 car agreement on routes served by the 700s is part of the TSGN franchise agreement. Means Horsham & Brighton are on the list, possibility others.

The 377/6 do have that air about them.

 

[sarahj]

There were 3 full sets at Victoria last night around 21.00. Me and a couple of drivers were taking a peek at them. Loved the little light that lights up the steps when you open a drivers cab door.

10-12 Car 377's on the main line must have a guard. The agreement is complex, but FCC drivers have thrown a spanner in the works by agreeing DOO on 12 cars. The FCC 12 must only call at stations on the BML that has dispatch, but by agreeing to this the FCC drivers have set a president(?), which the Dft liked the look of with their call for all trains to be DOO on the core route on the new TL franchise, thus putting our jobs as guards/conductors on the line. Thanks guys.

As for the 442 question. The ones that are the extended Gatwick Express's run with a guard between Brighton and Gatwick as they call at stations without dispatch such as Preston Park, Hassocks, Three Bridges. They then work fast to Victoria without us. The 442's that run from London Bridge has a guard all the way.

 

[Class377/5]

There were 3 full sets at Victoria last night around 21.00. Me and a couple of drivers were taking a peek at them. Loved the little light that lights up the steps when you open a drivers cab door.

10-12 Car 377's on the main line must have a guard. The agreement is complex, but FCC drivers have thrown a spanner in the works by agreeing DOO on 12 cars. The FCC 12 must only call at stations on the BML that has dispatch, but by agreeing to this the FCC drivers have set a president(?), which the Dft liked the look of with their call for all trains to be DOO on the core route on the new TL franchise, thus putting our jobs as guards/conductors on the line. Thanks guys.

As for the 442 question. The ones that are the extended Gatwick Express's run with a guard between Brighton and Gatwick as they call at stations without dispatch such as Preston Park, Hassocks, Three Bridges. They then work fast to Victoria without us. The 442's that run from London Bridge has a guard all the way.

Just point there is no agreement for FCC 12 cars to only call at dispatched stations unless there is a unit failure. 12 cars with working cameras are permitted to stop at all stations as required.

However its not the TL drivers but the GN drivers who signed up to this with stock without cameras so when it came to TL and camera equipped units they had to agree.

There is always the chance that the agreement could just be for the Thameslink services of course (as no discussions have yet started). However there is supposed to be a need for more drivers so why not use guards to fill this gap?

Although we are getting off the topic of the 377/6 now.